LaFlippin,
Why don't we put all our cards on the table. You are a Tom House guy. Correct? You have been certified by Mr. House. Correct? You know that Dr Marshall has nothing but contempt for Mr. House. Correct?
why Mr. House has pilfered 40 years of Dr Marshall's work by taking Dr Marshall's Maxline Pronation Curve and dressing it up as his Karate Chop curve?
If Dr Marshall practices Voodooo science why is your boy so eager to copy it? Is he, like you, logging onto drmikemarshall.com every Sunday to see what else he can "discover"?"
What are you going to say when house makes another miraculous mechanical discovery towards Marshall tenets? Remember he is finally using High-speed video another thing Marshall pioneered for mechanics 40 years ago.
Marshall actually likes the plagiarism as long as it helps injury proof pitchers!
TPM,
”Honestly I really don't care about who uses whose theories, however, the MM debate is so confusing.”
The hate club wants it that way!!
“You can't keep knocking down injuries and state they can prevented when there is no proof that they have been prevented. Right?”
As I have stated before, I have Kids throwing with Traditional mechanics and Marshall mechanics. All of the traditional kids have all of the problems that every other traditional pitcher has and none of the Marshall kids have any. That’s proof enough for me. I also pitch to batters and was a pitcher myself, 12 years ago my arm was about dead from pitching BP 3 times a week at about 300 pitches each time. Since I started throwing with Marshalls tenets I pitch between 600 to 1,200 balls every day 1/3 rd of which are maximal effort. Marshall has gone on record and explained in detail how and why each injury is caused and when as one of the leading kinesiological PhD’s on throwing related injuries in the world. Nobody else has gone on record with this detail He not only told me what was going to happen he proved it to me by challenging me to give it a shot, I did and to my surprise it worked and saved my own career from having to use a pitching machine.
“And I do think that people do listen and try to understand, but according to my understanding many of what is claimed is NOT new to the pitching world.”
Give me an example?
”There are many pitchers who have issues like Sparks, try to rehab without surgery but sometimes in the end something has to be done (as Sparks did), and a tear repair is NOT considered a major injury but normal wear and tear on the shoulder, correct?”
The UCL is on the inside of the elbow.
“Most likely if he had doen what needed to be done sooner he could still be pitching, right? Waiting so long may have done more harm that good, no one can prove that, right?”
No, he was still exposed as a Marshall pitcher and most traditional pitching coaches feel threatened by Marshalls mechanics like LaFlippen but that is changing as we speak!!
"And I have to agree with others, if this is such a great way to prevent injury, why, why don't we see any of it on the higher level?"
Because the higher levels are a good old boys club who know better.
“Where is the player with superior velocity and control?”
I have many and there are others that I do not deal with, one instructor teaches in Seattle. In fact when he was taught by Marshall personally with out the benefit of the rigorous training with in a few days he was throwing 96 mph but did not want to pursue a baseball career, he just wanted to start an academy.
“most of what can prevent injuries is a common denominator among all theories, good mechanics, good judgment which includes proper rest and pitch counts, proper throwing mechanics of certain pitches that can hurt the elbow/shoulder, etc. Would you not agree?”
No, Traditional mechanics are not good in any form and will eventually break you down. Rest = Atrophy, pitch counts to prevent injury reside only with traditional mechanics
“Are you stating that a young pitcher can go out with MM "tenents" and throw innings everyday and remain healthy? I think that's great, however can you prove it?”
Yes, if you do not injure yourself while pitching the only thing limiting you is fatigue. I have already proven it to my self, I have done the work and this is the only way to prove it, only time will tell if there is merit, I’ve now witnessed twelve years of it. After a long maximal effort game a recovery day would be prudent even with Marshall’s mechanics for substrate energy restore.
”As far as I can tell, a pitcher really needs velocity at some point to dominate. A pitcher throwing lower velo may only get by with years of experience (take Maddux)”
Maddux used to be capable of throwing 94 when ever he wanted but he kept it at a comfortable 86 to 88 with an occasional low 90’s sneaker maybe 5 times a game. He uses Marshalls first tenet on 3 of his pitches “pronation”. Smart man. Movement is King not velocity at the higher levels HS and up.
MTS,
“We'd ask Kharma where is the beef?”
Prove it?
“Where are Marshall pitchers with superior velocity and control?”
I have many and would love to give you their names and schools and teams but with your subversive history I don’t think trusting you would be prudent.
“I don't seem them playing Division I college.”
I have many there; you mean you really do not know how to analyze Marshalls upper half mechanics with out the lower half added in? Then how can anything negative you say have any merit? I’ll bet it threw you for a loop when I showed up, someone who actually has performed and taught these mechanics to youth and young adults for 10 years now? Just think of all the lies you have told in past posts about this subject with nobody there to refute your poison. You were successful in muting Kharma for what reason I have not been told or have any evidence for, so it looks like he must have really worked you over mentally to get you and others all riled up. There must have been a lot of heat in that kitchen? I find it interesting that your little hate club can get away with personal attacks on a constant basis here and everywhere else but if a Marshall supporter pops off you guys take your baseball and go home with it.
Who’s the moderator here?
These guys keep bringing up Kharma quotes that cannot be crosschecked.
How can I read what he said, it couldn’t have been all bad?
Bobbleheaddoll,
“YB you didn't have to post Oleary's video. That ruined my appetite for lunch.”
“marhall Oleary and all the rest are trying to separate themselves from the others to make a buck. Nothing more , nothing less.” “Oleary is a fraud.”
That was not I, no need to apologize! To me that video was made to subvert Marshalls mechanics by doing them incorrectly the same way many posters make claims that have no truth attached to them. I see Chris as a concerned father who is trying to find out how to guide his kids through the muck. Him trying to make a buck off his web site is what hundreds of others who are none credentialed are also doing and the last time I checked we all still live in America. I do not like it when he states mechanical claims by Marshall that he gets wrong but I live with it and try to let him know the truth is. I don’t understand why people make claims of illegitimacy with out even testing or understanding the subject fully.
“MM is just misguided by a thurst for money.”
This is the kind of statement I am talking about when you know the only thing for sale at Marshalls site is his DVD and training aids. The training aids have no profit built in and the video on the DVD is also available for free along with all of his 40 years of research!
“Cult yes.”
I am a practitioner not a mindless cultist and if these training methods and mechanics did not work I would not have given them to hundreds of players!
“Scam yes.”
It’s only a scam if it does not work and then perpetuated.
It not only works, it works extremely well!!
YB,
My son pronates his pitches and has all of his life and that was way before any of this stuff started. Yes I agree that Maddux has mechanics one should emulate, but did he work under MM?
Throwing BP to batters is a lot different than pitching.
Done.
Keep is on a good note everyone. Thanks.
My son pronates his pitches and has all of his life and that was way before any of this stuff started. Yes I agree that Maddux has mechanics one should emulate, but did he work under MM?
Throwing BP to batters is a lot different than pitching.
Done.
Keep is on a good note everyone. Thanks.
YB scam was in reference to Oleary who hasn't got an athletic bone in his body. I venture the only sport he might have played is rec cricket.
When I read your accusations about thing like the tomahawk CB I just have to doubt any credibility. That has been around since before adam and eve. If MM invented it he would be one of the biggest contributors of arm injury in young pitchers. My son was taught it by a MLB head scout when he was 15. It is far more stressful than the CB he was throwing very effectively . It induced a sharper late break but it was more bone jarring with its sudden snap at the release.
I find it amazing that anyone claims to have invented anything in terms of pitching. It is more like analysis and interpretation. I have no like or dislike of MM but the more you spout gharbage the more I know he is just another marketer of false info feeding on the ignorance of parents.
When I read your accusations about thing like the tomahawk CB I just have to doubt any credibility. That has been around since before adam and eve. If MM invented it he would be one of the biggest contributors of arm injury in young pitchers. My son was taught it by a MLB head scout when he was 15. It is far more stressful than the CB he was throwing very effectively . It induced a sharper late break but it was more bone jarring with its sudden snap at the release.
I find it amazing that anyone claims to have invented anything in terms of pitching. It is more like analysis and interpretation. I have no like or dislike of MM but the more you spout gharbage the more I know he is just another marketer of false info feeding on the ignorance of parents.
TPM,
Thank you for your efforts to keep this thread on topic and civil.
On a positive note, if anyone here wishes to get a close look at one of Tom House's proteges, check out Dan Giese.
Dan has worked with Tom House since HS age in San Diego, and is probably not the most naturally gifted pitcher House has ever worked with. But Giese has a terrific work ethic and he kept at it until he got his first MLB call-up last year with the SF Giants.
This season he spent most of his time on the Yankees triple-A club, putting up excellent numbers, then he recently got the call in time to relieve Joba Chamberlain in his (Chamberlain's) first starting role.
Even more recently, Giese relieved for Chamberlain's 2nd start, against the Royals, and pitched 2 2/3 hitless innings. It was Giese's first major league win.
Way to go, Dan Giese!
Thank you for your efforts to keep this thread on topic and civil.
On a positive note, if anyone here wishes to get a close look at one of Tom House's proteges, check out Dan Giese.
Dan has worked with Tom House since HS age in San Diego, and is probably not the most naturally gifted pitcher House has ever worked with. But Giese has a terrific work ethic and he kept at it until he got his first MLB call-up last year with the SF Giants.
This season he spent most of his time on the Yankees triple-A club, putting up excellent numbers, then he recently got the call in time to relieve Joba Chamberlain in his (Chamberlain's) first starting role.
Even more recently, Giese relieved for Chamberlain's 2nd start, against the Royals, and pitched 2 2/3 hitless innings. It was Giese's first major league win.
Way to go, Dan Giese!
YB,
I stand corrected on the UCL.
I don't think there are any arguments of having movement and only bringing on the heat when you need it. I don't think that anyone would argue that. Doesn't Maddux has longevity due to his mechanics and "smarts". Is that something discovered by MM?
Does anyone take credit for Greg Maddux's success?
I have to agree with BHD, I don't see anything but analysis and interpretations.
Come back after your kids have reached success in a D1 level program and turned pro. It's pretty hard to tell what kids will be doing as adults.
JMO.
I stand corrected on the UCL.
I don't think there are any arguments of having movement and only bringing on the heat when you need it. I don't think that anyone would argue that. Doesn't Maddux has longevity due to his mechanics and "smarts". Is that something discovered by MM?
Does anyone take credit for Greg Maddux's success?
I have to agree with BHD, I don't see anything but analysis and interpretations.
Come back after your kids have reached success in a D1 level program and turned pro. It's pretty hard to tell what kids will be doing as adults.
JMO.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
I think this may have been discussed before.
While at a milb game last night one of the pitchers used overhead mechanics (you know arms over head, 12 o'clock slot). Though not as effective or as fast, it is so obvious that the forward motion of the entire body takes much stress off of the arm.
If this is typical mechanics used by pitchers of yesteryear who pitched complete games over and over and rarely sustained injuries, why is this not so common anymore. Why is this not taught? Is it because it limits your arsenal? Is this what is referred to as the classic mechanics? I asked my husband and he had no clue.
Any theories or reasons?
air conditioning. I've heard it is ruining arms. seriously.
It is something I think many students of the game discuss and wonder about. I don't know a thing about the MM's of the world - and I don't think there is a simple answer. Kids should probably long toss more, they probably shouldn't play competitively 11 out of 12 months. There is also the reward of success. Young kids (and parents) are willing to do whatever the coach wants. A child that can throw heat at 12 may be done by 15 due to cumulative injury. I'm sure the old timers didn't really start throwing until they were older teens at least.
Didn't Sandy Kolfax retire because of arm injury? I'm reading the book Head Game and there seem to be many pre-1900 pitchers whose careers ended due to injury. I've not very far into the book yet.
just a few rambling thoughts.
quote:Head Game and there seem to be many pre-1900 pitchers whose careers ended due to injury. I've not very far into the book yet.
Outstanding book...Roger Kahn was an excellent reporter, the chapter on Leo Mazzoni is a really interesting insight into the days of Maddux and Glavine, Smoltz and Avery....well worth the read, it also gives an almost complete look at Leo's philisophical view on how to approach pitching.
It would be nice to burn up a few pages talking about an interesting work such as this, instead of the old MM rehash...such a predictable arguement...I would almost recommend just taking this or any prolonged discussion on MM and pinning it to the forum...If you go back as far as this sites beginning I suspect you'll find the exact same discussion worded in a similar fashion...and still no MM'ers in MLB...of course if a guy is somewhere near MM's tenants...well as MM is universe center...he got it from Mike...The sinker, pronating....as the sun the moon and the stars Mike made it come into being.
I met an old time Yankee pitcher at a tournament a few years ago. He was quite the characture. His arm was shot and he told some interesting stories. Many of the old guys pitch through all the pain. because there ere no fixes for arm injury.
There are also no way to e the risk.insure that you won't get arm injury. There are things you can do to minimiz. I think that House understands mechanics but he is not going to save everyone from arm injury like MM AND Oleary claim. That just isn't rational given the nature of throwing a ball. It may in fact depend more on the pitchers DNA than anything else.
There are also no way to e the risk.insure that you won't get arm injury. There are things you can do to minimiz. I think that House understands mechanics but he is not going to save everyone from arm injury like MM AND Oleary claim. That just isn't rational given the nature of throwing a ball. It may in fact depend more on the pitchers DNA than anything else.
Well said, jd and BHD.
I agree completely with BHD that there are things that throwing athletes can do to minimize their risk of throwing-related injury.
55Mom nailed one of the big risk factors for pitchers--overuse, especially at a young age. Who gets overused more than a 12 yo stud pitcher who consistently throws strikes and wins games for his LL team?
Early attention to development of good mechanics can surely lower a pitcher's injury risk.
Throwing-specific conditioning and strength training, especially during the off-season, can attenuate the risk of injury.
I'm one of those nut cases that has lately come to believe that healthy nutritional practices can also have a difficult-to-quantify (but still plausible) general effect of lowering athletes' injury risk.
I agree completely with BHD that there are things that throwing athletes can do to minimize their risk of throwing-related injury.
55Mom nailed one of the big risk factors for pitchers--overuse, especially at a young age. Who gets overused more than a 12 yo stud pitcher who consistently throws strikes and wins games for his LL team?
Early attention to development of good mechanics can surely lower a pitcher's injury risk.
Throwing-specific conditioning and strength training, especially during the off-season, can attenuate the risk of injury.
I'm one of those nut cases that has lately come to believe that healthy nutritional practices can also have a difficult-to-quantify (but still plausible) general effect of lowering athletes' injury risk.
Bobbleheaddoll,
“My son was taught it by a MLB head scout when he was 15. It is far more stressful than the CB he was throwing very effectively . It induced a sharper late break but it was more bone jarring with its sudden snap at the release.”
Your son was taught the classic supinated curve, very injurious, Marshall teaches a pronated curve, non-injurious, Houses new karate chop curve tries to get pronation? But fails anyway, he will just have to read Marshall’s stuff a little closer.
I find it amazing that anyone claims to have invented anything in terms of pitching.
Marshall has invented many new innovations in baseball pitching, many used by Javelin throwers. One of Marshall’s main tenets is throwing “inside of vertical”(he also coined this phrase and many more) just like Javelin throwers, from this center of mass position you can pitch Marshall’s pronated Cutter, pronated Slider and pronated Curve all Marshall inventions. It is very difficult to do these things from the traditional driveline outside of vertical. Inventions have to start somewhere.
“I have no like or dislike of MM”
You would not know it by your posts.
“but the more you spout gharbage”
Be specific, what garbage?
“the more I know he is just another marketer of false info feeding on the ignorance of parents.”
This sounds like one of your dislikes?
He is the single best thing to happen to the parents that follow his advice ever. No body else has gone on record and stated exactly how every throwing related injury occurs not even Ortho’s, they just tell you threw it to much, wrong!! I can’t wait until the medical profession makes it mandatory for Ortho’s to take kinesiology classes because everybody believes what they say which lands you back on the operating table
If you do not change the way you throw.
“It may in fact depend more on the pitchers DNA than anything else.”
May don’t work in science! There are some genetic problems but most of them are things like bone density problems and instead of the UCL giving way the humerus breaks catastrophically but this is few and far between.
TPM,
”My son pronates his pitches and has all of his life and that was way before any of this stuff started.”
Your son pitches using the traditional pitching motion? This means he supinates his pitches other than ball arm side tailing fastballs then when his forearm reaches it’s elastic point of supination it involuntarily pronates back after release, to late
The only way you can tell if someone pronates his actual driveline is with High-speed film or video (240 frames or better) because of the ballistic nature of pitching at that point.
“Yes I agree that Maddux has mechanics one should emulate, but did he work under MM?”
No, he worked under Leo Mazzone who worked with Marshall a long time ago.
But I’m not saying Mazone or Marshall had anything to do with Maddux’s pitch picking.
“Done”
Not so fast.
“Come back after your kids have reached success in a D1 level program and turned pro.”
This has happened already many times, I guess your really not reading my posts.
Now your telling me I’m done, when I’m already back.
“My son was taught it by a MLB head scout when he was 15. It is far more stressful than the CB he was throwing very effectively . It induced a sharper late break but it was more bone jarring with its sudden snap at the release.”
Your son was taught the classic supinated curve, very injurious, Marshall teaches a pronated curve, non-injurious, Houses new karate chop curve tries to get pronation? But fails anyway, he will just have to read Marshall’s stuff a little closer.
I find it amazing that anyone claims to have invented anything in terms of pitching.
Marshall has invented many new innovations in baseball pitching, many used by Javelin throwers. One of Marshall’s main tenets is throwing “inside of vertical”(he also coined this phrase and many more) just like Javelin throwers, from this center of mass position you can pitch Marshall’s pronated Cutter, pronated Slider and pronated Curve all Marshall inventions. It is very difficult to do these things from the traditional driveline outside of vertical. Inventions have to start somewhere.
“I have no like or dislike of MM”
You would not know it by your posts.
“but the more you spout gharbage”
Be specific, what garbage?
“the more I know he is just another marketer of false info feeding on the ignorance of parents.”
This sounds like one of your dislikes?
He is the single best thing to happen to the parents that follow his advice ever. No body else has gone on record and stated exactly how every throwing related injury occurs not even Ortho’s, they just tell you threw it to much, wrong!! I can’t wait until the medical profession makes it mandatory for Ortho’s to take kinesiology classes because everybody believes what they say which lands you back on the operating table
If you do not change the way you throw.
“It may in fact depend more on the pitchers DNA than anything else.”
May don’t work in science! There are some genetic problems but most of them are things like bone density problems and instead of the UCL giving way the humerus breaks catastrophically but this is few and far between.
TPM,
”My son pronates his pitches and has all of his life and that was way before any of this stuff started.”
Your son pitches using the traditional pitching motion? This means he supinates his pitches other than ball arm side tailing fastballs then when his forearm reaches it’s elastic point of supination it involuntarily pronates back after release, to late
The only way you can tell if someone pronates his actual driveline is with High-speed film or video (240 frames or better) because of the ballistic nature of pitching at that point.
“Yes I agree that Maddux has mechanics one should emulate, but did he work under MM?”
No, he worked under Leo Mazzone who worked with Marshall a long time ago.
But I’m not saying Mazone or Marshall had anything to do with Maddux’s pitch picking.
“Done”
Not so fast.
“Come back after your kids have reached success in a D1 level program and turned pro.”
This has happened already many times, I guess your really not reading my posts.
Now your telling me I’m done, when I’m already back.
YB,
I said I was done.
Which of your players are pitching at D1 or pro players?
I said I was done.
Which of your players are pitching at D1 or pro players?
YB you have to be a little more intelligent to understand the meaning of disliking some one and thinking their stuff is garbage. I would have to know MM to dislike him. His stuff is pure garbage.
MM didn't invent anything . He took what was traditional and made changes that are possibly less injurious but a whole lot more ineffective.
Having excelled in sports invoved in throwing things I know what works and how I generated power. You machanics make it impossible to max out. Besides looking absolutely silly it doesn't allow you to be competetive.
I can dislike a theory but I have no dislike of the man. I could like Houses theories but I may dislike the man.
MM didn't invent anything . He took what was traditional and made changes that are possibly less injurious but a whole lot more ineffective.
Having excelled in sports invoved in throwing things I know what works and how I generated power. You machanics make it impossible to max out. Besides looking absolutely silly it doesn't allow you to be competetive.
I can dislike a theory but I have no dislike of the man. I could like Houses theories but I may dislike the man.
quote:May don’t work in science!
---This is yet another clear sign (as if any more signs were needed) of the utter disregard Marshall and his cult followers have for Western scientific methodology.
"May" not only works in science, it is one of the key words in real scientific inquiry and discourse. Real scientists don't bluster and blather with 100% guarantees of future results--that is one of the surest signs of rank charlatanism.
Real scientists construct hypotheses--theories that "may" explain reality--and then work diligently to discover the flaws that either refine or outright disprove their hypotheses.
Real scientists provide adequate evidence to support their claims and they don't try to cover up evidence that would weaken their theories.
Mike Marshall constructs rickety hypotheses, uses an egregiously poor grasp of freshman-level physics and a thick veneer of medical-speak to bolster his many preposterous claims, then he calls it a done deal.
In essence, Mike Marshall's pitching theories are "proven beyond a shadow of doubt" because Mike Marshall himself claims he is the only one capable of understanding pitching--thus, he authorizes himself to "prove" his theories without providing any evidence that they work.
TPM,
You can’t say your done and the ask me a question!
“Which of your players are pitching at D1 or pro players?”
That’s their business, I’ll ask all of them if they want to read this stuff and respond.
Talk to you soon.
You can’t say your done and the ask me a question!
“Which of your players are pitching at D1 or pro players?”
That’s their business, I’ll ask all of them if they want to read this stuff and respond.
Talk to you soon.
ok I am not done,
But this to me is yuor problem, you don't want to give their names, but you are taking credit for something that has no credibility by letting us know who is who out there.
Don't get me wrong, ask Laflippin, JDfromFL, we have had some discussions but what they say and how it is presented makes sense and I know who they are.
All you say is everyone is against MM and don't like him but BHD brings up a good point, he never said he didn't like him it's his stuff he doesn't like.
I don't know half the stuff you all might know but I do know that no one invented pitching and yes thankfully many have contributed ideas and theories as to what may help limit injuries but no one, NO one can lay claim that they can without any shadow of a doubt without proof. That's where you got me. That was what I meant by I was done. How can there be a discussion when there is not PROOF?
And you throwing 500+BP pitches a day is no proof, IMO.
Other than that I don't know the man I don't know you (but you know me) and that's where the difference lies. It's easy to hide behind a name on a mb and shout out whatever floats your boat.
But this to me is yuor problem, you don't want to give their names, but you are taking credit for something that has no credibility by letting us know who is who out there.
Don't get me wrong, ask Laflippin, JDfromFL, we have had some discussions but what they say and how it is presented makes sense and I know who they are.
All you say is everyone is against MM and don't like him but BHD brings up a good point, he never said he didn't like him it's his stuff he doesn't like.
I don't know half the stuff you all might know but I do know that no one invented pitching and yes thankfully many have contributed ideas and theories as to what may help limit injuries but no one, NO one can lay claim that they can without any shadow of a doubt without proof. That's where you got me. That was what I meant by I was done. How can there be a discussion when there is not PROOF?
And you throwing 500+BP pitches a day is no proof, IMO.
Other than that I don't know the man I don't know you (but you know me) and that's where the difference lies. It's easy to hide behind a name on a mb and shout out whatever floats your boat.
I just love how a simple question can lead to all this MM fun.
BOF,
I agree.
Here's what I was talking about when I asked the original question, whatever that was.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixTNIFlBJZQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm8oHYRS6hA&feature=related
I agree.
Here's what I was talking about when I asked the original question, whatever that was.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixTNIFlBJZQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm8oHYRS6hA&feature=related
Seeing Gibson reminds me of a story my son's pitching instructor told us. He had been taught by his HS coach who was concerned with holding runners to have a quick short move to the plate, almost a slide step. When Gibson saw it during spring training he said "What the bleep are you doing? Get your knee up, turn your bleeping *** to the plate and throw the bleeping ball hard."
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
BOF,
I agree.
Here's what I was talking about when I asked the original question, whatever that was.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixTNIFlBJZQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm8oHYRS6hA&feature=related
What great video.
If the House advocates (and everyone who thinks falling off to the side is evil
) saw Gibson throwing like that, they would immediately have to "fix" his throwing problem/mechanics.
One video mentions how Koufax pitched through pain over and over.
So it might be obvious to the discussions about why some pitchers lasted longer, pitchers DID have major injuries but obviously with no fixes they just found other ways to deal with it all. It might be that in those days you COULD get away with it, maybe not in today's game?
So it might be obvious to the discussions about why some pitchers lasted longer, pitchers DID have major injuries but obviously with no fixes they just found other ways to deal with it all. It might be that in those days you COULD get away with it, maybe not in today's game?
quote:Originally posted by RobV:
If the House advocates (and everyone who thinks falling off to the side is evil
What's the purpose of your accusation?
Just saying that the way Gibson threw the ball would most likely be viewed as problematic by some.
There are those that think falling off to the side is a problem.
There are those that think falling off to the side is a problem.
I disagree, RobV.
In the early 90's, Randy Johnson was having a number of well-chronicled problems with his control. Tom House was head pitching coach for the Texas Rangers at the time and at some point when the Rangers cclub was visiting Seattle Johnson asked House and Nolan Ryan for help with it.
House looked at his delivery, and realized that RJ was spinning off his stride-foot heel toward the 3rd base side in his delivery. He and Ryan met with Johnson and worked with him on some fixes for it and that helped him solve his individual problem at the time. Johnson, in his 2003 book, publicly credits House and Ryan for "turning his career around" with the advice.
The key point, which should not go missing from this discussion, is: House/NPA don't "fix" pitchers for the sake of making them look identical, and they don't "fix" things that are not broken.
I don't think that House/NPA would teach a young pitcher to emulate Bob Gibson's signature style, but neither would they "correct" his style in a pitcher that was obviously having success.
Bob Gibson had outstanding control over a long, productive career so, by definition, falling off to the side was not a problem for him.
On the other hand, whether one should try to teach the Gibson model to all young pitchers is debatable at best--I personally wouldn't go that route.
In the early 90's, Randy Johnson was having a number of well-chronicled problems with his control. Tom House was head pitching coach for the Texas Rangers at the time and at some point when the Rangers cclub was visiting Seattle Johnson asked House and Nolan Ryan for help with it.
House looked at his delivery, and realized that RJ was spinning off his stride-foot heel toward the 3rd base side in his delivery. He and Ryan met with Johnson and worked with him on some fixes for it and that helped him solve his individual problem at the time. Johnson, in his 2003 book, publicly credits House and Ryan for "turning his career around" with the advice.
The key point, which should not go missing from this discussion, is: House/NPA don't "fix" pitchers for the sake of making them look identical, and they don't "fix" things that are not broken.
I don't think that House/NPA would teach a young pitcher to emulate Bob Gibson's signature style, but neither would they "correct" his style in a pitcher that was obviously having success.
Bob Gibson had outstanding control over a long, productive career so, by definition, falling off to the side was not a problem for him.
On the other hand, whether one should try to teach the Gibson model to all young pitchers is debatable at best--I personally wouldn't go that route.
Right.
Falling off to the side causing one to "fly open", hence creating control issues is a problem that probably should be addressed.
But if a pitcher throws that way, and does not have any control problems, or arm problems, then he should be left alone.
I guess that's what my point was.
Falling off to the side causing one to "fly open", hence creating control issues is a problem that probably should be addressed.
But if a pitcher throws that way, and does not have any control problems, or arm problems, then he should be left alone.
I guess that's what my point was.
Okay, I guess we are on the same page after all, RobV.
The people who seek advice from House usually fall into one of two distinct groups: They are either trying to generally develop and refine their individual mechanics (beginning level youth pitchers) or they are trying to identify and correct something specific about their individual motion that is not working optimally for them(experienced pitchers).
The people who seek advice from House usually fall into one of two distinct groups: They are either trying to generally develop and refine their individual mechanics (beginning level youth pitchers) or they are trying to identify and correct something specific about their individual motion that is not working optimally for them(experienced pitchers).
See now there ya go, I read that about Johnson in his book years ago. So I know that to be a fact with proof as to who helped him and it was Johnson who made the claim not Ryan and House.
It's those type of things that add the credibility.
It's those type of things that add the credibility.
Thanks for clarifying things, guys. I didn't care for what I thought was an uninformed and unfair generalization about House and those of us who agree with his teachings. Certainly there are coaches/instructors out there who don't know when to leave things alone but that's not true for all of us.
RobV no one said it was evil. It is down right ugly and there are always exceptions. I can watch Kaufax all day long.
I see lots of college and pros fall off. Some are successful but most aren't. Many start a game with good mechanics and start falling off and their game goes right in the toilet.
I see lots of college and pros fall off. Some are successful but most aren't. Many start a game with good mechanics and start falling off and their game goes right in the toilet.
From my son's personal experience, I would have to agree with laflippin: House advocates do not drastically change a pitcher's style to some "cookie-cutter" look.
My son's pitching instruction at our area "baseball academy" followed the principles of House and Ryan. (According to the people at the "academy", House helped start the place.) While his instructor did "tweak" his mechanics, (namely adding more core and legs to his wind-up and delivery) he never tried to change his arm slot, or have his style look like anyone else.
So far, so good. His pitching has improved, and even though he's the "work-horse" of his team, he has yet to complain of shoulder or elbow "discomfort", let alone pain.
My son's pitching instruction at our area "baseball academy" followed the principles of House and Ryan. (According to the people at the "academy", House helped start the place.) While his instructor did "tweak" his mechanics, (namely adding more core and legs to his wind-up and delivery) he never tried to change his arm slot, or have his style look like anyone else.
So far, so good. His pitching has improved, and even though he's the "work-horse" of his team, he has yet to complain of shoulder or elbow "discomfort", let alone pain.
Kin LL at 8 years of age have better mechanics than shown in that video---you have to be kidding me---and I got blasted for calling O'Leary out!!!!
TPM
You should know about that!!!
You should know about that!!!
