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18 replies

R U Hurtin the Team ?

D dswann100+ posts
I've always wondered if the age old practice of calling the umpires out, on balls and strikes had an influnce on a game. Are the umpires beyond repproach or just human and after enough B.S from the stands, will send a message.

It's not unusual to have one,two or several "super fans" berate the umpire over balls and strikes. Typically this goes on throughout the game. The formula is a simple one, any perceieved missed call(s)by an umpire against the respective team are met with cat calls by the teams "super fans", non-stop.

This past weekend I'm pretty sure I got my answer. During a scoreless game I watched "super fan", again non stop with his critism of the plate umpire from his seat down the third base line impart his tired verbal assault, moreover I observed the home plate umpire on multipule occasions glance towards "super fan" during the course of the game. The game came to head when the visiting pitcher loaded the bases. Then on a 2 out 3-2 pitch, walked in a run, on a missed called third strike. Everyone on and off the field as well as most of the Western Hemisphere knew that the call was missed. The inning eventually ends, not before two more runs have come across. Top half of the inning, rather than just sit back and enjoy the gift the baseball gods had bestowed on the home team "super fan", begans his tirade against the home plate umpire with a vengance. Immediately the strike zone shrinks to the size of Frisbee hovering around the general vacinity of home plate. In an instant "super fan" unleashes his wrath on every call against the home team ever certain that his non stop commentary will sway the umpires mind. Two batters into the inning, a floating strike zone the size of a Frisbee would have been generous. Home team gives back 5 runs the following inning and loses the game 5-3.

On rare occasions I've seen fans tossed from a game. I believe more often than not an umpire will bust his critics chops through not giving them the close call or the pitch on the black. I would!
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JS jack sebesta100+ posts
It's my birthday so no one is allowed to bust my chops.

I ump, I coach and I play. As an ump I am certain that I have never taken my irritation with a fan/parent/player/coach out during the course of the game for which I am a paid professional. I am also certain that there are numerous aforementioned folks that believe that I have done exactly that. Over the years of coaching and playing I am just as certain that other umpires have done it to me or my team - different perspective.

When faced with a parent/spectator as described: ignore, ignore, ignore. If it is really out of line, give them a choice to continue watching the game from the present location without the critique; move to a remote location or leave the facility and find out from their son/daughter/friends how the game turned out.

Maybe I have been lucky over the years, maybe it is my sparkling personality, maybe I just block them from my memory - I can only recall two times over 25 years where anything got beyond just a conversation between me and the agitator.

It is one of the few professions where you can be successful 99.9999999% of the time and still be the biggest horses b--- in the world.
3rdgenerationnation3rdgenerationnation100+ posts
[QUOTE] Then on a 2 out 3-2 pitch, walked in a run, on a missed called third strike. Everyone on and off the field as well as most of the Western Hemisphere knew that the call was missed. /QUOTE]

The only person on the field that matters thought it was a strike. There is no place on or off the field where you can better judge if a pitch was a strike then in the HPU's position. If there was then he'd be in that spot.

As Jack said, you try not to let someone who is sure they can see pitches better then you get to you. Sometimes it's just amusing how bad a pitch is that will draw comment from fans as if it was a strike. It's hard to use fan's judgements of you as a gauge to your performance when they can't possible see what you're seeing.
BOFBOF10,000+ posts
A good umpire worth his salt knows that on any call 1/2 of the stands like the call and 1/2 of the stands do not. Any umpire who gives a rats behind what people are saying in the stands should stop umping. Frankly the only thing someone is doing when they are constantly berating an ump is showing how unintelligent they are, and are most likely annoying everyone around them more than the umpire. Now a good chirp or two is part of the fun IMO.

That is not to say that umpires will not change their zones as the game goes on. They are just human, maybe they should not be umping, but it happens. They best ones however are rock solid however, with a few borderline pitches that go either way depending on the view the ump had. Also who is to say there was not a terrible catcher that was blocking the view of the ump?
Hawk19Hawk19100+ posts
quote:
I've always wondered if the age old practice of calling the umpires out, on balls and strikes had an influence on a game.


I don't like fans that constantly complain about every pitch. I think, if anything, it's counterproductive. However, I am always amused by comments from coaches and fans directed at players but meant for the ump...

'That's not your pitch' (to the batter).
'Good pitch' (to the pitcher after a ball)
'Where is a he missing?' (to the catcher)

We once had a parent that deliberately stood behind the backstop when her son was pitching and would make little 'surprised' sounds on any close pitch that wasn't called a strike. She felt it was a subtle way to get the ump to 'open up' the zone... Wink
D dswann100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BOF:
A good umpire worth his salt knows that on any call 1/2 of the stands like the call and 1/2 of the stands do not. Any umpire who gives a rats behind what people are saying in the stands should stop umping. Frankly the only thing someone is doing when they are constantly berating an ump is showing how unintelligent they are, and are most likely annoying everyone around them more than the umpire. Now a good chirp or two is part of the fun IMO.

That is not to say that umpires will not change their zones as the game goes on. They are just human, maybe they should not be umping, but it happens. They best ones however are rock solid however, with a few borderline pitches that go either way depending on the view the ump had. Also who is to say there was not a terrible catcher that was blocking the view of the ump?


Great points. I do love a timely chirp.

I guess the non-stop umpire bashing never made much sense to me. Why would you verbally abuse a cop. You wouldn't for the obvious reasons. Then why an umpire. I can't imagine it ever being a conscience decision to rule against team because of it's fans. unconsciencely possibly. Who's to say, good thing I'm not an umpire
JS jack sebesta100+ posts
Very appropriate timing on this.
Press Release - March 21, 2011:
The NCAA has announced that in 2012 Division 3 baseball and softball they will be doing a test run with approximately a dozen different conferences. In all games, other than playoff games, the umpires will be placed in the stands.

After all, everyone sees it better from there anyway.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by jack sebesta:
Very appropriate timing on this.
Press Release - March 21, 2011:
The NCAA has announced that in 2012 Division 3 baseball and softball they will be doing a test run with approximately a dozen different conferences. In all games, other than playoff games, the umpires will be placed in the stands.

After all, everyone sees it better from there anyway.


From watching coaches and managers for 30 years, I've come to the conclusion that the best place to call pitches is from the third base coach's box and the best place to call bangers at first is the third baseline dugout.
L LHPMom2012100+ posts
This is a true story.

In fall 2010, I was sitting near the back stop before the game started. (fall ball game between two high school teams.) The umps walk up -- I guess the second one was a trainee, because the first one was saying, "It's okay to call a strike a ball, but you never want to call a ball a strike."

Not surprisingly, the strike zone was very small that day.

Have any of you umps ever heard this pearl of wisdom?
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by LHPMom2012:
This is a true story.

In fall 2010, I was sitting near the back stop before the game started. (fall ball game between two high school teams.) The umps walk up -- I guess the second one was a trainee, because the first one was saying, "It's okay to call a strike a ball, but you never want to call a ball a strike."

Not surprisingly, the strike zone was very small that day.

Have any of you umps ever heard this pearl of wisdom?


I've heard it said that way and in the opposite way. Neither are very conducive to calling a good plate game.
20dad20dad1,000+ posts
when i first coached LL,our league was not very well run. had gone downhill for years, in about every way possible.

in the very first inning, the ump made up some rule. today i still couldn't tell you what it was. but i started riding him from the dugout. in the 2nd the kids started riding him, i said hey i thought we taught you not to disrespect the umps. in perfect unison they said" but your doing it." talk about an eye opener, never really felt the need to chirp at an ump after that.

just goes to show ya, the game teaches lessons all the time. if you pay attention. Wink
VectorVector1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by jack sebesta:
In all games, other than playoff games, the umpires will be placed in the stands.

After all, everyone sees it better from there anyway.



Now that is funny, and so true. I always get a kick out of sports fans who are in the nosebleed sections of sporting events that swear a certain player touched the ball last before it went out of bounds. Or the guy who swears the ball hit the line even though a line judge was standing a couple of feet away.

As to the general notion of fans hurting their teams chances because they are riding the umps, I'd guess most umps are not persuaded by such things. However they are human, so I suspect a few (probably the less experienced or professional) might allow outside taunts to effect their judgment. Personally I never get on the umps, especially when my son is on the mound. I think the worst thing I've said as it relates to ball and strike calls is, "that must have just missed". Even that is rare for me.
I think part of it comes from having my son attend a baseball academy from a very early age. They had very strict rules about parental behavior which kept even the most obnoxious personalities in check. So you never felt the need to speak up for your team since the loud mouth parents were held in check. They would have fits in the parking lots, but on the field they knew to only cheer for the kids.

Believe me, down here in S Fl some of these little league games are unbelievable when it comes to parent behavior. It was like going from Disney to a prison yard when we had our son play outside the academy. Umps were cursed at and threatened right in front of the kids, fights were breaking out in the stands, etc.

I imagine it can happen anywhere, but it seems especially bad down here in certain sections. So I do not envy the umps regardless of the big money they receive to umpire a game.
Hawk19Hawk19100+ posts
quote:
I agree with most of your post. But remember, there are times when a well placed ball just off the plate really is a good pitch in some situations. But I understand what you mean.


I've always preached to my son that he needs to show the umpire early that he can throw strikes so don't try to 'nibble' right away. A couple of games ago he walked the lead-off batter to start the game and afterward I was reminding him that he needs to go after that first guy....

'Dad...that guy should have swung at every pitch'...I shut up... Wink
piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
Its never a good idea to do this....to the experienced and trained umpire, the noise is not even registered as we are well aware that baseball is a partisan game....and one side will invariably disagree with almost every call.....

As an Umpire who has been there, if I hear the stands, I have the confidence of my conviction that I am unbiased, trained in the proper mechanics and made the call to the best of my ability...

To the young umpire or a recent umpire, I think its counterproductive to your team if they are ridden hard....its like when a pitcher is struggling, I hear a mom or dad from the stands yell "Just throw Strikes Billy!!"....

Well first off thats exactly what the poor kid is trying to do....and it gets into their head and then they cant focus....riding an umpire like that is bad for both teams....

As a training umpire for many levels , I have had new youth ball umpires experience this while doing games with them and have seen it first hand...the above "super fan" rides the umpire until his zone is weak and his confidence is shaken...

The super fan walks off after the game telling everyone how bad the umpiring was, yet the truth is that he has ruined the game for both teams....

Here is an example from my own experience and this was HS varsity ball....

Man on first....ground ball to shortstop, who flips to second for one out and second throws to first for the routine classic 6-4-3 double play.....

I am the base umpire and call both outs....Loudly from the stands a fan yells.....he never tagged him.....he never tagged him at second...and keeps repeating it every inning and on every call I make....

I hear her...but the call was a classic force play and no tag is neccesary and most of everyone in the stadium/baseball world knows that.... after an inning or two of this, the first base coach finally yells up to the fan to "stop embarassing the team....it was a force play...."

In the end a fan riding an umpire will end up being an embarassment to their player and team....
Last edited by piaa_ump
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
My son's high school coach will come out of the dugout and tell parents to knock it off. He says it's his job to question calls. Before I continue I'll state I believe my son's high school coach is becoming a very good coach (this fourth year). He bitches about too many calls. This is the view of umpires I've chatted with before games (twice) in the parking lot. One asked if anyone has noticed the team rarely gets close, debatable calls late in the game. He told me this isn't just their view but the view of the umpires across the conference. This was an umpire I know well enough that he knew I would not take this information back to the coach or league.
Last edited by RJM

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