radar gun

Keep your money or buy a used jugs or stalker, you will be disapointed with anything else.

CV

Lets be fair. The Bushnell works fine if you use it the way the manufacturer recommends. I know this because I have check it against our Jugs gun.
The key to using the Bushnell is that the angle must be behind the catcher, no more than 50 ft. (so it is basically for 12U), and there can be no obstructions; i.e. a fence. Therefore, if you are pitching from 60'6", forget it. Or, if you plan on checking the speed from anywhere else than the plate umpire position, it won't work either. But, if you are checking Little League throwers, it is just fine from a distance of 46'.

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The key to using the Bushnell is that the angle must be behind the catcher, no more than 50 ft. (so it is basically for 12U), and there can be no obstructions; i.e. a fence.

All guns (including police ones) must be used roughly in line with movement. Up to 5-8 degrees off is okay. More of an angle will reduce the speed reading.

Don't know about Bushnells but a Stalker/Jugs can be used thru a common metal chain link fence backstop. Pro scouts do it all the time. The fence might reduce range a bit, but won't affect the speed.

One more thing: yes, those cheapie guns have a range of about 40-50 feet. You CAN read behind the fence for older kids but you'll be picking up the speed almost in the mitt: way low, but still useful for comparing pitchers and seeing when they slow down.

Obviously you haven't used a radar gun much. Regardless of where you are or the angle you are at, you have to use a basic trig. calculation to determine speed from the angle your are sitting. Just a few feet left or right will give you a false reading. The guns come with a cheat chart so you don't have to sit there with a calculator.
Again, Stalkers and Jugs go through fences, the Bushnell will not.

Savannah says: "Obviously you haven't used a radar gun much."

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Just a few feet left or right will give you a false reading.

Yep, maybe a tenth of a mph. (Lord)

Do you bring a transit to the game to compute the cosine error from your seat?

I'm tired of posting the same stuff about radar for the past 6 months. Yes, I've used radar for years. Here's a link to Stalker manual which discusses angle error among other things:

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:HBrPxRPXh20J:www.stalkerradar.com/pdf/pro_manual.pdf+%2Bstalker+angle+error&hl=en

Another quote about radar angle error from the web:

"Radar is subject to "Angle Error". The formula is Cosine of angle X actual speed = radar reading.

At small angles the error is very small.
If angle is 5 degrees, then radar will read 99.6% of actual speed / Example actual target speed 50 MPH, gun reading 49.8 MPH
If angle is 10 degrees, then radar will read 98.5% of actual speed / Example actual target speed 50 MPH, gun reading 49.2 MPH
If angle is 15 degrees, then radar will read 96.6% of actual speed / Example actual target speed 50 MPH, gun reading 48.3 MPH

Scouts using radar guns are one thing but as a coach did not have one never wanted one. To me it was a distraction as kids thought velocity was the key to being a good pitcher. I have seen many kids with good velocity who could not throw strikes on a consistent basis. Location movement then velocity in that order is the key to being a good pitcher. Get the first 2 and if you have the third you are really in business.

We have many guns and used to use all Jugs (cost). About 9 years ago we switched and now use all Stalkers. 90% or so, of all pro scouts use Stalkers and we want the same readings they’re getting.

We have noticed the Stalkers will read the same to a couple MPHs “slower” than the Jugs gun. Anyone who uses a Stalker gun for a long period of time, should invest in the newer more powerful trigger batteries. We have been very happy with them. We also carry extra batteries with every gun. At big tournaments we are constantly charging batteries. We used to have lots of problems with the Jugs batteries.

Will,

With all due respect and to each his own. I understand your reasoning, it makes sense.

However, we always gunned (every pitch) and charted our pitchers and the opposing pitcher (every pitch).

From the dugout it is not always easy to see velocity drops. Sometimes a pitcher can lose a lot of velocity but still be getting hitters out (appear to be sailing along). Each pitcher was different and we knew them well.

When certain pitchers would lose 5-6 MPH velocity all of a sudden, we would get someone up in the bullpen immediately. We didn’t want to wait for him to struggle and get lit up.

More importantly, a lose in velocity means the pitcher is more than likely getting tired. As you know, this is when injury to the arm is most likely.

Velocity readings for your own pitcher can be valuable information (no matter how hard they throw). For example if his breaking ball is best at 74 mph, but he’s throwing it 70 mph today, you can assume he doesn’t have his best stuff today. If his best change up usually differs 12 MPH from his fastball, but today it’s 8 MPH or 15 MPH different you can assume he doesn’t have the feel for the good one yet. If his normal fastball is 87 MPH, but it’s 83 today, you watch him extra carefully and make sure you have someone ready.

The gun wasn’t used so our pitchers would light it up, it was used to chart, learn and adjust. Opposing pitchers were charted to learn trends and plan for the next time in case we would see them again. Every pitch was charted for type of pitch, quality, location, count, velocity, movement and results.

In our case it was very valuable information.

Any have any idea what the typical drop off in speed is from out of hand to catchers mitt?

If its 80mph at release what is the speed when the ball reaches the plate?

Would it be right to assume that the drop off is less the faster the ball is thrown?

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Any have any idea what the typical drop off in speed is from out of hand to catchers mitt?

If its 80mph at release what is the speed when the ball reaches the plate?

Would it be right to assume that the drop off is less the faster the ball is thrown?

I've read that it's about 1 mph per 10 feet so that 80mph would hit the mitt around 74 mph.
Would vary a bit with the type of pitch and spin, I guess.

Your second question is interesting. Wind resistance would be vastly more at 100 mph than at 50. (4 times?). Therefore faster pitch might slow more than a slow one.

My guess too is that a pitcher must get a lot stronger to throw 100 than to throw say 95 mph due to wind resistance. .

Not being a Physics type, I don't know how the math works.

I did used to use the Stalker Pro model that gave two readings. We would notice for whatever reason certain pitchers were able to maintain more of their velocity at the plate than others. In other words you could have two 90mph pitchers, one would read 82 at the plate, the other 85 at the plate.

My best guess is that it is much the same as an outfielder who throws 90mph with nothing left when it reaches it's target vs an outfielder who throws 86 mph with good carry and zip at the target.

The first reading at release has more to do with arm speed and the last reading would be determined more by rotation and other factors.

Thanks micdsguy and PGStaff....

micdsguy,
The dynamic pressure on the ball which is a major component of drag varies with the square of the velocity but the drag coefficient begins to drop off rapidly at about 55 or 60 mph and continues to drop sharply to about 95 mph such that velocity typically drops off about 1 mph for every 7 or 8 ft almost regardless of initial velocity. As PG has noted spin will have more of an effect than initial velocity on how much a ball slows down. The drag coefficient begins to level off again at about 95 mph and above causing the drag to go up quickly and making it that much more difficult to throw 100 mph or above.

Another reason for using a gun is that some pitchers are deceptive when it comes to velocity. I had two kids last year who threw within 1 mph of each other. When you watched the harder throwing of the two from the dugout or even when you were catching him you'd swear he was throwing 5 mph harder at least. The other one never looked like he was throwing that hard but the ball got there just as quick. The harder throwing one got more strikeouts due to intimidation. The one throwing 1 mph slower always had kids behind on the ball and gave up very few solidly hit balls.

If LACK of spin causes a ball to slow rapidly, that could be another reason knuckle balls are hard to hit.

Might be worth investigating whether highly effective pitchers somehow generate speed drops that are unusually fast or slow. That's something no one talks about. We all assume that all fastballs, for example, slow at about the same rate.

I've seen a zillion 80mph HS fastballers who can throw strikes in the right place. Some have 1.00 ERAs while others have 5.0 ERAs. Maybe there's a pitching quality no one's identified yet!!!

It has been identified. We just used to call it throwing a heavy ball. The reason pitchers throw a heavy ball probably varies from pitcher to pitcher. Some because of their location, some because of sink, some because of varying speeds and all combinations of the above.

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I have seen many kids with good velocity who could not throw strikes on a consistent basis. Location movement then velocity in that order is the key to being a good pitcher. Get the first 2 and if you have the third you are really in business.

I have seen kids with poor velocity that could not throw strikes as well.

Regardless of what you believe, there is no one order to the universe of pitching. I have also seen many that had velocity first and developed the other 2 attributes. It matters not in which order the 3 come. As long as they come. It has a lot to do with goals of the coaches and the parents. You are not helping yourself to concentrate and any 2 and ignore one and hope that it will just "happen". That is shortsided and uninformed.