Reconstruct for Earned Run in case of passed ball

When you reconstruct, give the benefit of the doubt to the pitcher.

I would score unearned for the reasons you list.

Bazeballgirl,

The whole issue revolves around two things. #1 was it a passed, and #2 how to reconstruct the inning if it was.

I’ll accept it really was a passed ball as opposed to a wild pitch, but experience tells me that about 80% of the time when a runner advances because the ball didn’t get caught by the catcher, it was a WP not a PB.

I’m not trying to insult you at all, but sometimes people used “passed ball” in a generic way, such as: “The ball went past the catcher”, rather than the way its defined in the rule books.

But going on the thought that the catcher could have caught the ball with ordinary effort, the ball didn’t touch the ground before it reached him, and the runner wasn’t trying to advance to 2nd at the time of the pitch, I’ll try to reconstruct it as I would if I were the scorer.

Base hit puts runner on 1st.

Disregard the PB.

Next batter grounds out 6-3. When I reconstruct an inning, I never assume what the fielders MIGHT have done, other than make plays as though there weren’t any runners on. But that’s me. Going by that, to me the 2nd batter grounds out 6-3 and the runner moves to 2nd.

Next batter grounds out 6-3 and the same thing applies. Runner moves to 3rd on the ground out.

Next batter singles. RBI – yes.

Next batter reaches on FC. – yes.

In my book, if things happened exactly that way, it would be an ER.

The thing is, when a score starts ASSUMING to many things, s/he starts causing her/himself problems. FI, if the runner didn’t move to 2nd on the PB, are you sure the SS would have been playing exactly where he was. I don’t know if the batters were RH or LH, or if the pitcher was a power or finesse guy, and I don’t know if the pitches were called differently because of where the runner was, but if I start ASSUMING things, I better start thinking about all those things as well.

But when I disregard all the ASSUMPTIONS and go by what’s written in the book, those problems go away. IOW, what I see is the 1st batter singled, and the 2nd batter grounds out 6-3. That means the runner had to advance to 2nd. Now whether the runner advanced from 2nd to 3rd is questionable, but typically runners advance from 2nd to 3rd on ground balls to short. But let’s say we give the benefit of any doubt to the pitcher, and the runner doesn’t go to 3rd.

Now there are 2 outs, and the runner will be off on contact. Now I’m sure there are circumstances where a runner in that situation doesn’t score, but there aren’t many. What I’d likely do, is concentrate on that hit. Was the runner on 2nd a fat slob who couldn’t run very well and was the ball hit very hard right at the LF. If so, I’d say there was doubt that the runner would have scored, and the run would be a UER. But, if in my mind there was little doubt that a runner on 2nd with 2 outs would have scored, the run would be an ER.

Here’s what I try to keep in mind. The benefit of the doubt doesn’t mean the benefit of even the slightest of uncertainty. It means if it could have gone either way and there was no way to determine for sure what would have happened, err on the side of the pitcher.

In the end, what really matters is that the scorer does make an honest effort to reconstruct an inning. Thankfully, most of the time things aren’t that complicated.

Stats is right. Consider this: if a scorekeeper is willing to guess which way the infielder will throw to get the out, then the SK should also try to guess whether the offense would have tried to sacrifice bunt or hit and run.

I will humbly disagree, but this is another of those cases where judgment applies.

10.16 says you reconstruct ..."giving the benefit of the doubt always to the pitcher in determining which bases would have been reached by runners had there been errorless play"

I have always assumed a routine ground ball to short that would normally result in a play being made at second base if a runner was on first, is reconstructed as a force play at second with runner at first.

If the 6-3 is a one hopper near the bag, how can you assume this is not a 6-4 or 6 unassisted, fielder's choice when giving benefit of the doubt to the pitcher? If its a slow roller do or die, I'd reconstruct with the play at first and the runner now at second.

Single to left automatically scoring runner from second with two outs? Depends... You covered it.

I don't assume a runner advances from second to third with < 2 outs on a 6-3 without some kind of slow roller, up the middle or other factor.

I never got that far because I had the runner still at first with two outs, again I'd have to have seen it for myself.

To 3Finger's point, you reconstruct what they did, not what they could've done, even if the offense bunts in a situation where they wouldn't have bunted in the reconstructed scenario but you do assume the defense would've made normal plays (giving the benefit of the doubt to the pitcher).

Maybe I've been doing this wrong all these years, but I went back through the rules and can't find any additional guidance on this. But I was also a pitcher

JMoff,

I totally understand your take in things, and respect it because you’ve done due diligence to try to get it done correctly. I’ve had the experience of communicating with a couple ML scorers, and that’s where I get my take.

I’ve been told that the guideline is to disregard the errors, PBs and such, and then look at the scoresheet to get guidance. And in doing that, you should only use what’s on the sheet, not what might have been on the sheet if things were different because you can only judge what actually took place.

I’m definitely not saying a scorer shouldn’t try to guess what would have taken place, like on a GB being thrown to 2nd for a force or 1st for the sure out, but I would never do it. That would be assuming the play at 2nd would have taken place without errors. But you KNOW the play at 1st took place without a hitch, which is why that’s what I use. Its just what you said here: …you reconstruct what they did, not what they could've done…

Sometimes the rules don’t completely explain what to do in every situation, and that’s where you have to use other sources to determine what it is you should do. That’s why they have case books and loads of interps for sale. But the trouble is, there aren’t any “official” case books or interps I know of for the scorers.

In the end though, I’ll bet the way you score has more to do with your sympathies for pitchers than anything else. LOL! I was a catcher and my kid was a pitcher, so I generally tend to lean that way myself. But that conflict has made me do a good deal of research on PBs and WPs, which is why I mad the original comment the way I did.

In truth, I’ve found that the thing most affecting pitcher ERAs at the lower levels, HS being included in that broad category, is is PBs and WPs, and the scorer’s inability to 1) score them correctly, and 2) reconstruct innings. Scoring errors well just isn’t that big of a deal in comparison in my experience.

Stats: I had a couple of long drives today to watch my son play and I've done some thinking on this. I'm changing my thinking to match with yours...

For background, I usually don't worry about E vs. UE runs. I score games for fun and don't always worry about statistics compilation on my own. I do for my kids, but nothing that "counts".

When I score HS, the Palm decides E vs. UE and I stopped trying to over rule it a few years ago when I saw what coaches do to the stats. Why bother with a run here or there when he's going to take a full run off their ERA later for regional team selections, etc. They all do it, so see my previous comments about HS stats that don't mean anything...

In my day dreaming today, I started extrapolating my logic, like if reconstructing and you had R2 and hard GB with less than two outs to second, I would assume R2 becomes R3 on 4-3. You could take this "benefit to the pitcher thing" to an extreme and assume second baseman has a cannon and would've thrown runner out at third. In 99% of baseball plays, that wouldn't happen but ...benefit to the pitcher...

I think the only place I've been off on this logic are routine ground balls up the middle, fielded cleanly and assuming a force at second (not double play, but simple force play) versus an advancement to second by the runner, which on 90% of baseball plays wouldn't happen. It is the most probable placement of the baserunners, but the assumption of where they would throw versus where they did throw opens up that other can of worms.

I see the point you and 3Finger raised and if you allow this simple assumption, it opens up all these other cases (the runner at third, assuming double plays, back picks, etc).

This is why I read this thread, you never know when you'll learn something new...

On another note, my son walked the lead off man, who turned into an unearned winning run. My personal opinion is that 10.16 should be changed to say if you walk the leadoff man and he scores, its earned no matter what else happens...

Jmoff,

One thing about this kind of discussion, is that lots of people learn something new. I can’t begin to count the number of things I’ve changed about how I score. In fact, I’ve had to pull my foot out of my mouth so many times over the years, I’ve finally figgered out that in the long run, as long as the scorer is trying, there’s really nothing for them to be ashamed about. Its those folks who keep score, but don’t really care that are the problem.

E/UE runs, which of course only means something to ERA, are really one of those traditional things in baseball, that if the game were invented today, very likely wouldn’t even be a stat. ERA was devised as a way to measure pitchers equally, without the interference of other players on the field. It works to some degree, but now there are much better ways to compare pitchers, just like there are better ways to compare hitters than BA.

I certainly understand your exasperation with HS coaches and the stats! One thing that’s getting more difficult to do though, is for coaches to just submit unsubstantiated numbers. What with the increasing use of the WWW to post stats, it’s a bit more difficult to have a kid with a 3.50 ERA on MaxPreps, suddenly have a 1.31 ERA in the coaches meeting to decide 1st team all league players. The coaches who would cheat will always be able to find a way to do it, but thankfully its getting a bit more difficult all the time.

I don’t think they “ALL” do it, but I do believe many many do. But in their defense, the vast majority that do, very likely aren’t doing it on purpose. I think many people would be amazed to find out how few coaches, let alone players, and for sure fans, don’t know the scoring rules very well at all. Most know the general rules, but its those rules like for the WP and PB, when a hitter gets an RBI or not, of whether a hit is single with an error or a double, that make the stats valid. No stats are perfect because there are biases involved, but in general, the higher the level, the better the scoring.

Well, I can certainly understand your feeling about a leadoff walk, and anyone who’s watched any baseball at any level should be able to understand that one. Heck, I can’t watch a game on TV where I don’t let loose with a bunch of expletives when the pitcher on my team either walks, or even worse, hits the leadoff hitter in an inning.

Having scored as long as I have at the HS and below levels, and even the 2 years I spent scoring at the college level, my biggest complaint about 10.16 has always been that there should be something in there that says errors made by the pitcher should be treated differently than errors made by other fielders. If an earned run is truly one the pitcher should be held accountable for, he shouldn’t receive any benefit for his making an error.

A wild pitch is basically a throwing error that allows a runner to advance, and the rules don’t allow the pitcher to benefit from it like they do for a passed ball, so IMO they shouldn’t get to benefit from any other throwing or fielding error. When my son was still pitching, I remember getting mad at him one day about making a stupid fielding error that I thought cost us the game. And when he said that losing wasn’t his fault because he hadn’t given up an ER, my head almost exploded!

As soon as I got home, I modified my program to create a stat I still generate today See page 14 at http://www.infosports.com/scor...mages/pitching11.pdf

Pitchers get and deserve most of the breaks they get as far as scoring goes, but not that they can throw away the ball that allows the winning run to score, and the run doesn’t count against them because a fielder made an error that allowed it!

Stats: I hope people do read this forum and learn from it. I know that's why I started here. Not because I thought I knew everying, but because I knew I didn't.

I've been scoring since I was 8 years old. The lady who taught me back then didn't believe in errors (she was scoring little league). I've tried over the last 36 years to improve upon the basic skills I learned back then and get better at it.

I hope everyone reading this thread is doing the same. I also hope we didn't scare away Bazeballgirl, who asked a simple question and got a much more complicated answer than she was probably expecting...

On the surface, this scoring stuff is easy. Basically, if the average scorer gets the number of runs scored by each team correct, they've done their job. Believe it or not, I attended a HS softball game this spring where this didn't happen. My "third book" corrected a potential W/L determination because the home team scorer wasn't paying attention.

When you get to the finer points it becomes more complicated and then reveals even finer points.

I enjoy the discussions here and encourage everyone to keep posting. It's sometimes hard to answer every question definitively, since so much of scoring is judgment and the person posting is the only one who actually saw the play in question. The rest of us will try, but ultimately its up to the scorer to decide H/E, Earned/Unearned, PB/WP, etc.