Recruiting Mantras

Root, is the value of a degree from each school roughly comparable? Or does one have a much better reputation academically?

Roughly comparable. Both schools offer pretty substantial tuition waivers (down to 150% of in-state) for students from our state. However, you are limited to particular majors and the list for school B is wide open, whereas school A's list is rather limited. He hasn't really nailed down what he wants to major in, so, if he attended school A, he might find himself changing declared majors to something that increases tuition.

Make the decision after team 2 flies out.  Right now you don't have all the information to compare options but you will after meeting with team 2.  Unless team 1 has given you a deadline to accept their offer, there does not appear to be a downside in meeting with team 2.   

For the waiver, school A requires you major in one of the following:

For school B:

Congrats to him on two terrific choices!  

I have a bit of a different take on the "go where you would go without baseball" thing.  Academics are very important.  Being in an environment where he can be comfortable and happy is very important.  For different players and families, other things are very important... maybe proximity, weather, costs, etc.  But baseball players are going to spend a HUGE chunk of time with baseball.  The team, the coaches, the facilities, the gym, etc.  I don't think a player should make decisions based on the possibility of an injury.  JMO.

Sounds like "A" has become a terrific option but, of course, the big fear is that college coaches tend to be very mobile (particularly good assistants) and those coaches are the biggest selling point for your son.  

You said...   "He would never consider this school with other coaches or without baseball."

What are his/your thoughts if you shortened that statement to just...  "He would never consider this school with other coaches." ?   Because this may be the more likely scenario.

Considering he likes the other school better, I don't know why you/he wouldn't allow that to play out and see everything they have to offer.  They surely can't be naive enough to think they are the only ones interested in your son if they think that highly of him to communicate what they have to date.   Gather all information before making the big decision.  Sounds like they have afforded you time to do so.

Very exciting for your son!

I agree with letting this play out a little more as your family doesn't have all the information yet.

Having been down the path once with my oldest son's attraction being "entirely with the coaching staff" I can attest that this is also entirely during the recruiting process.  It may be the same once under the hood as a student-athlete or it may be very different.  In my oldest's case, practices and games under the hood were entirely different...no more love...lots of screaming and swearing and ultimately, transfers. 

So what about the campus, majors, location, facilities, etc.??  Lots more factors than recruiting connection with the coaching staff as my oldest learned...the hard way.

You guys have time to do some more research on both schools and with current and former players of both.  And you have time to hear out the second school on their offer.   Good luck!

Make your decision after meeting with Coach B.  Here are some questions to consider about school A since your son's main reasoning is the coaching staff.  How long has the HC been there?  How successful has he been?  If he is tearing it up I'd be concerned since you said the facilities aren't very good.  The other option is to attend School A, if the coach leaves, go to JUCO or follow him to his next school and redshirt.  

In a perfect world you would go where you are loved and where you would attend if baseball wasn't in the equation, but how many times does it really work out that you get both?   

If you haven't encouraged him to already do so....have him call a couple current players from each school/team and ask them for their thoughts and the skinny on the schools, coach's, program, culture, etc.

We have found that those kids are usually pretty open and honest about their experiences, likes & dislikes and whether or not they'd make the same decision again.

Just a thought--

So, first off I'm a huge believer in both mantras, especially when your son has options.  I've seen & heard of so many situations over the last 10 years that have just made me a 100% believer in those mantras.

Glad you insisted on having the other program be able to demonstrate their interest.  Sounds like they have a challenge in front of them.   I agree with others that you need to wait for the second offer.   Be patient and be fair.  Wait for it.   Wait for it.  ;-)

I like your approach of using finances as a way to compare the programs since your son hasn't decided on a major.   Something has to be the over riding decision point.  You're telling us they are comparable in baseball.  You've told us they are comparable in academics.    So why not use finances as your measuring stick?   This seems like a logical decision.

Also, I think you have to listen and trust your son.  My oldest son made a decision that blew my socks off at the time.  I thought for sure he was going to select another well known school.   But, when I listened to his reasoning, research and self-awareness it made sense.  

Good luck!

DesertDuck posted:

If you haven't encouraged him to already do so....have him call a couple current players from each school/team and ask them for their thoughts and the skinny on the schools, coach's, program, culture, etc.

We have found that those kids are usually pretty open and honest about their experiences, likes & dislikes and whether or not they'd make the same decision again.

Just a thought--

That's an excellent thought.

Congrats on the options!!!! See what comes of school B and compare them together. Share school B visit results/feelings if you will and be sure to report back on "The Decision". 

Agree with most...excellent position to be in for your son. Go where you are going to be happy. I think looking at the length of tenure of the HC in this instance at school "A" would be beneficial. Is he already a long-term coach at the school? What is the school's history on length of tenure of the coaching staff? These are all things to consider strongly if the main reason for choosing the school is the HC.

Root -  I was under the impression that Root Jr's recruiting really opened up after his showing at Perfect Game Nationals.   Is there a reason to not wait for a Power 5 opportunity to come up?  Are you reasonably sure a Power 5 offer isn't coming?

Power 5 offers being guaranteed for a full four years is a huge difference maker.

First, this is a high class problem to have. Congratulations. Offers are hard to come by. Your son is clearly a talented player.

I like what Fenwaysouth said about utilizing the financial package as a deciding factor.

Also, has your son visited the campus of school B? . That is important as most schools will not offer unless a kid has been on campus . And of course , your son needs to be on campus B in order to make a proper decision .

IMO,  in these situations one school always cares more than the other. The infamous 'Love' factor.

GO WHERE THEY LOVE YOU....That's my mantra. It's a 4 year commitment and things happen. Injuries , roster changes . The player needs the Love factor for the best opportunities and long term commitment from the staff, school.

Congrats!!  

What does your son want to do after he graduates? (and baseball other than men's league is out of the picture)

Unless your son is a high draft pick college baseball is a way to:

a) Get into a school he normally might not get into.

b) Help him grow and experience things that others may not and grow as a person.

c) Help pay for the cost of education.

d) Allow him to go somewhere and experience a new environment that he might not experience otherwise.

e) Have fun. 

My son had amazing offers from schools we would never consider for academic reasons -  so go where they love you AND it makes sense academically. 

Remember he is a student (#1) athlete (#2). 

My advice is to always go where your loved and it makes sense if baseball is out of the picture as the odds are that it will not be for your son in 3 years. 

Congrats to your boy Root. Just curious, what would be the cost to your family if your boy chose School A with a Lib Studies  ID major and after 2 years decided to declare another more specific major like Accounting?

Root:  Definitely make the second school visit especially if school A is not pressing for an immediate decision. Noticed that school A's majors for choice are definitely more limited. Noticed that poli-sci (a common major) not on List A. What is your son thinking of studying? As others mentioned assistants come and go; son saw two RC assistants leave their schools for 2 of his top 6 schools during his recruiting journey.  Also you mentioned plane rides for each site. Is one of the two closer to your home state? In any event, it's an exciting time for you and your son. Congrats!

roothog66 posted:

My 2018 has a bit of a quandary. Actually, it's probably more mine. He basically has his choice down to two schools. He just had a visit at school A. I wasn't there and he flew up with his mother. They basically floored him.

Somewhat based on things I've picked up here, there are two common factors I am in agreement with:

1) Go where they love you. It's better to be heavily wanted than for you to simply be accepted at a school you may love; and

2) Go to a school that you would still want to attend if baseball were to disappear.

 

After being in daily contact for a month, the coaching staff spent eight hours showing him around campus on day #1. On day #2, the head coach, who is also the pitching coach, spent four more hours with him. They completely clicked. The rapport was beyond anything he's built with any other school - the HC/PC and my 2018 are completely in sync on every aspect of pitching. Fantastic visit! At the end of it, they made a substantial offer, that, after a WUE tuition waiver, amounts to a 100%. So, what's the problem?

He readily admits, that the attraction is entirely with the coaching staff. He would never consider this school with other coaches or without baseball. It's also a competitive program in a very high ranked non-Power 5 conference. The facilities, however, are really sub-par, but this isn't really a huge consideration. This coach was also extremely courteous as to giving him time to sort things out. He also never asked about other offers.

School #2 has not yet offered, but has promised a competitive offer. They are flying out specifically to attend a bullpen session and then make an offer. He likes this school more, but hasn't so far connected as well. He considered cancelling their visit with him because he really thinks school A set a high bar, but I insisted that he meet the staff in person and see how things go. My thoughts are that, given their willingness to fly out just to talk to him, they certainly might fit the "go where you're loved" criteria. 

So, after rambling on, I wanted to hear some experienced opinions on the whole "go where you would go without baseball" thing.

 

Couple of things to keep in mind. Recruiting is like dating, you remember that. The commitment is the marriage, then after the honeymoon, reality sets in and the work begins on building the marriage, and it isn't all that easy.  Your son is experiencing the coaches at their best.  It is important to find out if  both head coaches put into practice their coaching philosophies before your son makes any decision because reality is if the relationship fails your son will more than likely not continue his education at that program.

That was one thing we told son, he understood, and that was before the sit out one year rule was in effect.

As far as degree, son took the easiest subject offered, it was his choice and we were fine with that. True you don't need a degree to play professional ball, but you do need one for when it ends and sons degree offered a variety of options. But you need to let it go and let your son decide, and very true that is not his first concern at this time, but yours, been there done that also at one time. It's important for parental imput, but your sons gut feeling is most important. My son went with the guy who would get him drafted higher than if in HS. That was his way of looking at it, and we had to let him figure that out for himself.

At this point after an offer from B, a pro and con list might be in order. It may or may not help.

One more reality to consider, seeing it for myself, coaches leave, HC being the pitching coach sounds more like he would remain, but parents and players have to understand that coaches will always consider better options. Son is replacing a D1 pitching coach at a mid D1, who left for an SEC program. Who wouldn't take that opportunity?

Root, best of luck to your son. We put too much pressure on ourselves, and pass that down to our kids, so try to stay chill, it will all work out. 

You know I have never been even close to something like this, so I am going to take the academic discussion side. 

WHY doesn't he like school A without baseball?  What is it about the school/town/people/classes/dorms?  Getting out of college with little to no debt SOUNDS wonderful, but I would take a bit of debt to have a better experience, and college is about the experience, as well as the education.  College is where kids start to REALLY grow up, they become their own person.  You are saying your son likes the coaches, that is really truly wonderful, but he had to fly to get there which means it's a completely foreign place, where he won't know a soul, and he doesn't like the school.  This sounds to me like a disaster for his mental health.

CaCO3Girl posted:

You know I have never been even close to something like this, so I am going to take the academic discussion side. 

WHY doesn't he like school A without baseball?  What is it about the school/town/people/classes/dorms?  Getting out of college with little to no debt SOUNDS wonderful, but I would take a bit of debt to have a better experience, and college is about the experience, as well as the education.  College is where kids start to REALLY grow up, they become their own person.  You are saying your son likes the coaches, that is really truly wonderful, but he had to fly to get there which means it's a completely foreign place, where he won't know a soul, and he doesn't like the school.  This sounds to me like a disaster for his mental health.

He doesn't HATE the school. He just likes some others more. It's a very, very big school. I was quite surprised actually at the size of the enrollment. 

Both schools are far from home. One is much farther than the other. 

roothog66 posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

You know I have never been even close to something like this, so I am going to take the academic discussion side. 

WHY doesn't he like school A without baseball?  What is it about the school/town/people/classes/dorms?  Getting out of college with little to no debt SOUNDS wonderful, but I would take a bit of debt to have a better experience, and college is about the experience, as well as the education.  College is where kids start to REALLY grow up, they become their own person.  You are saying your son likes the coaches, that is really truly wonderful, but he had to fly to get there which means it's a completely foreign place, where he won't know a soul, and he doesn't like the school.  This sounds to me like a disaster for his mental health.

He doesn't HATE the school. He just likes some others more. It's a very, very big school. I was quite surprised actually at the size of the enrollment. 

Both schools are far from home. One is much farther than the other. 

You may want to get into the exact things he dislikes about the school.  While baseball will consume much of his time it won't consume all of his time.  If he finds he truly dislikes something basic, like it's a city school and he needs open spaces...well, that's not going to go well.  If it's something smaller like the local pizza shop is 20 minutes away and other schools it is only 5 minutes away, then yeah, I'm sure he can live with that.

One other piece of advice that might help you in this process, particularly when you are down to two schools. When we got down to the final choices  We did "T Charts" on schools and ranked them numerically based on a criteria list we came up with. We used a 1-10 scale and then went down the list that included cost, location, coaches, academics, size, and anything else that we could come up with that would help him make a good decision. This is typically something that is done in a "decision analysis" process in business, but works perfectly in these cases. It will force him to logically look at his decision and tends to take out the emotional aspects. We always did this right after a visit and then after a few days. Always give it time as emotion from a visit impacts a young person and you want to help them make an informed choice, not an emotional one.

After you to through the rankings you add up the columns and come up with a total numerical ranking. You can also weight certain aspects to help get a better representation of his real interest. This really helped my son (and us) look at his options from a realistic point of view.

Good luck! 

roothog66 posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

You know I have never been even close to something like this, so I am going to take the academic discussion side. 

WHY doesn't he like school A without baseball?  What is it about the school/town/people/classes/dorms?  Getting out of college with little to no debt SOUNDS wonderful, but I would take a bit of debt to have a better experience, and college is about the experience, as well as the education.  College is where kids start to REALLY grow up, they become their own person.  You are saying your son likes the coaches, that is really truly wonderful, but he had to fly to get there which means it's a completely foreign place, where he won't know a soul, and he doesn't like the school.  This sounds to me like a disaster for his mental health.

He doesn't HATE the school. He just likes some others more. It's a very, very big school. I was quite surprised actually at the size of the enrollment. 

Both schools are far from home. One is much farther than the other. 

My older boy attends a very large university. I attended a VERY large university. The scale can be intimidating and at times very inconvenient when it comes to getting around physically and dealing with the bureaucracy..  

OTOH going to a large school is kind of like living in a large city. When you live in New York  you're not living with the 8.5 million. You're living within your own small village of people, mostly. Same thing at school.

One thing to be careful about is that many large schools, especially those that have "state" in their names, are predominantly commuter schools.  You want to be sure that the resident community at those places has a life of its own. We know one kid who left such a school after one semester because he felt isolated and lonely on weekends.

BOF posted:

 We did "T Charts" on schools and ranked them numerically based on a criteria list we came up with. We used a 1-10 scale and then went down the list that included cost, location, coaches, academics, size, and anything else that we could come up with that would help him make a good decision. This is typically something that is done in a "decision analysis" process in business, but works perfectly in these cases. It will force him to logically look at his decision and tends to take out the emotional aspects. We always did this right after a visit and then after a few days. Always give it time as emotion from a visit impacts a young person and you want to help them make an informed choice, not an emotional one.

 

Very good advice.   Speaks, also, to why coaches like to get commitments in person at the conclusion of a visit, while still in the Coach's office.  Get them while the emotions and *wow* factor are running high.

Just an opinion on one of the biggest repeated mantras "GO WHERE THEY LOVE YOU". If a kid is being recruited, coaches job is to "MAKE SURE THE KID KNOWS WE LOVE HIM". 

The coach's know what they are selling, they know what the kid wants. They are the best of the best at selling their product. 

Now if one school offers 35% and the second 65%, who loves you more?

(today's earworm for you at no charge, I know RJM will sing along)

https://youtu.be/_4Y9JwY8pEk

Who loves you pretty baby?

Who's gonna love your mama?

+1 Go44Dad.  You get extra style points for the music as well.

ROOTHOG,

Things can get antsy, but your son is in a unique position.  Most DIs are done recruiting position players, most of the top 2018 pitchers have already committed.  However, most every DI would say they never have enough pitching. And most DIs can find money if they want someone bad enough.  Even those that claim they have no money left say that because they aren't interested in the player.  Then there is the draft and some DI coaches are already counting on the fact they will be losing pitchers to the draft... see Vanderbilt.

So the unique position your son is in is this... He is a big strong pitcher that can throw 90+ strikes and probably more to come in the near future.  Those guys don't grow on trees.  He is one of the best uncommitted pitchers in the country. 

I know people say you should choose a school based on not playing baseball.  That is easy to say, but the vast majority of kids we see are choosing a college based on baseball first and everything else after that.  The number of kids that want to play at the big winners is astounding.  Of course it's nice to have choices between top baseball programs where baseball is equal and the other things make a  big difference. 

There are a lot of good baseball programs and a lot of good colleges.  Remember that love at first sight often turns sour after awhile.  Sometimes those showing the most love are simply the best salesmen.  So it really comes down to the offer when schools are similar.  That is closer to true love! Not to be confused with lasting love.

Sometimes these things are fairly simple. Not in any specific order...

1. Where will I get the best education?

2. Where will I have the best chance to develop as a baseball player?

3. Where will I have the best chance to develop as person?

4. Where will I have the most enjoyment?

5. How much is everything going to cost?

Put them in the order most important to your son and family.  Because there might be some give and take involved.

By chance is one of the schools about 90 miles north of Cuba?

Big in state UF was intimidating to son, who chose smaller out of state, who had many out of state players who couldn't go home on the weekend.

As to something mentioned in another post in this topic, baseball will consume most of your players time he is not in the classroom or studying, in the fall  bit less than in the spring. Most players do not have opportunities to enjoy the total college experience. If one wants that, D1 baseball isn't for you.

It's ok for baseball to come first in the decision making. But all the other variables have to be above the line/acceptable. If baseball doesn't work out in the long run am I getting an acceptable education here? Is this a location I can live for four years? Will I be adequately happy here? 

RJM posted:

It's ok for baseball to come first in the decision making. But all the other variables have to be above the line/acceptable. If baseball doesn't wotk out in the long run am I getting an acceptable education here? Is this a location I can live for four years? Will I be adequately happy here? 

Good points.  I will add:  "if they drop my financial aid package after one year (applicable to all but the Power 5 Conferences), can I afford to stay here?"

3and2Fastball posted:

RJM posted:

It's ok for baseball to come first in the decision making. But all the other variables have to be above the line/acceptable. If baseball doesn't wotk out in the long run am I getting an acceptable education here? Is this a location I can live for four years? Will I be adequately happy here? 

Good points.  I will add:  "if they drop my financial aid package after one year (applicable to all but the Power 5 Conferences), can I afford to stay here?"

That's it in a nutshell!

RJM posted:

It's ok for baseball to come first in the decision making. But all the other variables have to be above the line/acceptable. If baseball doesn't wotk out in the long run am I getting an acceptable education here? Is this a location I can live for four years? Will I be adequately happy here? 

YES, that is what I was trying to get at.  The sentence..... "He would never consider this school with other coaches or without baseball."...followed up with...."He doesn't HATE the school. He just likes some others more.".....it leads me to wonder if he likes it at all. Coaches leave, players get injured, and it's not like he can go home often.  One would THINK he would have to at least be adequately happy there, as RJM put it.

"2) Go to a school that you would still want to attend if baseball were to disappear."

So I'm going to provide a different take on this, mostly from my son's personal experience, so it may or may not apply to you and yours.

First, would you son consider EITHER school if not for the baseball opportunity?  If baseball went away (and the athletic portion of his scholarship), would he prefer to stay there regardless, and would your family even consider making the necessary financial contribution to remain there as a student vs transferring to a more preferred school closer to home or more within your financial reach (and both schools may be in your financial reach, just throwing it out there).

Frankly, my son is in school for baseball.  If not for baseball, he would likely have never even considered this school and my wife and I would not have paid the out of state tuition for him to attend as simply a student.

Many use baseball as an avenue to get into certain schools that they want to attend but otherwise wouldn't be accepted.  If this is your kid, and the school(s) would have been on a target list he would have made, absent any baseball influence, then mantra 2 is applicable.  If your son is considering one or both of the schools because of the baseball opportunities they present, then throw mantra 2 out the window, because it really doesn't apply anyway.

For my son, if baseball went away entirely, he may stay at his current school, but it's certainly not something that factored into his decision in any way.  The assumption for him is and always has been that he is there to play baseball first.  If baseball goes away, he'll cross that bridge at that time.

I used to think that a player should consider all aspects of the school that is recruiting him.

The truth is that most players chose the program to play beyond HS.  Whether it be the coaches, the success of the program, who they play, more than likely everything else is secondary.

Good stuff NUKE83.

Go44dad posted:

Just an opinion on one of the biggest repeated mantras "GO WHERE THEY LOVE YOU". If a kid is being recruited, coaches job is to "MAKE SURE THE KID KNOWS WE LOVE HIM". 

The coach's know what they are selling, they know what the kid wants. They are the best of the best at selling their product. 

Now if one school offers 35% and the second 65%, who loves you more?

(today's earworm for you at no charge, I know RJM will sing along)

https://youtu.be/_4Y9JwY8pEk

Who loves you pretty baby?

Who's gonna love your mama?

It's tough to know, though, when BOTH coaches sing this ditty:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xqz9eyakGqY

Re: If baseball ends would you want to be there?

If not, transfer. If baseball sucks transferring can be a complicated issue. 

RJM mentioned transferring.   Transferring is the heartburn I would have by ignoring the second mantra.   Everybody is agreeing on the first mantra.   In my time at HSBBWeb (and the many baseball people I know in my little corner of the world) it seems that many more young men are transferring (for baseball reasons) from their original school than not.  It seems to me this can be avoided in many cases.   Overwhelmingly, these are D1 Power-5 or top mid-majors.  Where I'm going with this is.....why can't a recruit knowing he is going into this ultra competitive baseball environment hedge his bets (and future) by picking the better academic situation from the get go....even at the expense of a few scholarship dollars?  

Possibly, this is just my perspective.  My oldest son picked a more academic school over scholarship dollars because he was more serious about academics than baseball as a career.   He loves baseball but was willing to forego it for his degree.