Recruiting Scenerio #3

First of all, I think you get out of an education what you put into it...you can get a great education at a school considered "low academic."

By many measures there is a school in our area Observer that many would consider low-to-moderate academic, yet they put out more engineers for Silicon Valley than any other college in the nation.

As for the dream school, I think the family needs to be realistic...can the son really compete there? And if not, is it still the dream school otherwise? Invited walk-ons can certainly make it, but like low draft picks, their road is tougher than the kid signed for scholarship dollars. On that one, I would base my decision on whether or not the school is a "dream" school outside of baseball.

Well - the first rule of college selection needs to be - would you go there if there were no baseball... and therefore I assume school number 1 is out because of the weaker academics.

School 2 vs 3 - interesting question. To a large extent it depends upon the player's resources and on the difference between school 2's cost after the great offer and school 3's cost with no support.

Baseball money being what it is, the decision needs to be made based upon what offers that are made, not offers that might be made.

Advise only to sign for the right reasons. Getting weary of the recruiting process and signing to bring it to an end should only be if the player has found the right school with the right program where he will be happy. You keep bringing up fair offers and great offers. The offer is meaningless unless the fit is right.

I am not sure of what you mean by a high D1, moderate to low academic program. If you are talking top 25, I don't think many of them would be considered low academic. In order to be considered for one of those schools and programs you usually have to be an above average player and student.

Reality is if one of his high dream D1 schools did not offer him an opportunity in November, it probably means he is not high dream D1 material.

I'd go with the above advice, what is offered not what might be offered.

JMO.

My son sounds a lot like yours. However I would be concerned that you do not think he is a blue chip player especially if he feel the same way. My son feels he can compete at any level.
He is currently competing for a roster spot at a D1 4yr. There are 43 guys competing fpr 32 spots. 18 pitchers. He has thrown 3 innings so far in their mini World Series and did not allow a baserunner and picked up the win in relief. His big concern is that there are only a couple of freshman pitchers and that preference will be given to Juccos and transfers who only have a couple of years left to play. He is prepared for what ever happens and is just happy to be there competing. He is having the time of his life. Our sons are young enough to blow a year or 2 even if they flop. Atleast they tried.
I also think we try too hard trying to make the right choice and in reallity they will generally enjoy which ever school they choose.

Some good points here. I'm with TPM. What is a low academic D1? Is there an actual evaluation system that classifies D-1 colleges as high, average, or poor in academics? If there is, I would like to see the curriculum of a poor academic D-1 college and read what they have to say about themselves on their website.

O44, each situation is different for each player and his family. There are so many factors that come into play that this becomes a very personal choice. You mention that the “dream” school is very expensive. Expense could be a huge factor for many parents while others might view it as insignificant. These college selection scenarios mirror the college vs. pro debate. I can only suggest what I would do if I were in the same situation which should have no bearing as to which school or program this player should choose.

BobbleheadDoll you said:

quote:

His big concern is that there are only a couple of freshman pitchers and that preference will be given to Juccos and transfers who only have a couple of years left to play.

College baseball doesn’t work that way. Your son’s talent and his contribution to the teams W-L record will determine his success or failure, not other players (JUCO and other transfers).

08Dad...

quote:

Well - the first rule of college selection needs to be - would you go there if there were no baseball...

I respectfully disagree. Also, this is not the view of many experienced posters on this site. IMHO each player needs to make his selection based on what's important to him and is within his financial means.

I believe most references to high academics vs. lesser academics is with regards to the admissions requirements.

Obviously, many GPA and SAT cutoffs are very high while others...well, not so much.

The young man needs to decide a few things:

1- how big is the risk he is willing to take to play at his dream D1? (in other words if he signs and never plays will he be okay with that)

2- you may wish to research JUCO programs a little deeper if you feel that being highly academic means they are not an option. Some top students go the JUCO route for a variety of reasons.

3- why is the last school his "dream school"? What is it about that school that attracts him? Can he find that same element elsewhere?


4- has he actually been on campus at any of these schools (especially his dream school) to determine if the reality of it meets with his expectations. (you don't need an official visit to do this)

There are no right and wrong answers in these scenarios, every kid has his own idea of success and only he can determine what will make him feel like he was successful.

LIBERTY

I respectfully disagree with you--- suppose the boy has a career ending injury , and it does happen, would he still want to be at that school. This is one of the elements of college selection --perhaps not key for all but it is for many if not most.

Fungo I told him exactly the same thing. Actually I got an e-mail from his coach saying what a great job he was doing and what a fine young man he was.
He is a bit of a perfectionist on the mound but never shows any emotion even if he is struggling.
I strongly believe that parents/players try to disect the choice too much. Most NCAA schools are good schools and if you go and you feel you made a mistake you can usually fix it.
I don't believe in transfering unless you are really unhappy with the school itself.
Many of my son's freinds have come home after a couple of years to finish their degrees at a Canadian U because their baseball was going no where and the schools here are a lot less expensive. Typically $5,000 CDN a year plus room and board.
The schools we looked at in the US were between $24,000 and $32,000 US. I figured you can add at least $2000. for flights and junk that all teenagers buy. The school just gave him $500. we were not expecting. That was very nice.
My son paid for his school by academic and baseball scholarship plus part time work and a student loan/grant from the Ontario government. He had never worked before and we saw how hard it was on his practice time and would have preferred he did not have to work. His coach has offered him summer team to play on which would involve a part time job but he cannot work off campus as an F1 student so he may have to come home and play here.
This whole process has been very exciting for him and me and we will cherish all the memories evan if he dosen't reach his ultimate goal.

Good discussion, this is what I was hoping for. No easy answer lots of good input...

Off to work but will clarify one point...

As far as college academics are concerned...While I agree with Justbaseball (as I usually do!) that an education is predominantly student dependent rather than institution generated...

The Princeton Review (respected?) puts out a book listing Americas 351 Best Colleges. These colleges are rated on the basis of campus life, selctivity, financial aid and academics from 67-99.

A quick comparison of the top DI baseball schools by last years ranking stratifies them. And yes there are some high end DI's that have relatively low academic rankings.

Stanford and ---- state are both in the top 30 but not on the same level for academics according to the Princeton Review.

quote:

Originally posted by Liberty:
08Dad...

quote:

Well - the first rule of college selection needs to be - would you go there if there were no baseball...

I respectfully disagree. Also, this is not the view of many experienced posters on this site. IMHO each player needs to make his selection based on what's important to him and is within his financial means.

I guess we will have to disagree this point - I believe that it is folly to select a college that you would not want to attend other than to play baseball. You never know what can happen...

08Dad,

I agree with Liberty. Many college baseball players go to schools they never would have considered if they were not baseball players.

It doesn't mean they were fools and picked out a college they don't like.

They pick out a school where the coach wants them on his team.

It might be a bit further away than they would have gone, had they not played baseball. It might be a bit smaller or larger than they would have otherwise selected. It might be in a town they hadn't ever heard of before, but it is the BEST OVERALL FIT. It gives them the baseball opportunities along with the basic college needs that are important to THEM.

You never know what can happen - that's true. There is a chance something could happen to eliminate baseball completely. There is also a greater chance that NOTHING will happen to eliminate baseball. That needs to be considered as well.

I for one think that you go for what YOU love most. If the dice roll against you - there is always the option to transfer at that point in time. A transfer is NOT equal to disaster.

And how many lose out because they take the riskiest path--and dont look at all the alternatives

TRHit,

I find your last post interesting. I always thought you believed in going D1 and fighting for a spot over "settling" for a D2.

There are many forms of risk.

Liberty I agree about taking risk.
A coach who is aggressive about your son takes a big bite out of the risk. They are young and deserve a shot.
We actually hated to turn down a couple of schools but they said the door was still open if he wasn't getting what he wanted out of the school he signed with. I talked to several of these coaches for hours and developed a freindship with them.
One of the schools the coach is an affiliate scout with Tampa who saw him pitch a couple of innings and grabbed him as soon as he left the mound. He was also a head coach for a pro team in NY area.He became a JUCCO coach and asked my son to sign with him. He showed a high interest and said he had ML presence on the mound. This is hard to walk away from but thye school was not for him.
I can understand TR's concern but what ball player isn't taking a risk.
To me risk is getting a $2.8M bonus and deciding to play at Gulf Costal for a year. Got a $3.2 M bonus and $4M over 5 years.

So let's assume that the player in question wants to be a movie director e.g. study film - ala one of the other postings on this board. Note that film schools are not terribly flexible about transfer students - essentially time in other degrees is largely wasted other than general ed requirements.

For school 1, University of Texas - he has a "fair offer" but they don't even have a film school. (Let's say school will cost him a net $15K per year after academic and athletic money)

For school 2, let's use Univeristy of Wisconsin- Milwaukee - one of the top 7 film schools in the country - and not exactly a baseball powerhouse - but they will give him a great offer. (Let's assume net $5K)

For school 3, USC, a baseball powerhouse and again a top film school but has been told by the baseball coach that they would be happy for him to try out as a walkon - but that there would be no money available to him at this point. (Whopping $40K per year)

It is difficult boiling down all of the variables to just two - but let's assume everything else is equal - So what would you advise? I would read the posts above as saying if he can afford it, go to Texas.

What I would say is if he can afford it, go to USC and go for it as a walk on (Wow - feels great just spending $40,000 of the fictious player's parent money). If he can't, go to UWM where the cost is less and he still has a great film school to attend. Texas falls out of consideration because he can't reach his other dream by going there...

I would take the kid in question on visits to all of the schools. Let him ask questions and get a sense of what each baseball program and academic department has to offer in person.

After each visit have both player and parents write down separate lists of pros and cons. When all of the visits are done, compare the lists, discuss, and then let him make the decision. Of course, that's assuming that all choices are financially possible for the family.

No argument with that approach - picking a college should always be preceeded with a visit if at all possible - doesn't have to be a "official" visit - just a trip to the campus while school is in session and a series of meetings with people like the Dean / Chair of the appropriate department, the baseball coach, etc.

And ultimately, it is the student's decision - with financial guidance from the billpayers - I mean parents...

I would not be so quick to dismiss the athletically "weak D1" as a problem/issue, especially if the player is not a "blue chipper". I would look at the weak baseball program as an opportunity to play. This opportunity is even better if the unversity plays in a strong league (i.e. Pac Ten, Big West....my west coast bias) and the coach shows genuine interest.

Its important the kid feels he can succeed academically and socially at the school he plans to attend.

08Dad


There is no correct answer to your scenario unless you know the particular kid in question. First of all, how sure is he about studying film? Don't forget lots of kids change majors at least once before they finish college.

Which is more important to this kid, film or baseball? That seems like a stupid question but guess what, no two kids will answer this the same. The answer to that question is more important than how much one gets for an offer.

If film is extremely important then obviously the U of Tx is missing a key element that would be hard to overlook.

Now, the next question is, how important is the competition level of baseball to THIS kid? Ever kid is different. Some want to play and have a good time, others are hoping to make it to the pro ranks.

If making the team is extremely important then how much risk is he willing to take at the baseball powerhouse?

On the other hand, how comfortable is he going to be playing on a team that is not a powerhouse? That will tell you whether USC of the U of Wi is a better fit.

In my mind, there is a lot more to the equation than how much they offer.

I agree with Liberty and others. This is all about understanding the options that are available and using those options to satisfy your personal needs and desires.

Someone once said: “When you come to a fork in the road...Take it!”

Liberty,

That is a great story about your son, thank you very much for sharing it. What a tremendous coach to correctly see his potential in another position and then help him get to MLB on that path!

I agree with the other posters who have said the priorities are different for every kid, and the student/athlete has to decide how to weigh the factors (with some help from parents). My two have been opposites. My 04 son said when he started to get serious about his college search, "I know I'm supposed to be going to college to get a degree, but I'll tell the truth. Mom, the reason I want to go to college is to play baseball. I know I have to work hard at the class stuff to be allowed to keep playing baseball." He made his own choice, but ended up picking the college which we (parents) had thought was the best for him for all the non-baseball reasons first, baseball second. He is really happy with all aspects of the school.

Other son, an 06, has always played sports but decided in grade school that music was most important to him. He has narrowed down his college choices based almost exclusively on the one thing that matters most to him: Which school has the best program for his particular music major (classical guitar)- somewhat like the film example; a lot of good music colleges do not have guitar departments. I think he could be happy at almost any college as long as the course work was preparing him for his dream of having a music career. It looks like he has narrowed down his choices to two for auditions - one would be a dream situation, studying directly with one of the best in the country, but it accepts very few and won't notify "the chosen" ones until April; and his second choice, an excellent school that also has a strong guitar program but is less selective.

Love to see all the kids following their dreams, finding their way, learning how to pursue success and deal with the bumps in the road.

Mn-Mom,

I find all these stories along with yours fascinating. I don't know about you, but I find myself living vicariously through these threads. Like the film school example or the classical guitar example, I thought to myself, "What a cool idea for a career!" For those that are lining up baseball to go along with these dreams as well...it just doesn't get any better imho....

Like you Cleveland Dad, I love the stories and the discussion that comes from these hypothetical examples.

This latest one is really thought provoking... my son is a year or two away from this challenging time - but thinking ahead a little bit should be really helpful when it is his turn.

..... the best laid plans of mice and men.....

No matter how hard we try to plan things out life has a funny way of throwing us a curve ball. The important thing to understand is that you learn to roll with the punches.

Some our best experiences have come from the aspects of our lives that didn't go as planned.

I never had so much fun as I had during the recruiting process. The research, talking to coaches and fielding offers was so exciting. I graduated from a U in eastern Canada, studied law at the Inns of Court in London England, sold guitars in Harrods of Knightsbridge London England, imported from Mexico,Philipines,Haiti,Hong Kong and travelled. I had experiences that most people dream about. The one thing I regret was not taking a full ride in football offered to me (U of TN).
My son is living his dream and I support him 100%. Unfortunately he dosen't have a career goal other than throwing a baseball.

AParent---

One of the wisest posts I've seen in a long time! AMEN to that!