What are the pros and cons of redshirting.
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having a son who redshirted his freshnan year at a major division one program I can you there are many benefitsacademically it allows the player to get a year of academics out of the way with no baseball. for a freshman as my son was this was a tremendous boost for him as he got acclimated to the rigors of college.as a 17 year freshman it gave him the opportunity to physically begin to mature. and since his competition at hisposition was a 25 year old huco transfer this became a huge plus for him while at the same time because when his soph year rolled around he was ready for bear.and still had 4 years of eligibility remaining. it all worked well for him.
Under what conditions (other than injury) would a player red-shirt?
quote:Originally posted by Go Dawgs:
Under what conditions (other than injury) would a player red-shirt?
If you are speaking of D1 programs, it is very rare these days to find one that redshirts players, which is different from a medical waiver.
The purpose of the redshirt years ago with a roster of 40-45 was because not all of the players could be on the roster. So therefore the ones that definetly needed time to develop were redshirted.
The rules have changed, in roster size, scholarship amounts given as well as scholarship limits awarded per team (27 players only) as opposed to many more that received athletic $$ years ago. D1 coaches cannot afford to have a player on scholarship for 5 years anymore.
IMO, players don't get better by sitting on the bench, or taking time off while their peers get in much needed experience to get ahead, it's all about getting the work in, and I can tell you from personal experience the more you sit for whatever reason the more you fall behind, no matter how good your skills are.
I am not sure of why you are asking this question, but IMO players should look for programs that they will contribute to right away, not in a year. My opinion is that nowadays if a coach asks a player to redshirt he didn't belong there in the first place. Actually I would give that advice for most programs. If it is because the player needs more time to work on his academics but still play, JUCO offers great alternatives.
Sorry if my opinion differs from others, but this is 2011 going on the 2012 season and the redshirt philososphy is much different that it was when my son wasbeing recruited just about 10 YEARS AGO.
TPM's right. The combination of the 11.7 scholarship limitation and a capped roster size virtually prohibits redshirting for developmental reasons these days (and it wasn't very common before the capped roster came into effect). That leaves the medical redshirt as the only remaining viable way to redshirt.
Today, redshirting for developmental purposes is virtually limited to football, where the coaches have the luxury of offering 85 full scholarships.
Today, redshirting for developmental purposes is virtually limited to football, where the coaches have the luxury of offering 85 full scholarships.
Prepster,
I understand that it is even very difficult getting a medical waiver these days, do you know if that is true?
I understand that it is even very difficult getting a medical waiver these days, do you know if that is true?
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
I am not sure of why you are asking this question, but IMO players should look for programs that they will contribute to right away, not in a year.
Curiosity. I too will have a 17 year old college freshman. One of the schools recruiting him has no less than 7 red shirted players currently on their roster. I thought injury would be the only reason for a kid to red shirt these days, but didn't know if age was another reason. You've laid out very good reasons why that probably doesn't happen anymore.
quote:Originally posted by Go Dawgs:quote:Originally posted by TPM:
I am not sure of why you are asking this question, but IMO players should look for programs that they will contribute to right away, not in a year.
Curiosity. I too will have a 17 year old college freshman. One of the schools recruiting him has no less than 7 red shirted players currently on their roster. I thought injury would be the only reason for a kid to red shirt these days, but didn't know if age was another reason. You've laid out very good reasons why that probably doesn't happen anymore.
My post was more in reference to D1 not to other divisions, which are over crowed due to D1 players moving downward.
This is a personal decision and should be discussed with the coaches during the recruitment.
There is so much talent out there these days, I do not see sitting out a year a viable option. Neither is burning a year of eligibility, but if the program keeps players for 5 years it's a better option. JMO that most do not.
Keep in mind that the redshirt designation does not come until the championship season is over. So those 7 players designated as redshirt may have come at different times or transfered.
Go Dawgs,
Redshirt is a colloquial term, so it's used in a variety of ways.
Perhaps the most common is to refer to a player who by pre-arrangement with the coaches has decided in advance to not compete during a season. This practice is fairly common in football and wrestling, where size or strength to weight ratio is very important.
Notice, however, that the above definition applies to the great majority of the student body! So people sometimes refer to a player who in actuality was cut as "redshirting". In contrast, for football or wrestling, the arrangement includes a upfront commitment to 5 years of scholarship, and a course of studies to match. I doubt that any baseball players have such an arrangement.
In D1, a player must be on the 35 man roster in order to practice during the spring season. Of these 35, 25 can travel. A few players may move on or off the 25 man roster, but usually several players end up not competing throughout the season. Retrospectively, we can think of those players as having redshirted, but if circumstances had changed (e.g. the loss of some players ahead of them) they would have competed.
In other divisions, there is no mandated roster or practice size, so the school may choose to carry quite a few players who have no realistic chance of competing. Most of these players will think of themselves as redshirting.
Rosters often refer to "redshirt freshman" or "redshirt junior". This does not imply any pre-arrangement; it just means that the player didn't compete during a season, regardless of reason. Nearly all D1 teams will carry several "redshirt freshmen" on their fall roster. Some of these are players who weren't good enough to make the team in the previous year and are trying out again; some are players who made the team in the previous year but weren't good enough to play in games; some are players who were hurt during or before the previous season.
Players who who suffered a season ending injury may be granted a hardship waiver. If the player was injured in the first part of the season, he may be awarded a 5th season of competition. (If he was injured before the season, he didn't use a season of competition, so a waiver for the additional season isn't necessary.) If player has two season ending injuries, he may be granted a different kind of waiver which permits a 6th calendar year of eligibility.
TPM, it's quite straightforward to get a hardship waiver for a season-ending injury, as long as a doctor declared it to be so at the time of the injury. From 14.2.4.33: Contemporaneous or other appropriate medical documentation, from a physician (a medical doctor) who administered care at the time of the injury or illness, that establishes the student-athlete’s inability to compete as a result of that injury or illness shall be submitted with any hardship-waiver request.
Redshirt is a colloquial term, so it's used in a variety of ways.
Perhaps the most common is to refer to a player who by pre-arrangement with the coaches has decided in advance to not compete during a season. This practice is fairly common in football and wrestling, where size or strength to weight ratio is very important.
Notice, however, that the above definition applies to the great majority of the student body! So people sometimes refer to a player who in actuality was cut as "redshirting". In contrast, for football or wrestling, the arrangement includes a upfront commitment to 5 years of scholarship, and a course of studies to match. I doubt that any baseball players have such an arrangement.
In D1, a player must be on the 35 man roster in order to practice during the spring season. Of these 35, 25 can travel. A few players may move on or off the 25 man roster, but usually several players end up not competing throughout the season. Retrospectively, we can think of those players as having redshirted, but if circumstances had changed (e.g. the loss of some players ahead of them) they would have competed.
In other divisions, there is no mandated roster or practice size, so the school may choose to carry quite a few players who have no realistic chance of competing. Most of these players will think of themselves as redshirting.
Rosters often refer to "redshirt freshman" or "redshirt junior". This does not imply any pre-arrangement; it just means that the player didn't compete during a season, regardless of reason. Nearly all D1 teams will carry several "redshirt freshmen" on their fall roster. Some of these are players who weren't good enough to make the team in the previous year and are trying out again; some are players who made the team in the previous year but weren't good enough to play in games; some are players who were hurt during or before the previous season.
Players who who suffered a season ending injury may be granted a hardship waiver. If the player was injured in the first part of the season, he may be awarded a 5th season of competition. (If he was injured before the season, he didn't use a season of competition, so a waiver for the additional season isn't necessary.) If player has two season ending injuries, he may be granted a different kind of waiver which permits a 6th calendar year of eligibility.
TPM, it's quite straightforward to get a hardship waiver for a season-ending injury, as long as a doctor declared it to be so at the time of the injury. From 14.2.4.33: Contemporaneous or other appropriate medical documentation, from a physician (a medical doctor) who administered care at the time of the injury or illness, that establishes the student-athlete’s inability to compete as a result of that injury or illness shall be submitted with any hardship-waiver request.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
having a son who redshirted his freshnan year at a major division one program I can you there are many benefitsacademically it allows the player to get a year of academics out of the way with no baseball. for a freshman as my son was this was a tremendous boost for him as he got acclimated to the rigors of college.as a 17 year freshman it gave him the opportunity to physically begin to mature. and since his competition at hisposition was a 25 year old huco transfer this became a huge plus for him while at the same time because when his soph year rolled around he was ready for bear.and still had 4 years of eligibility remaining. it all worked well for him.
Thanks for the input about redshirting, I now have a better understanding of how it works. My son is in a similar situation as TRhit. Very good example, currently is attending a DII school and I had my concerns, he said that he talked it over with his coach. This will also give him the opportunity to continue conditioning/ strenghting his body. Thanks for replies. I appreciate it.
I'm not following the 'he will have more time for academics' part. My understanding is that redshirts still have winter workouts and go to spring practice and games. How much more time will they really have?
antz dad as a redshirt there is no traveling with the team---there is definitely more time for academics
quote:Originally posted by AntzDad:
I'm not following the 'he will have more time for academics' part. My understanding is that redshirts still have winter workouts and go to spring practice and games. How much more time will they really have?
I think it depends on the program. Where son went you were pretty much with the team everyday except for travel on weekends. Workouts, practice, and you wore a uni in the dugout. Some programs don't do this, which boggles my mind, how can you get better if you don't participate in some way, how do you learn if you do not travel or watch games?
quote:Originally posted by Go Dawgs:
Under what conditions (other than injury) would a player red-shirt?
Your "Dawg" SEC school is one that routinely red-shirts players, particularly pitchers that they have determined do not fit into their plans for the coming Spring.
I am not of the camp that sitting out a year is all bad, "that you WON'T get better if you are not competing."
Personally, I've witnessed a player there maturing physically and getting a good academic start while adjusting to big campus life. He was a bit put-off by the process as Redshirts are basically ignored during their off season and left to fend for themselves. They didn't practice or travel with the team. He returned to Fall practice strong, performed well and has been told he now "fits into their plans for the coming year."
The other Pitcher decided not to return to baseball but to just enjoy College life (after being told he probably didn't fit into their plans).
PrimeJr's school doesn't RedShirt except for medical reasons. If they brought you in, as a position player, you may not see the field much, but you WILL not be red shirted as it just doesn't fit into their philosophy.
My son's school has the virtual opposite philosophy as Prime9's as 'most' freshmen for the five years I have observed the team have been redshirted and hardly any have started. This year will be no different as a veteran group of returnees and Juco transfers are in place. All and all I think coaches can also hold guys in reserve, get them used to the system and have those guys as building blocks for four more years. Many guys though do leave after redshirting if they are not going be one of those career guys as opposed to Juco transfers. Only my son and one pitcher are left of the five or six that were redshirted his freshman year.
You gotta play, and play alot or it's not worth it.
Am aware of a situation that bodes well for the right candidate. Good athletic scholarship money for an accomplished pitcher who wants to transfer to a warm weather, top tier D2 program (national top 3 in wins over the past 30 years) — eligible Spring ’12. Coach is a class act with a sterling national reputation and has a top contender this year. One more quality arm could possibly makes difference in a CWS appearance...
Frankly, I’m sick of college coaches who dump their senior’s scholly money or red shirt talented non injured players and assume that the player will stay because he has no other options. Ideal situation for quality D1 pitcher who had good stats from a top summer league and was thinking of leaving his current school at the winter break.
I know it’s late and all, but, we’ve been through this particular drill ourselves - son made a similar move to this school (700 miles away) late two July's ago after an all-league selection in his east coast college summer league and batting over .300 soph year at his D1. He is exceedingly happy on and off the field.
just wanted to share the wealth. How else is a deserving player going to find out about situations like this one?
Am aware of a situation that bodes well for the right candidate. Good athletic scholarship money for an accomplished pitcher who wants to transfer to a warm weather, top tier D2 program (national top 3 in wins over the past 30 years) — eligible Spring ’12. Coach is a class act with a sterling national reputation and has a top contender this year. One more quality arm could possibly makes difference in a CWS appearance...
Frankly, I’m sick of college coaches who dump their senior’s scholly money or red shirt talented non injured players and assume that the player will stay because he has no other options. Ideal situation for quality D1 pitcher who had good stats from a top summer league and was thinking of leaving his current school at the winter break.
I know it’s late and all, but, we’ve been through this particular drill ourselves - son made a similar move to this school (700 miles away) late two July's ago after an all-league selection in his east coast college summer league and batting over .300 soph year at his D1. He is exceedingly happy on and off the field.
just wanted to share the wealth. How else is a deserving player going to find out about situations like this one?
Mine was redshirted in his freshman year at a big time D1 school. No pre-arrangement, just a decision by the coaches as the season went on. Practiced every day, traveled to all games, just no playing time.
We were a little irritated at the time but it beat those few other freshman who got a couple of at-bats or an inning and lost a whole year of eligibility in the process. Does make for a long season though....
We were a little irritated at the time but it beat those few other freshman who got a couple of at-bats or an inning and lost a whole year of eligibility in the process. Does make for a long season though....
Txrock: can you give some info on what happened in the years following his red shirt year? Also, did he play summer ball following his red shirt year?
Regarding eligibilty for a 5th year. I equate that to playing with 8th graders when you're a senior in high school. Think about it... is it really worth it? When it's time to move on then do it. For pitchers to emerge from redshirt to a valuable arm on the staff he must first pass through the role of mop up or weekday relief. Between new scholly players (particularly pitchers) coming into the program, the low rung upon which a current red shirt sits then having to negotiate two rungs on the ladder to even make a difference to the fortunes of the team. All while the sands of time (and eligibility and repetition and confidence) slip away. Tough pill to swallow for a player who used to be 'the man', don't you think?
Make a difference, fulfill your promise if your that good, pro scouts willl find you in the Peach Belt or the Sunshine ...transfer to a situation where you can compete for a regional berth or better, compete for a weekend starter or key reliever spot and not have to sit a year to do it.
The push to be a D1 when the designation is so broad and overlapping is ludicrous. There are so many excellent D2 programs, particularly in the south that would appreciate a good quality, high level D1 pitcher who is caught in a logjam of talent as his current school. He could probably get scholly money right now for Spring '12 eligibilty if he's man enough to take the road less traveled and move quickly to a more fertile situation.
Otherwise, enjoy another season charting pitches and chasing foul balls, and dreaming of 'next year' with your red shirt on, or worse sitting in the 'pen languishing and waiting for your team to go up or down by 10 runs so you'll have a shot to get some work. Remember, you only go around this college experience once. Good luck!
Make a difference, fulfill your promise if your that good, pro scouts willl find you in the Peach Belt or the Sunshine ...transfer to a situation where you can compete for a regional berth or better, compete for a weekend starter or key reliever spot and not have to sit a year to do it.
The push to be a D1 when the designation is so broad and overlapping is ludicrous. There are so many excellent D2 programs, particularly in the south that would appreciate a good quality, high level D1 pitcher who is caught in a logjam of talent as his current school. He could probably get scholly money right now for Spring '12 eligibilty if he's man enough to take the road less traveled and move quickly to a more fertile situation.
Otherwise, enjoy another season charting pitches and chasing foul balls, and dreaming of 'next year' with your red shirt on, or worse sitting in the 'pen languishing and waiting for your team to go up or down by 10 runs so you'll have a shot to get some work. Remember, you only go around this college experience once. Good luck!