Reflection

What you talkin 'bout?

Just a little transition from high school to college going on there.......

Some are staying behind, some going to college, and some heading out to take their shot.

The music is still playing.

Just less boys and less seats.........

And, the music speeds up.

Good luck collikar............

I'll be observing.

My guess is that collikar's son's team is impacted by the multitude of summer "opportunities" offered to these highly recruited kids....which leaves the team at less then its best.

Let's not get KG started here.

quote:

Originally posted by collikar:
For several years I've read Guthrie's posts about kids needing to commit to playing for their summer teams. Now, I finally understand the importance of his posts regarding the "team" effect! He's been dead on! It's great for kids to go out and get their individual accolades, but it definitely puts their teammates at a disadvantage.

Coaches promise to do their best best to get your kid to the "next level", and when the players get the opportunity... is this what you hear?

C'mon, those guys had no problem cashing those checks when the season started, all the while knowing they may have "next level" players seeking "individual accolades" as they tried to further their baseball careers.

If a parent spent countless days in the sun year after year, countless dollars getting to national tourneys or eating nasty fast food because they're always on the run, sacrificed their family vacations, spring breaks, weekends fishing or hunting, etc... and then, an opportunity arrises for his kid and they take advantage of it, all of a sudden, there's a question of loyalty and committment?

GET A GRIP

quote:

Coaches promise to do their best best to get your kid to the "next level", and when the players get the opportunity... is this what you hear?

C'mon, those guys had no problem cashing those checks when the season started, all the while knowing they may have "next level" players seeking "individual accolades" as they tried to further their baseball careers.

If a parent spent countless days in the sun year after year, countless dollars getting to national tourneys or eating nasty fast food because they're always on the run, sacrificed their family vacations, spring breaks, weekends fishing or hunting, etc... and then, an opportunity arrises for his kid and they take advantage of it, all of a sudden, there's a question of loyalty and committment?

GET A GRIP

Amen

Hmmmm....interesting topic. For me to develop an opinion I think I need to hear more from KG on this matter.

"If a parent spent countless days in the sun year after year, countless dollars getting to national tourneys or eating nasty fast food because they're always on the run, sacrificed their family vacations, spring breaks, weekends fishing or hunting,..."


Heck,I've been doing that for 3 or 4 years just because I enjoy watching my sons play(baseball or anything else). Sounds like what happens when you have children.

Some folks won't get it, some folks will get it, and some folks got it.

In the end, when it's time for reflection, the player will understand the true meaning and importance of a team concept.

Opportunities are a dime a dozen in the game of life.

It's the character in the decisions you make and what you actually do with an opportunity.

Opportunities come in many different and not so tangible ways. Some seek them, as others never knew the opportunity they were getting until it actually was created in the present.

As a parent, I've learned convincing another parent most likely won't happen. Which has helped me as a coach as this summer continues.

Today was a special day. A team was created. Some think a roster on paper prior to a schedule is a team. Our kids learned today what a team really is and how special being part of one can be.

Cashing that check all the way to the bank.

In the poor house regards,

It's the character in the decisions you make and what you actually do with an opportunity.

I hope my son has the opportunity to play for coaches with this philosophy and who live accordingly. As parents and coaches we need to be aware about the lesson learned from the choices we make and help our children make. "Trading up" for something better is fine in real estate, but not when people are involved.

Sounds like the ugly green monster rearing its head.

Great posts in this thread....

Some off-the-cuff stuff from a wanna be Texan

I like the fact we live in a free country. For those that think there are better opportunities someplace else - that does not bother me at all.

For my own views however, I agree with what Ken Guthrie has said. I believe in teams and loyalty and all that other corny stuff. I believe there are fine things to be learned/gained from it.

I remember my son being contacted to move on and play here or play there. His previous coach was expecting him to come back and provide leadership for the younger players coming up. I asked my son to consider staying and fulfill that role. He said, "Dad, they won't be as good with all the new guys and this other team has chance to win" I said, "Weren't you thrilled when you were one of the young guys playing up on the team last year?" "Remember how thrilled you were when that coach gave you the opportunity to play with some older guys last year?" I told him it was his decision to make and I think he chose the one I suggested out of respect for me but if left to his own desires he would have chosen otherwise. In the end, the right decision was made. He played with a core group of guys until he left for college. They were not the most talented team but they were plenty talented enough to compete.

My message to parents is simple. Play on as competitive team as you can find but have them play with people they enjoy being around. They do not have to play on the most elite team to get noticed or more importantly develop their skills. There is value in being part of a team.

I have seen the loyalty game played in reverse unfortunately however. I have seen kids who were with a team for years and were steady, competant performers. I have seen coaches recruit players to try and win a tournament or to increase the prestige of the team and kind of brush these steady/loyal kids to the side. There is something that doesn't seem right about that either and I wouldn't blame a kid for leaving under those circumstances.

quote:

Originally posted by collikar:
For several years I've read Guthrie's posts about kids needing to commit to playing for their summer teams. Now, I finally understand the importance of his posts regarding the "team" effect! He's been dead on! It's great for kids to go out and get their individual accolades, but it definitely puts their teammates at a disadvantage.

Collikar,

It seems you are having a small issue with some missing "team-mates". But if you think about it that whole process it is exactly the organization your son plays for and they encourage the players to go to the individual events to better their selves and the brand. They also place the brand in front being loyal to some of their players when it betters the brand. Last years Plano Tournament and several others come to mind when "non-roster" players were brought in for a Sunday game in front of several college scouts. In other tournaments other brand players were brought in and hit and pitched in front of "real" teammates that had been on your roster all year. Here is the thing - did more scouts show-up to see the added players or not? I think in the end the answer is most likely yes, so the rest of the "teamamtes" benefitted from being seen during those games.

Please remember that in the end playing for the brand helped get your son the scholarship at Baylor and that was the first goal. Now it would be nice to see the core of a team continue to stay together and win the Connie Mack and that still might happen. For Tyco's sake I hope it does.

While Ken's values should be true for most players and most teams they are a little bit different for the brand. Their focus is mainly on the best players and their advancement which serves both the players and the brand and then the next set of players that follow. Your son is and was one of those best players and I have always enjoyed wacthing him play and cheering with you when I had the chance.

It took a lot of reflection to come to peace with this model and my son had a chance to benefit from the model but in the end it wasn't in God's will for him to play college ball. In the end I had to admit to myself that I knew what I was letting my son get into when you said yes to playing for the brand.

This is a sincere post and no disrespect is meant by it toward any organization, in fact just the opposite is my intent. Upon reflection I can see how the whole thing works and a player with good council from his parents can elect to play for a team that competes and is driven by the model that Ken beleives in or the player can elect to try and play at a level above that knowing that sometimes players are brought in or sometimes players (teammates) will be missing but in the end they will have a better chance to be seen playing for the brand. I do beleive that for the most part the team Tyco plays for is a "team" and they shared and competed together and they will always remember their teammates well when they get to the point of reflection.

JMHO

My son was faced with an opportunity a season or two ago and I was totally surprised by his actions/decision. He was playing for a Junior College and after his freshman year, signed to play for a Big 12 team following the completion of his sophomore year in juco. The Big 12 team called in November of his sophomore year and asked him to come there in January and play that spring. To my surprise, my son told the coaches that he had made a commitment to his juco teammates and coaches for 2 years. He also felt that they had unfinished business from the previous year as their season ended sooner than they had hoped. In the end, he was fortunate enough to help his team win the Juco National Championship and went on to the Big 12 team last season and played every game.

I am proud of him for the commitment he had. I have coached in the past and can remember one player that was not as committed to the team approach. While it did allow him to reach some short term goals, I am seeing now that it has hurt him in the long run. I doubt if his parents or he will ever realize what has happened.

"Heck,I've been doing that for 3 or 4 years just because I enjoy watching my sons play(baseball or anything else). Sounds like what happens when you have children."
___________________________________________________________

HR, you were lucky to have sons that both enjoyed the same thing and you didn't have to split as much time between them. Throw daughters that don't like baseball into the mix and someones missing daddy more than the other.

For the board:
My son's not at that next level yet. He's either played for the same organization, or with the same core group of ballplayers for five years now. The team has had different coaches, a few different players come and go, and now different uniforms, but it has been the same team since he was 10. When our teams season would end, other players would take the opportunity to continue to play with other teams. My kid has been invited, and we chose not to. We never begrudged the other players their opportunities. But I can't say with honesty that my kid didn't feel like he was missing out on something as some of his teammates comeback with stories from Orlando, Steamboat, Arizona, or wherever.

I think this whole subject is the reason some organizations put more emphasis on their 17 yo teams getting to Farmington rather than their 18 yo's.

Much of what you guys say is true. Without rambling on, I believe collikar was simply saying she can see where Guthrie is coming from with regards trying build a team. Kids have every right to go to what they want to, but it simply makes it difficult for the coach to create a "team" atmosphere.

Certainly, we owe the organization for giving our son the opportunity to earn the BU scholly. That has nothing to do with this issue. She is simply saying she sees where Guthrie has been coming from...nothing more.

From my experience, another factor inhibiting the "team" atmosphere for the select organizations is that often the "teams" are built with a collection of high profile all-stars with little regard for how individuals can and will fit the team.

I think ACowboyFan and Tycho both got it right in their comments...it is very difficult to bring together a collection of high profile kids and expect them to quickly gel in terms of commitment to the team -- both on and off the field. However, the organizations put themselves in this position by constantly retooling teams to include the "most talented" kids, bringing in guest players for high profile tournaments, and in promoting the individual to help the brand.

I'd submit that any organization has the opportunity to build their team with lesser talented kids willing to make an upfront commitment to the team, but don't do so because they'd rather have the more talented, higher profile kids. The cost of this decision often is less team and more a collection of individuals.

The system is what it is and there can be tremendous value to both individuals and the organizations in how it's currently set up. I admire the kids that feel like they've made a commitment to the team and that supercedes other opportunities, but I don't condemn those that don't feel the same way (unless they specifically made certain commitments to coach and team that they aren't living up to). My view is that since generally I'm not privvy to discussions between a young man and coach during the recruiting process, it's difficult for me to determine whether an individual is living up to their commitment or not. That's for the coaches to decide and address with the player accordingly.

quote:

Originally posted by KellerDad:
I think this whole subject is the reason some organizations put more emphasis on their 17 yo teams getting to Farmington rather than their 18 yo's.

Your thoughts are incorrect.

Baseball at all levels should include a team goal(s). For HS, it's state....for summer, it's Farmington (or a multitude of other "world series")....for college, it's Omaha. All of these venues are elusive, making it all the more special to get there. For those that make it, the experience may be an athlete's final TEAM achievement. I wish my sons had played in Austin or Farmington. I hope the remaining player gets a chance to play in Omaha.

Imagine the experience that some of our local favorites took in over the past few weeks --- Cole, Brandon(B), Cameron, Tant, Tim, Brandon --- it was fun to see your joy. And what a sense of TEAM!



Ken -- were any of your games officiated by the Lollipop twins????

Oh....and where's ????

My Reflection:

My son played up last year knowing he would not have as much "looks" from the recruiting world. He by-passed that to play for no doubt the best coach in the country Sam Carpenter. Our son has dreamed of Farmington the last three years for the team competition and experience. We understand that when a player is missing it changes the chemistry of the team. Last summer players were missed but it is not for us to judge what the reasons were for....only the coach!

I can not speak for all the missing players but I can tell you that our son attended the State All
Star Game last week not for any individual accolades. He was ask by the Texas HS Baseball
Coaches Association and his coach to put on his Panther uni one more time and represent his coach, school,community and "The North" one last time. He was truly in awe that he was invited to be part of such an unbelievable talented group.

For personal reasons our son and family made the choice for him to be part of "Team Texas" playing in Norman this week. For anyone that really knows him knows he is a "gammer". He desires always to face the best competition. He is a pitcher and missed a (1) start and missed sitting supporting his summer team in Atlanta. I know the players that know him understand that he represnted the great state of TEXAS and it was not for any individual accolades.

Team Texas will be playing the Championship game tonight in Norman at 7:00pm. They are 6-0 for the week. I could not attend but I send my prayers for a safe journey home for all Team Texas teammates.

quote:

Originally posted by Panther Dad:


Ken -- were any of your games officiated by the Lollipop twins????

Oh....and where's ????

Haven't seen any twins except a few at that place that serves hot wings.

Kermit is here in the heat still as loud as ever.

It's down to the final 3, like usual the arms are pretty much done.

It's all about who wants it more and which team gets the right bounce of the ball.

Either way, this week has been a huge character builder for 18 individual baseball players that make up the most important part of the the game............

A TEAM.

Here's another reflection/observation:

Ken,

Do you believe that there might be something to keeping the same coach with the same group of players throughout the years? Do you think the chemistry you're building with your team would be beneficial if you were at the helm again next year? This concept seems to be working for the Dallas Tigers.

And by the way, congratulations to Tommy Tiger's TEAM. The majority of these boys have been together since they were knee-high to a grasshopper! It's wonderful that North Texas will have representation in Farmington.

quote:

Some folks won't get it, some folks will get it, and some folks got it.

In the end, when it's time for reflection, the player will understand the true meaning and importance of a team concept.

It's funny to me you only hear about the team concept stuff when a player decides to do what he thinks is best for him. Where are the team concept discussions when the club cuts the 5'8" 130 lb kid in favor of the 6'1" 210 lb kid? It's a two way street. Commit to the kid/parents, and I'll bet you have kids that believe in the team concept. Don't expect him to believe it when his buddy gets cut for the flavor of the day......

quote:

Originally posted by collikar:
Here's another reflection/observation:

Ken,

Do you believe that there might be something to keeping the same coach with the same group of players throughout the years? Do you think the chemistry you're building with your team would be beneficial if you were at the helm again next year?

Yes I do believe there is benefit. Although chemistry is important, it helps if the kids already know the expectations of the coach and the standards put forth are already imprinted. Thus allowing more time for focus on improvement in other areas versus trying to get players to buy into the system.

quote:

This concept seems to be working for the Dallas Tigers.

This concept has worked for the Tigers as well as many other area teams. Always remember, winning takes care of everything. Right now the Tigers are the hot flavor. They won. Who knows who will win the regional tournament. Whoever does will be talked about in high regards then as well.

This years Tigers 18U team is VERY physical. I can't remember a more powerful team in years past. In saying that, a 16 year old arm beat them on one night. Doesn't mean they wouldn't put the whoop azz on us today or us getting another "W" if we matched up again.

What most of you all miss is, this is baseball. Things happen. There are good periods and bad periods for all teams. So many want to waive the white flag as soon as a few losses rack up. That's why the W/L column means so much less to me than trying to create a team atmosphere and working towards a common goal to keep the team focus on something. In this case, Farmington. That's what will stick with each group. Those are the values that stay with them as they go forward. W/L's, showcases, statistics, and publicity is all meaningless garbage 10 years from now when these boys become men and have to make decisions in the game of life.

The issue you run into when you take 17's to 18's is the desire level of some DFW baseball players decreases drastically during their senior summer.

That's why it's rediculous when you hear folks like Kellerdad mention league games mean nothing. As coaches you must teach that every game means just as much as the last or the next. This is what insures respect for the game.

Unless you can weed out the ones that don't respect the game at all times regardless of venue, location, benefit, etc. When I review the roster I coach today, I can already tell which ones will most likely cash it in once they sign to the college of their choice. In the end, those will be the ones that have limited success wherever they go.

quote:

And by the way, congratulations to Tommy Tiger's TEAM. The majority of these boys have been together since they were knee-high to a grasshopper! It's wonderful that North Texas will have representation in Farmington.

Ditto. Heath Autry and Tommy have done a fine job with this bunch. But seeing how big those boys were you could stick a monkey in the coaches box and I think they would get their fair share of wins.

As a summer league coach for 12 years I repeatedly got frustrated with my better players leaving for the D-Bat/Tigers teams. (actually my feelings were hurt). But then it occured to me, as a parent we do what is best for our kids. Sometimes this should be making them stay put because they committed to the team. Sometimes this is to move on, so they can have 100 scouts watching in East Cobb as opposed to the "o" watching a lesser named team. It is an individual "family" decision that probably shouldn't be judged by others. Once these guys get to be 16 years old, the teams must realize they will not have the cohesiveness thay had at 12. The family needs to do what is best for Jr., but they also need to be open about it, as well as recognizing committment and character in all their decisions.

quote:

Originally posted by Robert S.:
But then it occured to me, as a parent we do what is best for our kids.

You got that right. And each parent should be expected to do so.

But in reality, what some parents think is best for their kids and what really is best are two different things.

That essentially is the issue in itself.