Restricting players

quote:

Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
This a question but actually a pet peave. I spend a considerable amount of time on various boards, several that are Fed only. Up until this year umps could only restrict coaches to the dugout. This was to be used if the coach was out of line but you didn't want to toss him for whatever reason. Last year they added the ability to restict a player but for only one violation, illegal substitution. For some reason some umpires have taken this and treid to expand it to allow them to restrict for all sorts of minor violations.
This is not allowed under the current rules and shouldn't be recommended by experienced instructors. Things are slow so I'm posting this just to generate some discussion.

I feel some are confused as to if you can restrict a coach, the same applies to a player. Since ejection can carry a penalty of an additional one game suspension, restriction to the bench for an illegal substitution is a proper penalty with me. It could be coaches or players fault that it happened. It's going to be accidental in my opinion and can be avoided often times with good preventive umpiring.

If you do eject a player at the FED level, do not make them leave the dugout area. Players are to be under supervision at all times. Don't make them go set on the bus by themselves.

MST,

I think we have discussed this in the past. I am not too much of a fan of the "coach restriction to the dugout". Based on the incident, I have felt a coach either deserved to be ejected or not at all.....

I have seen way to many new umpires restrict coaches to the bench for flagrant offenses that should have merited ejection and also restricted for minor offenses which in the course of HS Varsity level baseball should not be punished.

That being said, I agree that as trainers we have to make it clear to the newer umpire that just because we have this leeway with coaches, you can not extend it to cover players......

To reference this to my past post on catchers obstruction , its why I make a point to explain and teach that even though its commonly called CI it is an obstruction call......I want to teach the rules and their application.......too many times I have to correct newer umpires who are searching/stretching for rules to cover situations.......

good topic though........

in many state associations now, there is a hefty monetary penalty+suspension for coaches who are tossed from games. While that is good in that it helps restrain coach behavior, it also makes umpires more reluctant to eject. This could be a factor in restricting coaches/players when in the past their actions warranted ejection.

I agree that many states have made the penalties fairly harse for being tossed as a coach, but that doesn't change my decision to get rid of them. I'm like PIAA, I don't restrict coaches. If they do something that I feel warrents them leaving then they go.
As to the players, it very specific when and why you restrict them, and the rule is probably good. However, I have seen many try to extent it to cover other crimes that are lesser in nature but isn't covered under the restriction policy. If it's an illegal sub then put them in the dugout. If anything else then they are to be ejected.

I don't mind the restiction process. However, ejections are never pretty and should take place when warranted. Restriction is good for the coach that is whiny and complains to the point where you just get tired of listening to them. These are the sub-varsity coaches that are young and still haven't quite figured out the correct protocol for high school. Also, they are usually coaching solo and ejection would result in forfeit. To me, that is just cheating the kids out of playing time they don't get that often.

Over the years, I've just been blessed enough to work with some very fine coaches that understand their role as a educator and leader of young men. They respect the fact that you show up early, act professional, hustle and give them your best on any given day. Most coaches with successful programs year after year generally fit this mold.

I feel restriction is there for a reason that the powers in FED feel is for the greater good of all particapants.

I coached back when High school baseball resembled baseball. What is an illegal substitution? I am sure it has something to do with the rentry rule.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
I coached back when High school baseball resembled baseball. What is an illegal substitution? I am sure it has something to do with the rentry rule.

The same as all baseball. Most of the time if an illegal substitution took place re-entry would probably have something to do with it. Sending in the wrong courtesy runner is another thing that comes to mind. Just anything where the substitution is illegal. An unannounced substitution is not an illegal substitute.

When you compare baseball to other sports baseball coaches have it worse when it comes to ejections. Like has been mentioned - if I get tossed I have to sit out a game and my school pays $50. I really don't have a problem with that. If you get tossed you should pay some sort of consequences.

My problem is that there is no middle ground before ejections in baseball. Yes I know restricting to the dugout could be seen as that but like you guys have said - either you take what the coach says or you toss him. Most umps feel this way.

In basketball you have a technical foul and football has several types of 15 yard penalties if a coach goes too far. If they go past that then they get tossed - which is fair. Baseball doesn't have that. If I go out to discuss a call or ask for a clarification and the ump doesn't want to hear it - he can toss me. I know that is an unlikely scenario but it's possible.

Umps do make mistakes and they do miss calls. Most realize it and will let the coach have a few words and even admit to their mistake. That usually takes care of the situation. But there are umps who are either egotistical or inept or inexperienced and will have a quick thumb.

Restricting to the dugout is not the same as a techinical or 15 yard penalty. With the technical or 15 yard penalty the coach can still coach and move around and make decisions. If a baseball coach is restricted to the dugout they cannot come out of the dugout unless there is an injured player. Most high school coahces coach third base box but if they are restricted then they cannot do this job - when you compare it to other sports it's not fair. A baseball coach has his hands tied for the rest of the game while other sports do not.

I would think something like allowing the offensive team to automatically put a runner on second or take an out off the board or the other team. Those hurt the team whose coach has gone a little too far but can still within reason overcome those punishments. Now those were punishments off the top of my head so there could be others I didn't think of.

I just don't think restricting to the dugout for coaches is fair when compared to other sports. Sorry for hijacking the thread if it turns out that way.

I gotta agree with coach2709 when he says umpires are sometimes too quick to toss a coach. Or in this case, restrict them to the dugout. I say this when I played for a high school coach who has been kicked out on several occassions. Lucky for him I don't think our state has a fine. If the school had to pay a fine for him getting ejected, I'd guess he would be out of a job.

Anyway, last year we had one where something happen. We had a play with bases loaded and a popfly to shallow center that just screwed everybody up. One ump called it a catch, our runners were so messed up, and somehow we came out on top. Next play something happen and I don't even remember what, but our coach left his 3rd base coaching box and stepped across the chalk line and the base umpire immediately sent him to the dugout. He crossed the chalk line and end of discussion!

But what can you do? Fact of life-- some are good at what they do and some are not.

A restricted coach can still coach. He con do everything that an unrestricted caoch can except come out of the dugout. If he needs to talk to his pitcher, he can bring him over to the dugout. It is no different than when a coach isn't wearing a uniform. No uniforn no access to the field. This true in all codes. Some managers in the pros wouldn't wear a uniform and did everything but coach a base, visit the pitcher or discuss a call with an umpire.
An illegal sub can come in several different ways, of which many include a re-entry but not all. You could use a CR and then enter him as an offensive sub later in the inning. You could put your DH in the game, along with another sub and try to change the line-up.

MST I understand what you are saying but I am saying the rule - when compared to other sports - is not fair. I guess it might just be the difference in baseball and other sports in that the coach - while technically is not on the field - still interacts with plays from the third base box. Other sports cannot step foot onto their playing surfaces.

I guess I am just saying that other sports have a "warning" penalty while baseball - in my opinion does not with the restricting to the dugout. To me that is not fair.

I am really not trying to be a jerk here because you guys don't make the rules. You just enforce them as best you can. I guess I am using you guys as a sounding board instead of talking to the NFHS.

Coach, your perspective has clouded your opinion...Lets see:most sports have the "thats enough,coach" warning......
baseball= warning, bench restriction, ejection.
football= warning, yardage penalty, ejection.
basketball= warning, technical (w/ seat restriction), ejection.
Seems to me that baseball is the ONLY sport that a coaches bad actions doesnt have a penalty that actually affects the game scoring. What?-a baseball coach's penalty is to coach from at most 40 ft farther away then before?-Big deal, too bad.
And you think its unfair vs other sports?- How about your actions giving the other team an automatic run, or an opposing runner moving 2 bases?
I bet a coaches poll would have 99% wanting rules on this to stay as is.......

Why don't you chill out there chief - because if you read some of the posts by the umpires they said they don't really use the restriction to the dugout unless there is only one coach there. They would rather eject than do the restriction.

So based on that it isn't fair.

So a coach can still coach from 40 ft farther away - well what if you are in the 1st base dugout and you now have to put a sophomore or freshman in the third basebox. Would you really want a 15 - 16 year old kid to determine if a runner can score on a basehit or not? It's easy to say well he would make that decision if he was the runner on second but it all changes once he is in the box and not the runner. Also, these are kids that probably are not used to varsity talent level. They will probably make a mistake or get lucky.

Basketball and football the coach can still call the offense and defense.

You are probably right that most coaches won't agree with my proposals but maybe if you read what I put - those were off the top of my head but I am sure others can come up with something else - but I guess it was easier to criticize me.

So I guess it is a big deal and there probably are coaches who do agree with me that restricting to the dugout isn't fair. I don't expect it to change but it is my opinion.