Rice players in dugout

Perhaps the ESPN *****s should keep the cameras out of the dugout - especially when you are runless for 24 innings.

and

Perhaps the same ESPN *****s couldnt stand up to the same level of scrutiny when things werent going so well for them in their jobs.

They would probably sue you for invasion of privacy. LOL

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Would have to agree with IITG...

Perhaps I am old fashioned...

while there is a certain lines of behavior that players should not cross...

I would want my players to care, in this instance they obviously do, and I would contend their behavior was very understandable given the circumstances....

44

Players absolutely do not play for the cameras, if they did they wouldn't perform well so they didn't care nor notice that. Plus, if you were losing constantly and scoreless in probably the most important game(s) of your life, you'd be throwing helmets and kicking stuff also.

I didn't see the TV portions being discussed. While I think it is understandable, I don't think it is what coaches should tolerate.
We go to a lot of Stanford games and I cannot believe "9" would ever create the environment suggesting that conduct is permissable...ever.
To be honest, one of the reasons I am so proud of my son is the fact that he has never, in high school, college and at the professional level thrown a helmet or ] anything to express anger/frustration etc. His view, and he has taught me so much, is sometimes the other guy is better and sometimes in baseball you don't get your job done.
Baseball is like life. I think the higher the stakes, the more you keep keep your calm, win or lose. When you do that, you win, even if you lose.

I'm with infielddad on this one - I dont know this but I find it hard to believe that the behavior suddenly occurred in the CWS. I dont know of one coach who would put up with it from t-ball through HS. ESPN was right in showing it for what it was - Flat Out Wrong!

Most programs wouldn't tolerate it, and ESPN may've overdone the replays, but how classless of the Rice kids-like they weren't aware their every move was on national TV?

Every player will be disgusted with himself at times, and to their credit, they waited till they got to the duggout, but the (1) the ESPN cameras weren't invisible, and (2) fine, kick the dirt, put your glove over your mouth and talk to yourself with blue language, but the helmet slamming and bat kicking was pretty weak.

I've watched my younger son pitch for the past 8 years or so, and only last week learned that sometimes when he puts the glove over his mouth, it's to have a little talk with himself. Sure beats the RICE method...

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Baseball is like life. I think the higher the stakes, the more you keep keep your calm, win or lose. When you do that, you win, even if you lose.

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the helmet slamming and bat kicking was pretty weak.

I watched as the camera focused on a Rice kid using his helmet for a sledge hammer for 20 seconds, and instantly flashed back to my sons 11U team whose coach's son did the same thing after 3/4 of his at bats. It was just as embarrassing then.

Lets not give ESPN a pass at all here. This game can be frustrating and the coaches may have been as frustrated as the players. Those areas should be off limits to cameras but we know that won't happen.
This is the same network that wow's the little leaguer that just threw 50-60% curveballs.

I had to get this off my chest. There is an old saying that pretty much sums up anything you see or hear in the media today.

Consider The Source

It was embarrassing because they focused on it.
Its a big deal because they showed it.
We never consider the source and always take the report as written truth.

Dugouts off limits to cameras? Sorry guys, you want the money that comes with having huge national TV exposure, you gotta deal with what comes with it. Cameras on you all the time come with the big bucks.
I also have a lot of trouble believing that was the first time that happened all year, but given the lengthy scoreless inning streak in the CWS, it's possible.

My son threw a helmet last year after a call he disagreed with. His coach, the father of OSU's pitcher Mike Stutes, immediately benched him.

He has never thrown another helmet.

My point is, a standard of behavior was set. Apparently no such standard has been set by the Rice coaching staff.

I recognize that focusing on the "messenger" happens regularly when it comes to the media. Sometimes deserved, sometimes not.
I grew up watching ABC's Wide World of Sports and their coverage of "the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat." How we handle "defeat" can often say more about us that how we handle victory and I see absolutely nothing to suggest that ESPN should be a focus of this discussion.
I agree with JohnLex. Coverage of NCAA baseball is something we all want and ESPN provides it...for a fee, which the NCAA and the colleges gladly accept. We may not have liked what was seen, but that doesn't make it the "fault" of ESPN.
As Dad04 suggests, that wasn't much different conduct that you can see at many Saturday little league games. Doesn't look good in either situation.

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Am in total agreement with y'all on stuff OUTSIDE the dugout...that also "belongs" to the fans

...but inside? Inside is "my house"...(within obvious ethical boundaries)..

While I do not condone this behavior as a regular course of business, and I would probably not have allowed it....IMO there are times and places when you have to let the warriors be human...

Not only was this the missed chance of a lifetime, the behavior didn't affect other players, coaches, or fans, from what I saw in a single corner of the dugout and was very momentary...


44

quote:

Consider The Source

Ric

Consider what? The kids threw tantrums on video tape like 3-year old little girls that need naps.

Why must I apopligize for someone elses bad behavior in the dugout, whether the coach chokes a pitcher or infantile player behavior?

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While I do not condone this behavior as a regular course of business, and I would probably not have allowed it....IMO there are times and places when you have to let the warriors be human...

My take is similar to ob44's take here.

Look, Rice won 57 games this year and ranked #1 for most of the year. It is possible the Rice coaches never had to address the poor sportsmanship issue until yesterday because they basically won all their games this year.

They may have felt that it was better addressed behind closed doors rather than getting in someone's face for the camera's sake. They also may have felt, as OB44 suggests, that given the passions of the moment, they were going to look the other way this one time. Does that mean they accept that behavior as a matter of course? I doubt it. From all I could tell, the Rice head coach looks like a very hard-nosed guy who runs a tight ship.

Trust me, I do not condone poor sportsmanship, but in this one instance, I can see the other side.

Has anyone else ever done something or said something out of frustration that they normally would not have done or said. I have. I did not feel good about it afterward and I wished I could have taken it back. I couldn't. It's done.

I would expect that this kind of behavior was probably not tolerated during the season form this program and that overall these are a pretty well mannered group of ball players. Given the fact that they have not had to deal with very much defeat this year and especially not in the manner of the last two games. I will say that it is not pretty, but I can't beat a kid up too much for losing it in that situation. As for the coaches, I think they had more on their minds than dealing with the guys in the dugout. Like the second shutout in as many days.

I don't condone the behavior, but I also hate to see what I believe to be a fine group of kids raked over the coals. I'm pretty sure none of them are very proud of it.

I'm with ob44 and clvdad.

While I don't condone it I think it was an exception to the rule in regard to the Rice program. On another note. Using the glass half full mentality those young men who were caught on film, others who will fill that Rice dugout in the future, and many other young players from around the country who saw those clips will know what it looks like to have a tantrum and may think twice in the future.

As I initially posted, the response to the loss is "understandable."
On the other hand, it was in the dugout, not the locker room and the dugout is not "off limits" to the view of fans or the camera.
From 2000-2003, no team had greater heartbreak in Omaha than Stanford. Got there 3 times in 4 years I think and came in 2nd...3 times. I know for a fact that #9 does not condone "tantrums" on the field at any time, by any player, and it showed in each of those NCAA championship losses.
I can't see why it should have been any different last night.

Okay, you guys beleive the actions that happen in the dugout stay there but what about the play in the first game down the first base line. He was ejected from the game but played in the next. My point is allot of people are acting like this is a saturday league. This is the national championship. Tempers are going to fly. No-one started a thread about the knockdown. That was in the same perspective for bad sportsmanship as this incident. Rice has an outstanding program and I'm sure the coach let him know about it. The other suprise was that the pitcher for Oregon threw 115 pitches on Monday and another 100 last night. Allot of pitches with short rest but he looked better last night than on Mon.

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My point is allot of people are acting like this is a saturday league. This is the national championship. Tempers are going to fly

Ruste, it was a baseball game.
Are you saying that because it was part of the NCAA Championships, that "tempers are going to fly" is okay and something to be accepted, condoned, perhaps even anticipated?
Would it also be okay in Williamsport?

Agree with most here. The tantrums are embarassing - especially for the player.

But I am no fan of the media.

Instead of looking for all the good in the game - they go out of their way to find the bad.

IMO.

My coach doesn't tolerate it at all. But its very understanding, and my coach does uderstand. Once we were getting killed and one guy was going on a pretty long hitless streak and after he struck out again, he got to the dugout and threw his helmet and the fence. After the game the coach said he usually hates it, but understood the frustration...

Infeilddad, It's hard to put yourself in the same position on what occured. My point is that if this was in the midle of the season it might not have happened. This was the deciding game to get to the show. Tempers are going to fly because of the circumstances. Different people react different ways. This player showed emotion. Right or wrong he had emotion. It just seems that everybody has to be political when it comes to emotions and basically you have to sit in a corner and cover your face or mouth with a towel to be able to yell what you are feeling. Is all this right or wrong? It's not my decision but I'm sure all will have there own opinion.

I like Rice and I always have. An absolutely first-rate academic institution with a consistently top-flight baseball program. But I’ve been watching college baseball for years, and the CWS in particular, and I’ve never seen a collective tantrum such as the Rice players put on. It was newsworthy because it was unique. It is just plain silly to expect ESPN or any other network to ignore such conduct. The dugouts have been part of baseball broadcasts for as long as I can remember – I’ve seen more coaches pick their nose than I care to remember. I agree with another poster: If just one future player was watching and didn’t like what he saw, then some good may come of it after all.

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Would it also be okay in Williamsport?

Great analogy. Its not OK at Williamsport, Omaha, Fenway Park or anywhere else. It happened and I'm sure it was handled in private.

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Ruste posted:This was the deciding game to get to the show. Tempers are going to fly because of the circumstances. Different people react different ways. This player showed emotion. Right or wrong he had emotion.

Like my sons coach says "Act like you've been there before."

If I am in the other dugout watching you melt down, I own you, lock stock & barrel.

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If I am in the other dugout watching you melt down, I own you, lock stock & barrel.

Bingo. Melt down on the mound, in the dugout, whereever, and the opposition is going to take advantage of it. All competitive athletes get frustrated at their performance sometimes, I would be worried about one that didn't. BUT, there is a time and place for dealing with the frustration. On the field or in the dugout isn't it.

"This was the deciding game to get to the show. Tempers are going to fly because of the circumstances. Different people react different ways. This player showed emotion. Right or wrong he had emotion. It just seems that everybody has to be political when it comes to emotions and basically you have to sit in a corner and cover your face or mouth with a towel to be able to yell what you are feeling. Is all this right or wrong?"

Ruste,
I mentioned earlier how much I have learned from my son about baseball. When he was a senior in high school, he came up in a key situation in the area championships. Seemed like the most important thing in the world...at the time. Grounded out and his team went on to lose.
Four years later, he came up in a key situation in the college conference championships, with an NCAA berth on the line. Seemed like the most important thing in the world...at the time. Hit a 3 run homerun that was electric and his team won.
I will never, ever forget watching him run those bases, enter the dugout and how he handled himself. He handled the "success" no differently than the "failure" 4 years before. In his world, each situation was just as important as the game played last night.
Stanford lost the championship game 3 times in 4 years and went about things much differently.
I agree we are all different, but the situations confronted aren't all that different.
If the impression is created or accepted that "tempers are going to fly because of the circumstances," then they likely will. What I am proposing is that view isn't what should be created or accepted.

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What I am proposing is that view isn't what should be created or accepted.

I absolutely agree. One problem created by showing this type of juvenile behavior on TV is that young kids see it and in many cases will emulate it at some time in the future. It's too bad the networks show that nonesense. But you can't really blame the media, young adults should know how to handle themselves better than that.

I don't care if it's a scrimmage game or the championship game, I won't tolerate that type of behavior from my players and they know it. We talk about it, they know the rules, and after one player gets benched for throwing a temper tantrum it never happens again.

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Its not OK at Williamsport, Omaha, Fenway Park or anywhere else.

But the funny thing is this happens nightly in MLB dugouts, a bat/helmet thrown in the rack, an expicit word lipped to an ump, and we blow it off as emotion. College baseball on TV is new turf and we saw an emotional side. Ask any college player if teammates have not gone over the line in some games and I think you will find it happens more than you think except now with the cameras you are in the dugout. This is a very emotional time in a college career and being a competitive athlete sometimes reactions are instictive rather than thought out. It's not the right thing to do but I'm sure that everyone of us has personal experiences (in the car, work, garage, kitchen) weekly that we would not want on tape. I hope that this is not a reflection on the Rice program as that would not be fair. I'm sure it will be taken care of.

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But the funny thing is this happens nightly in MLB dugouts, a bat/helmet thrown in the rack, an expicit word lipped to an ump, and we blow it off as emotion.

I don't like it though. They get by with it because of who they are and how much they make. It's a players league like the NBA and has been since not long after Free Agency was adopted.

Okay, so no-one on here has ever yelled at the umpire about a close call? Never yelled at a player to keep his eye on the ball? The player in qeustion two at bats eirlier took one off of his foot and was called out. I know none of you would say anything and not show no emotion. This all is a double edge sword but you will not be able to have it all one way. All you can hope for is that the coaches teach the kids right and let them know how to act. Each player is his own enemy and only he can judge what is wrong or right.

Those things you describe happen all the time. That is why there are managers/coaches, IMO. Mangers/coaches get paid to address those issues and to manage the emotions they might create in the players.
I completely agree those games in Omaha are filled with intensity and with emotion. The coaching staffs knew that going into Omaha. From my view, managers/coaches prepare their players for every possibility, including losing. That gets done every single day the players are on the field, not when they head to Omaha.
Every single player has a responsibility to "manage" the level of their emotions so that it focuses on the game. I have a hard time acknowledging the post game emotional eruption is "justified."
What is the dividing line? Does it seem okay to assure everyone the post game eruption with the displays shown by ESPN are okay because emotions are so high; yet when those emotions transfer from battering equipment in the dugout to flinging the bat at the umpire(Delmon Young) it isn't okay. By their very nature, emotions make us vulnerable to impulse behavior. I, for one, do not feel confident the emotionally tinged impulse between battering equipment and flinging the bat at the umpire is a dividing line we can comfortably know will be respected. To me, what Delmon Young did was frightening. 50 games...a joke. If a player is so angry/emotional they batter equipment to extent seen on ESPN, I greatly fear those emotions/anger can just as easily move the next step, since we have all now seen the unthinkable happen on TV.

infielddad,

Good post. Good behavior is discussed on and off the field all of the time, not just when you get to Omaha. Everyone knows there are cameras in the dugout, during regular games, playoffs, etc. Ones behavior is a reflection of your school and your coaching staff. There is no justification, on or off camera.

After our loss, the boys went out to collect the dirt from the infield. They were all feeling quite miserable, but managed to show dignity. Gathering the dirt was symbolic that they accepted their loss, and appreciated the opportunity to come to Omaha.

Edit:
By the way, kicking the bat is not unusual to see when a team is not hitting, superstition is to kick some life back into the bat.

What we may have seen may not appear to be as implied.

All it shows is that the Rice team was not ready to play at the level of concentration it takes to compete at the CWS.

Poor sportsmanship and lack of class.

Would'nt you rather have him take out his frustration's on a couple of helmet's and a few Bat's.
Then blow-up on one of his teamates.
It was Probably the Game of there Live's so Far in Life.

Give em a Break.

RR, I was at the GM.
It was Electric,
Game could of went either way.
Everyteam played there Heart out For all to see.

Frankly, too much is being made over not much.

The preferable thing would be to blow off the steam in the dugoout tunnel, though many places don't have them at this level.

That it was shown on TV? Too bad, get over it. The NCAA wants it to be the big event, sells it to the highest bidder. It comes with the territory.

And for the record, I am in the media, the print media. Have been for 30 years.

In college, giving it back to the umpire is a huge no-no. I don't agree with this and never have. I think players should stand up for themselves, not to the extent they do in to pro ranks, but to some extent. Part of the transition from youth to adult is learning how to, reasonably, make your case. College umpires get paid a decent sum; they can handle the grief.

For the record, I've done a lot of youth baseball umpiring. This is very different.

I've never been as concerned about "sore losers" as I have been about "bad winners." As far as I'm concerned, as long as there is an honest congratulations, a right-minded handshake of goodwill at the completion of the contest, everything else is just water under the bridge.

And, for the record, I've stood behind plenty of hockey benches, where the language usually is far more harsh than anything uttered in a dugout.

In MLB, I have seen a ton of games where the bats were busted and helmets thrown around. I forget wasn't it Bo that broke a bat over the top of his helmet? Another guy just snapped one over his knee. This was not done in the dugout but on way back to the dug out. ESPN just made a big deal about how strong they were.

The player that people refer to was Savory. Let me tell you folks this is a class act far and away. This guy will be the future MLB player that will signing all of the autographs after a losing game. He doesn't know me from a can of beans but each time I have ran into him nothing but a class act. He is the type that discusses the game or gives a "Yes Sir" or a genuine "Thank you" after a compliment. Just an awesome kid who really is an inspiration to his teammates.

Savory had a terrible call where I had seen many a player from high school to the pros would have been tossed because of being in the umpires face. He calmly spoke to the umpire not wanting to hurt his team by getting thrown out. ESPN went to a commercial break then showed the helmet bashing. Like others have said it comes with the coverage. He shows his frustration one time now everyone condones it. Some times we live in a sad world.

Funny, how that shove at first base line isnt talked about wildly and how ESPN panned on the OSU kids who were cussing at him for playing too rough. No knock on the OSU kids what a great team of players. I think both teams there looked a little silly.