rolled bats

.

Rolled bats? I don't know about them...all we have ever rolled are these.

Anyone? Rolled? Bats?



.

It is not legal

Rolling is illegal tampering with a bat. The companies who roll bats have a disclaimer rolling bats is for hitting exhibitions only. Rolling makes the bat exceed the BESR rating. Last year my son played third in high school and travel. Had he got cranked and injured by a shot I would have had the bat conviscated. If I found it to be rolled I would have sued the player, his family and the opposing team. You can't sue the bat rolling company. They say rolling is for hitting exhibitions only.

Rolled bats are illegal.....bats that have been altered are illegal under fed rules 1-3-5 and 7-4-1a.

and if you need any more proof, I have copied a disclaimer from a bat rolling site and posted it below....if after it is read, if anyone feels that using this bat in any baseball competition is ok, then they mistaken....the bat rolling/shaving companies know they are dangerous and illegal....

I understand that some rolled bats may show creases or rolling marks and some may not as a result of the process... If I can determine that a bat was rolled and used, not only will the batter be called out as per rule for using an illegal bat, I will also eject that player under the unsportsmanship conduct rule....

Please see below....I have deleted the companies name...and replaced it with "the company"

I, the undersigned, assume all responsibilities and risks for any alterations made to the bat(s)
listed above (the "Bat(s)") by the company. I
understand that the company only shaves bats for use in exhibitions, home run derbies
and outlaw leagues where it is legal to use them.

I agree not to use the Bat(s) in sanctioned
league play, tournaments or anywhere it is illegal. I understand that the Bat(s) will come with a
sticker identifying them as shaved and agree not to remove the sticker.

I will indemnify, defend and hold the company and its members, managers, agents, employees and assigns harmless from all claims, demands, or liability arising out of or encountered in connection with my or anyone else's use of the Bat(s).

Such indemnity shall extend to claims, demands, or liability for injuries occurring out of or in connection with the use of the Bat(s) regardless of whether the Bat(s) were used in a legal or illegal manner.

The company is not responsible or liable for slight alterations that may have to be made to the Bat(s) in order to accomplish the shaving process. I acknowledge and understand that the balance of the Bat(s) may feel different due to the material removed and any endloading added
back in.

The company does not warrant the shaved Bat(s) from cracking or denting. I release the company and it members, managers, agents, employees and assigns from any and all claims and liability arising out of or resulting from the alterations made to the Bat(s) by the company.

I understand that it is recommended that the use of the Bat(s) during batting practice should be
minimal. I understand that the Bat(s) are not to be used in under 60 degree weather and that bat
warmers should be used any time the temperature is below 70 degrees.

If any legal action or other proceeding is brought for the interpretation or enforcement of this Bat
Shaving Order Form and Release, or because of an alleged dispute, breach, default, or
misrepresentation in connection with any of the provisions of this Bat Shaving Order Form and
Release, then the successful or prevailing party or parties will be entitled to recover their
reasonable attorney fees and other litigation costs (including the cost of experts) incurred in that
action or proceeding, in addition to any other relief to which they may be entitled.

This Bat Shaving Order Form and Release will be enforced and interpreted according the laws of
the State of Arizona.

Signature: _____________________________ Date:_________________
Print Name:_____________________________

I posted mmy opinion about rolled bats in the hitting forum a few weeks ago.


If bats are sold at one rating, yet become more lively when they are actually used, what's the point of the BESR? Why don't they just save everyone break-in time and roll the bats at the factory? If they rolled 'em, before they sold 'em, they bats would have an accurate BESR rating.

I don't see the ethical debate as rolling vs not rolling. Why not roll it? I see the debate as skirting the ratings by buying/selling bats which everyone knows will have a faster BESR after they're used for a while.

.

"This Bat Shaving Order Form"

.

GET THEM WHILE SUPPLIES LAST!

.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
Rolling is illegal tampering with a bat. The companies who roll bats have a disclaimer rolling bats is for hitting exhibitions only. Rolling makes the bat exceed the BESR rating. Last year my son played third in high school and travel. Had he got cranked and injured by a shot I would have had the bat conviscated. If I found it to be rolled I would have sued the player, his family and the opposing team. You can't sue the bat rolling company. They say rolling is for hitting exhibitions only.

Can you look at a bat and determine if it has been rolled? And who would do the confiscating?

quote:

If bats are sold at one rating, yet become more lively when they are actually used, what's the point of the BESR?

The composite bats that do this are being banned from the game. I know the president of one bat company. They don't make these composites. He said they're an opportunity for a huge legal problem.

quote:

Originally posted by dswann:

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
Rolling is illegal tampering with a bat. The companies who roll bats have a disclaimer rolling bats is for hitting exhibitions only. Rolling makes the bat exceed the BESR rating. Last year my son played third in high school and travel. Had he got cranked and injured by a shot I would have had the bat conviscated. If I found it to be rolled I would have sued the player, his family and the opposing team. You can't sue the bat rolling company. They say rolling is for hitting exhibitions only.

Can you look at a bat and determine if it has been rolled? And who would do the confiscating?

You can't tell if a bats been rolled. But if a ball came off a bat at a speed I've never seen before I'd be suspicious. I would request the coach have the bat confiscated. If it didn't happen I'd get a warrant. In this day and age of issues with metal bats it wouldn't be hard to get a warrant. This year my son will be playing short in high school and center on travel so it becomes less of a personal concern.

quote:

Originally posted by piaa_ump:
Rolled bats are illegal.....bats that have been altered are illegal under fed rules 1-3-5 and 7-4-1a.

and if you need any more proof, I have copied a disclaimer from a bat rolling site and posted it below....

This Bat Shaving Order Form and Release will be enforced and interpreted according the laws of
the State of Arizona.

Signature: _____________________________ Date:_________________
Print Name:_____________________________

Just to be clear, the form you posted concerns shaving, not rolling. Two totally separate issues. Shaving a bat means material has physically been removed from the inside. That is most decidedly altering a bat. Technically, rolling a bat simply accelerates the break-in process and is part of the natural design of the bat.

That being said, the rule mentioned above is why the NCAA decided to ban composite bats all together. Rolled or broken in "naturally", composite bats get "hotter" than the BESR rating they leave the factory with and that is the problem. There is no way you can distinguish a rolled bat from a "naturally" broken in bat, nor could you prove a bat had been rolled vs broken in by hitting. Eliminate the bat and that issue goes away, which is exactly what the NCAA did.

The ethical issue is totally different. I think there are a lot of people who will justify rolling bats due to the issues I stated above but at the end of the day, they are teaching their kid that cheating is OK and it isn't. Sooner or later, they are going to have to learn to hit with a bat that evens the playing field and the sooner they learn, the better off they will be. Ever watch a kid launching missiles off a composite bat struggle to hit a ball 250 feet with wood? I wish HS would follow suite TODAY and ban the composite bats as well.

It is my understand that in 2012, the BESR rating will no longer be used and all bats (including HS) will need to conform to the new rating, which again, as I understand it, is going to make the new bats hit just like wood.

My take on the issue is the rule is very clear and composite bats broke that rule in spirit from the get go, whether rolled or not.

Go back to swinging wood and you can roll 'em all you want.

.

I couldn't agree more snowman!




.

quote:

Originally posted by snowman:
Go back to swinging wood and you can roll 'em all you want.

I'm with you on that. The argument there is the expense of wood at the amature level. My son broke 5 bats this fall alone. Yes, he understands where to hit the ball on the bat but I don't have access to the quality wood the pros get and my son hates bamboo. 20+ games with wood at the High School level could potentially get pretty expensive.

I think the new bat rating will give the best of both worlds. The ball will come off the bat like it does with wood but the bat will last and the sweet spot should be a little more forgiving than wood.

I am just glad my son doesn't pitch! I could see pitchers wearing goalie facesmasks soon if things weren't slated to change in 2012.

It would be nice to hear from some of the bat reps who post here.

quote:

Originally posted by snowman:
Go back to swinging wood and you can roll 'em all you want.

Jr hasn't used anything but wood since last season ended (legion). He has been to four 'coach's clinics' this winter. He's only seen one other kid use a wood bat. (believe me, they all look at each others' bat) My son wants to leave no doubt in anyone's mind whether it's him or the bat- lol, good or bad.

Composite bats have been declared illegal by the NCAA and HS's will follow suit shortly...as they usually do.

As to the question of,

quote:

I don't see the ethical debate as rolling vs not rolling. Why not roll it?

Because it's illegal and cheating...

Character is defined by what you do when there is no one watching.

Well, if it gets hotter, exceeds the BESR, after being broken in, what's the difference? You're still using it. (and everyone's watching )

quote:

Can you look at a bat and determine if it has been rolled? And who would do the confiscating?

There is no way to tell if a bat has been rolled or viced. Vicing is basically the same thing as rolling, but instead of putting it in a rolling machine, you put it in a vice, squeeze, turn 1/8 turn, squeeze again, etc. All this does is simulate allot of hits, so if you don't have time to break your bat in by hitting, rolling is an option.

Ban all composite bats, that is the only way to stop this. Rolling metal bats doesn't do anything.

quote:

I could see pitchers wearing goalie facesmasks soon if things weren't slated to change in 2012.

This has already happened in softball. Some pitchers and corner infieders are wearing facemasks.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
Last year my son played third in high school and travel. Had he got cranked and injured by a shot I would have had the bat confiscated. If I found it to be rolled I would have sued the player, his family and the opposing team.

RJM,
My son also plays third, and crowds the batters. So the same thoughts have crossed my mind. But realistically, if he gets nailed bad, I won't be watching to see what happens to the bat, which will disappear into a bat bag.

Composite bats are banned in college and in all the mens slo-pitch softball leagues in my county. Why are we still using them in high school baseball?

Didn't metal bats hit the ball good enough? Banning composites from HS ball can't happen soon enough for me.

quote:

Originally posted by AntzDad:
Well, if it gets hotter, exceeds the BESR, after being broken in, what's the difference? You're still using it. (and everyone's watching )

The difference is your actions.

By your definition, there would be no difference between shooting a player in the head so your son could play his position, and winning the position. Both ways the result is the same, your son plays, and if no one saw you shoot the kid in the head, what's the difference?

What's the difference whether a bat is broken in by rolling or batting practice? It's still a hot bat- it exceeds the BESR. Is it OK, to you, for players to use hot bats? Why do kids spend weeks or months 'breaking them in' before they use them in games?

Not sure what shooting anyone in the head has to do with it.

This bat thing is just plain crazy. The cost, the regulations, people getting around the regs, people chasing the people getting around the regs, buying high tech protections (masks) to protect against high tech bats and on and on and...

There is an incredibly simple solution to all of this bat controversy. Use composite wood bats. They are less expensive than "high tech" bats, do not provide an advantage to the hitter with exception of not breaking when sawed off, and boy do they last. I just checked on line and the price was $200 which if prorated over several (3-4 or more?) years is very affordable. The website I looked at stated this particular bat was approved for minor league use by MLB. Didn't know that.

What I do know is that my son who played some pro ball uses composite wood bats in his men's rec league and just picked up a new one after many years of use by both him and his teammates.

Disclaimer: I am not nor have I ever been associated with or a representative for any of the bat manufacturers I didn't mention.

Lat's just get back to baseball.

quote:

Originally posted by 1baseballdad:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by piaa_ump:
Just to be clear, the form you posted concerns shaving, not rolling. Two totally separate issues. Shaving a bat means material has physically been removed from the inside. That is most decidedly altering a bat. Technically, rolling a bat simply accelerates the break-in process and is part of the natural design of the bat.

You are correct....the company in question does offer both services and also sells bats that have been shaved and rolled.....

quote:

Originally posted by AntzDad:
What's the difference whether a bat is broken in by rolling or batting practice? It's still a hot bat- it exceeds the BESR. Is it OK, to you, for players to use hot bats? Why do kids spend weeks or months 'breaking them in' before they use them in games?

Not sure what shooting anyone in the head has to do with it.

Ok, here's the difference, maybe you can understand this...

Son, did you cheat to make your bat perform better? (Remember this is an ethics argument you brought up, and that rolling a bat is defined as cheating)

Son, is it ok to cheat to achieve the results you desire? (that sticky ethics thing again)

In truth, these are not ethics issues, they are black and white right and wrong issues. Cheating is wrong. You can't claim a degree of cheating, it is a yes or no question. Ethics deal with degrees of gray area. In this case, there is none.

quote:

Originally posted by CPLZ:

In truth, these are not ethics issues, they are black and white right and wrong issues. Cheating is wrong. You can't claim a degree of cheating, it is a yes or no question. Ethics deal with degrees of gray area. In this case, there is none.

I don't care if you roll it in a machine or hit 2000 pitches. To me, using a bat that YOU KNOW will become hotter than it's BESR rating, after break-in, is cheating.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AntzDad:
What's the difference whether a bat is broken in by rolling or batting practice? It's still a hot bat- it exceeds the BESR. Is it OK, to you, for players to use hot bats? Why do kids spend weeks or months 'breaking them in' before they use them in games?

QUOTE]

You actually make a great point and to me, that is the problem with these bats to begin with. It isn't that hard to justify rolling a bat when similar results are achieved by "normal" break-in. At the end of the day, both methods break the spirit of the rule mentioned earlier. Rolling the bat basically perfects the "break in" to a point that you could never possibly achieve with normal hitting.

Good article about it here as well. I hope it is OK to post a link to it?
http://www.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=967868

So to me, it really boils down to are you cheating a little or are you cheating a lot. You are knowingly using a product that no longer conforms to the rules. Is it your fault if you do nothing but hit with the bat? To me, it doesn't matter. It would be like trying to use a bat with a BESR rating when the new ratings come out in 2012. Banning the bats all together is the only way to end the argument.


This is from a site that does bat rolling. By their very admission, it clearly violates the spirit of the rule mentioned earlier.

__________

The Effects

Now that you know what bat rolling is you should understand how this affects the bat and your game. A rolled bat has no dead spots. This will allow the entire barrel to flex as one. When there are dead spots on the barrel there will be a restriction in the amount of flexing that can take place even when a ball is hit in an area that is broken in. The dead spots can have a negative effect on the entire barrel of the bat. You will get more pop, distance and speed on the ball when you hit it with a rolled bat. It also increases the size of the sweet spot, as well as making the sweet spot more consistent.

People are going around in circles on this and getting nowhere.

Go to composite wood bats and problem solved.

Thanks guys , that was my belief as to the legality of this issue . == edited by moderator - MN-Mom ==
Gotta love technology I guess.

quote:

Originally posted by snowman:
People are going around in circles on this and getting nowhere.

Go to composite wood bats and problem solved.

although you may be right, it just isn't going to happen........

as a purist, I would welcome the return to wood bats....as a realist, the economics make it unlikely......metal bats are big business and so is the endorsements.....

The semipro league my son plays in now is all wood bats...and its great baseball....

If what you say is true about the big business of metal bats and in essence its ability to control the thinking and decision making of those entrusted with the well being of our kids then that is a pretty sad commentary.

Wood composite bats would still be big business.

quote:

Originally posted by Tom Dorminy:
What does anyone know about bat rolling ? Have heard it essentially breaks in a new bat but does it create more carry and distance ? Example ==Edited by moderator - MN-Mom== Kind of like steroids for your bat ! Lol . Is it legal ?

What do you think will happen if you tell dad his son his breaking the rules and upping the odds on injuring opposing pitchers and corner infielders?

Woody, this is a rolled bat

Oh boy, iheartbb- you have learned from the best! I thought the Woodman had posted this picture. Great job.

quote:

Originally posted by Tom Dorminy:
What does anyone know about bat rolling ?

Basically bat rolling is taking a composite bat and putting it in a specifically designed vice with rollers on it. Then compressing the bat evenly breaking down the composite fibers and giving the bat a greater trampoline effect.

quote:

Have heard it essentially breaks in a new bat but does it create more carry and distance ?

Yes it will create more carry and distance but not necessarily more than a natural break in would. The big difference is that with a natural break in (unless you are extremely diligent) it will not be even. Therefor you will have hot spots and cold spots on the bat but with rolling the entire barrel will be hot.

As for the legality well I would call that a very gray area. Is it illegal if you alter a bat? Well yes. The problem with composites though is that hitting a ball alters the bat. So by a very strict definition of the rule once a composite bat hits just one ball it should be declared illegal.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Originally posted by Tom Dorminy:
What does anyone know about bat rolling ? Have heard it essentially breaks in a new bat but does it create more carry and distance ? Example, ==Edited by moderator - MN-Mom== Kind of like steroids for your bat ! Lol . Is it legal ?

What do you think will happen if you tell dad his son his breaking the rules and upping the odds on injuring opposing pitchers and corner infielders?

Isn't having a kid lift weights also upping the odds or having him take batting lessons to gain more power?

Why don't we just say "that all depends on your definition of the word is"

anybody that runs a bat thru a roller knows he is a flipping cheater. Anybody that takes a bat to the cages and hits with it 7 days a week is practicing the skills of the game.

quote:

Originally posted by coach scotty:

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Originally posted by Tom Dorminy:
What does anyone know about bat rolling ? Have heard it essentially breaks in a new bat but does it create more carry and distance ? == edited by moderator - MN-Mom == Kind of like steroids for your bat ! Lol . Is it legal ?

What do you think will happen if you tell dad his son his breaking the rules and upping the odds on injuring opposing pitchers and corner infielders?

Isn't having a kid lift weights also upping the odds or having him take batting lessons to gain more power?

Lifting weights and batting lessons aren't illegal.

If it were up to me they'd all be Louisville Slugger ash bats. Got a problem with the expense of broken bats? Wrap 'em up with tape.. remember?

quote:

Originally posted by trojan-skipper:
Why don't we just say "that all depends on your definition of the word is"

anybody that runs a bat thru a roller knows he is a flipping cheater. Anybody that takes a bat to the cages and hits with it 7 days a week is practicing the skills of the game.

What if you practice your sing mechanics by hitting the bat against a telephone pole. Is that cheating or training?

Just kidding. However I did know a guy back in my slow pitch days that could "break in" a composite with a telephone pole. They seemed to crack sooner than the rolled ones but seemed hotter also.