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Beat the agony of it to death, but something I havent' read on any other threads anywhere..

From an Umpire learning stand point, only please.. did anybody else think Joyce's positioning was to close to the play?

I had the out on the first full speed replay, from the 1/2 from home and 1st camera angle..kicked me right in the gut, knowing "their gonna show it", ahhh they did..Sorry bout that.

Seemed like he had to see the catch, due to the throw being kind of a "change up" throwing everybodies timing off a bit; seemed it caused him to train his eye on the catch, then have to find the bag? Long enough to miss it, I believe him when he say's "I thought he beat it".

I only looked at it a couple times when they preempted from the M's game, (kinda like a Theisman thing, I didn't wanna see anymore)

Thoughts on was he too close to get the whole picture?
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quote:
Originally posted by jjk:

Thoughts on was he too close to get the whole picture?


My thoughts are the same as Bruce Weber's


New York Times, June 4, 2010

The Perfect Asterisk
By BRUCE WEBER

The egregious call at first base by the umpire Jim Joyce that cost a Detroit Tigers pitcher, Armando Galarraga, the chance to be only the 21st major-league pitcher to have tossed a perfect game has unleashed consternation on the land. History is denied! Incompetence reigns! Something must be done! Expand instant replay!

Nah.

First of all, history wasn’t denied; it was made. Galarraga’s magnificent performance last Wednesday will always be the perfect game with the asterisk, the one every commentator mentions whenever perfect games are mentioned, the tainted perfect game and thus the most famous perfect game of all time.

Second, Joyce’s bungle — and oh, man, it was a beaut! — has hardly reigned. A sturdy baseball citizen who has served in the big leagues with distinction (which for umpires is to say without) since 1989, he was reduced to tears by the fact of his ill-timed mistake and its being trumpeted on front pages and television broadcasts around the world. You think that’s not being held accountable?

And something must be done? Why? Umpires have been ingrained in major-league baseball since the inception of the National League in 1876, somewhere approaching 200,000 games ago, and it’s likely that the umps have botched a call or two in every one of them since then. Somehow this has not eroded the fan base or undermined the integrity of the competition, which is something that the players and the owners have periodically done.

That reality, in fact, should tell us something about the nature of baseball, which is the least programmatic, the least technological of games. It doesn’t even have a clock. The fields have widely varying shapes and sizes, and the primary battleground between offense and defense — i.e., the strike zone — is a box of air with dimensions that have proven impossible to specify. There is a lot less science in baseball, a lot more art, than in any other sport you can name. (Golf and s****r nuts, just pipe down.) It’s an irony that only in baseball do there exist perfect games.

This is the main reason that so many baseball fans are so gaga over statistics, because the game’s ambiguities create a hunger for measurement, for exactitude where it doesn’t exist, and it’s the main reason that baseball is the most written about, most discussed, most intellectually parsed game there is.

It’s also the main reason that instant replay feels more like an intrusion in baseball than it does in tennis or football or basketball or hockey, each of which has adopted some form of video review to re-evaluate some officials’ calls. But the prime responsibilities of officials in those other sports have always been to recognize infractions and assign blame, and umpires don’t do that. And it’s worth noting that those responsibilities — calling penalties, faults and fouls — are largely unaffected by instant-replay rules.

The role of umpires in baseball is much more integral. They aren’t observers passing judgment on the legality of given actions so much as filters through which the action passes; nothing can happen — a strike, an out, a run scored — without their imprimatur. They have no prime responsibilities, just the responsibility to see and acknowledge everything, which is why the technological usurping of any one of them feels especially sullying.

Besides, instant-replay review isn’t about improving umpiring or improving baseball; it’s about improving television, which more and more controls how the game is administered both on the field and off. The implementation of instant replay last year to assist on tricky home run calls was welcomed by many umpires, and I don’t suppose it has ruined anything. But it tastes funny, and it feels like the first sign of a heartbreak, the first loose thread on a brand-new sweater that is waiting for the inevitable tug.

I know the argument: The world has evolved, technology has evolved, and baseball has evolved. As long as we can get it right, why not get it right? Well, for one thing, we’d never have had the part shocking, part anguishing, part cosmically comic final moments of the imperfect perfect game last week; nor the very poignant aftermath as the participants confronted the consequences and one another; nor the eruption of passion and debate among millions of baseball fans.

Is our pursuit of finality, the properly placed decimal point, the world record sans asterisk, ultimate victory even in the fundamentally inconsequential arena of sport, worth trading in all of that? (While I’m making this point, why do we need a Bowl Championship Series? Isn’t it more fun to argue over who’s No. 1?)

Insist, if you must, that the umpires are a problem. But the problem is so much more interesting than the solution.
quote:
Originally posted by jjk:
Thoughts on was he too close to get the whole picture?


Initally, I thought he may have benefited from a more angled view in fair territory, but after seeing it 10K times.......I think with the first baseman fielding the ball, he felt his position was best as is.....

I dont think he was too close.........Hopefully JIMMY will chime in as he has the most Pro experience.......My 4 man is limited to playoffs and tourneys.
Heaven forbid the Union of Brothers give up any authority in order to "get it right" Please, how could allowing one appeal to replay for each team really be a bad thing? Many changes in the game have taken place without the sky falling... Doesn't really matter where he was on the field of play, he choked. If the official scorer made a mistake do we need to live with that as well? All this blather regarding the wonderful discourse this event has caused looks a lot like something a politician's speachwriter may craft.
quote:
Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
Doesn't really matter where he was on the field of play, he choked.


Yes, It matters...........because an umpire, JJK, asked in the OP from an Umpire learning stand point, only please.. did anybody else think Joyce's positioning was to close to the play?

I chose to answer it as above...Dash offered a times article........all useful and interesting to us umpires....

your contribution is to bring your ideas of umpires being against replay...so unless your hiding an extensive umpiring resume from us, please take your umpire bashing out of our thread.... this thread was directed by an umpire to umpires specifically and respectfully......

There are plenty of threads here in the other HSBBW forums where you can do it to your hearts content.........

I only ask this respectfully as we have acquired a talented and experienced group of umpires who come here willingly to answer questions about rules, mechanics and situations that the users of this site may have.

I think we provide an exceptional service to parents, players and coaches that come to this site..... Since you dont know the extensive resumes of some of our regular posters, you might be surprised to know that we have hundreds of years experience between us.....we are inclusive of the Pro ranks, College, HS and scores of youth organizations.....we are Certified Umpire trainers, officers and rules interpreters.... and we all come here for free with no ulterior motives.....

I believe I am one of the few who even had a son in the process and he graduated ater 4 years as an NCAA baseball player/coach last year...yet I/we still return year after year to assist the posters in this site....

Many times when a poster comes into the "ask the umpire" forum with a situation involving an umpires disputed call we are the first to state that the umpire in the situation was wrong... I dont believe that we hide behind the "blue wall".... or your Union of Brothers comment....

When I am on the field and I get grief from the stands or dugout, oftentimes I am reminded that I am getting paid to make the hard call...And to a degree, take the gruff when I am wrong or when the fans dont agree with me....I dont believe the unpaid volunteer umpires in this forum should have to take it....

To that end, as one of the moderators, I have in the past been very liberal in allowing threads to continue on despite some contentious posts.....MS Taylor and I have always been against over moderation....

Yet, in the future, I will be moderating ANY post that I feel demeans the volunteer umpires on this site.

There are plenty of threads where you may do this without coming into this forum.....

If any one has a problem with that, please PM me or better yet, PM Julie (MnMom) so that she may relieve me of my duties......
Last edited by piaa_ump
quote:
Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
Heaven forbid the Union of Brothers give up any authority in order to "get it right" Please, how could allowing one appeal to replay for each team really be a bad thing? Many changes in the game have taken place without the sky falling... Doesn't really matter where he was on the field of play, he choked. If the official scorer made a mistake do we need to live with that as well? All this blather regarding the wonderful discourse this event has caused looks a lot like something a politician's speachwriter may craft.


This is absurd blather. Also, the correct term is "get it correct" which they did. They correctly did the mechanics on the play. And, they correctly left the play as it was called.

The "get it right" **** (Just to clarify, I am not using profanity but I do like the implication of it since my word has been replaced by ****) is media rhetoric which means absolutely nothing. They got it "correct" based on using correct mechanics. He correctly called it from his viewpoint.
Last edited by Mr Umpire
His mechanics were fine, but the weird throw and it's timing may have caused him to miss it. Now, as soon as he watched the replay after the game then he knew he missed it. Is this the only call ever missed in the history of baseball, hardly. The only reason there is so said about it is the circumstances. The problem is he is paid to may the call for that play not consider where it is in the game, possible reprecussions or anything else.
I am 100% agreement with Stan's post about the umpiring bashing. That is not what this thread is about.
I've waited until I've had the chance to speak with a couple of MLB umpires and a few proschool instructors and had the chance to review the play a few times before deciding what I really think about Joyce's call.

Most veteran umpire in the MLB, when making a call at first after an infield batted ball, set up to see the foot touch the bag and hear the ball hit the glove. This is perfect with a throw from F5 or F6. It is not as good with a throw to the covering play as happened in this play.

With this type of throw and this level of noise from the fans, umpires know they have to "see" everything. Joyce did not have the optimal angle to see this play under these conditions. Mistake one.

If we believe the first part of Jim's explantaton, he violated THE cardinal rule of calling this play, he anticipated not the play but the RESULT. He has said he felt that the runner was going to beat the throw well before the play. Horrible and mistake 2.

Knowing that he needed to see the entire play, Joyce should have (and could have) gotten into position early enought to come hands on knees set and focus...he did not, mistake 3.

Once making the call and experieincing the reaction and realizing that up to this point a perfect game was on the line, Joyce could have asked his crew chief, Cousins, to gather the crew and discuss the play. Even though everyone had their own role to play, there was good chance one of the other umpires could have provided additional information for Joyce to consider. This wasn't done. Mistake 4.

After viewing the repaly frame by frame, and playing devils advocate, a case could have been argued that the ball was not in secure possession at the time the runner touched the bag. I am not saying this was definitely the case, but in real time, an argument could have been presented. But, and this is to some MLB umpires the biggest sin of the play, Joyce didn't even see that possibility and made the wrong call for all the wrong reasons.

All the hoopla and warm hugs and teary eyes is not selling behind the scenes. Many umpires are seriously p!ssed and feel Joyce has moved MLB ahead by years towards expanded instant replay...even on some judgement calls.

There are even those who don't buy the public swallowed theory that Leyland was playing the sportsmanship card by sending the pitcher to Joyce with the line-up the next day. Instead, they feel that Leyland was sticking it up Joyce's @ss by making him deal with the pitcher he screwed.

I don't necessarily buy into that, but I can see how some would think that.

Even those umpires who genuinely are empathetic towards Joyce feel his salute to the Pirates dugout went beyone reconcilliation and came close to pandering.

So...those are some thoughts and some information I've collected over a few drinks and from some phone calls. Give them any level of credibility you choose. I am not emotionally invested in this.

Boiled down, there is no doubt Joyce screwed the pooch. The reasons are all speculative. Maybe the baseball gods got even for the incredibly expanded strike zone that enabled Larson to get his perfect game. Who knows? Who cares? Life will go on.
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
With this type of throw and this level of noise from the fans, umpires know they have to "see" everything. Joyce did not have the optimal angle to see this play under these conditions. Mistake one.

If we believe the first part of Jim's explantaton, he violated THE cardinal rule of calling this play, he anticipated not the play but the RESULT. He has said he felt that the runner was going to beat the throw well before the play. Horrible and mistake 2.

Knowing that he needed to see the entire play, Joyce should have (and could have) gotten into position early enought to come hands on knees set and focus...he did not, mistake 3.

I can see and agree to these 3 mistakes.
quote:

Once making the call and experieincing the reaction and realizing that up to this point a perfect game was on the line, Joyce could have asked his crew chief, Cousins, to gather the crew and discuss the play. Even though everyone had their own role to play, there was good chance one of the other umpires could have provided additional information for Joyce to consider. This wasn't done. Mistake 4.

I cannot agree to this being a mistake. Not for this. There was no reason for a meeting. He messed up one call in which is his call all the way. Why would this be a consideration by any? It happens all the time and no meetings are done then. The only reason for this consideration is b/c it was an attempted perfect game. I don't buy this one as being a mistake. Not by any umpire's standards that is willing to stand on his own 2 feet despite the call and argument.

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