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33 replies

Rotational Hitting, et al (sorry - long)

GunEmDown10GunEmDown101,000+ posts
OK, bear with me. This is just a post to make you say HHMMmmmmmmmmm?? Not trying to offend or create drama, or take away from some great hitting instructors and/or their top selling DVD's, just ponder this....

I read a comment in an earlier thread that the rotational swing, and Albert Pujols was the example, centered on rotation around the rear hip. Some were for, some were against that opinion. The good news is you were all correct, but the bad news is MAYBE you are all ALSO wrong. Confused

If we stick with the Pujols example, specifically video of his pro swing where his rear foot is entirely off the ground at contact, I offer this dissenting opinion.

First a definition and an absolute. The very definition of a rotational movement centers around spinning or turning, at a variable 90 degree plane. OK - that's cool for a 1 dimensional object. But, the human body is 3 dimensional. So, a rotational movement around a 3 dimensional object REQUIRES the rotation to occur around an AXIS. This axis MUST bear the weight of the object that is rotating, that is the absolute for a 3 dimensional object.

So, that being said, if Albert's rear foot is off the ground at contact which occurs AFTER 100% weight shift to the front side the axis must be centered around the FRONT HIP, as the front foot is the only part of the 3 dimensional object that is in contact with the ground. This maintains the weight bearing axis and allows for the rotation of the upper body.

But, I've also seen many rotational hitters with their rear foot in contact with the ground, bearing the weight of the rotating object. I've even seen video examples of Pujols hitting with his rear foot on the ground. So, total weight shift is not 100%, therefore the the axis for rotation is the rear hip. Furthermore, maybe it is not the hip(s) that matter, but the body's core that carries the inertia created by the rotation.

Did I say there were absolutes that apply in my example? Only in the laws of physics. Quite honestly, I have another opinion that there are actually two rotations occuring. The object rotation - the body, and an orbital rotation - the BAT! Which is another physics lesson entirely.

Maybe it's just safer to say the best swing is magical. Because.... we recognize it when we see it, but we can't really explain it. Wink

I'm out - PEACE... GED10DaD
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P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
All rotation is finished by the time the foot moves forward or comes off the ground. You are correct in that there are two pivot points, one in the hands and one in the rear hip.

But, the human body is 3 dimensional. So, a rotational movement around a 3 dimensional object REQUIRES the rotation to occur around an AXIS. This axis MUST bear the weight of the object that is rotating, that is the absolute for a 3 dimensional object.

What you say here can't be argued, it is true. The thing about Pujols' swing, is that his front foot is not weighted until nearly all of the rotation in the rear hip is finished. At that point, the front hip moves backward as the front leg gets weighted and blocked to stop forward momentum. That move will help to speed up the bat and upper body turn, much like an object sitting on a car rolling down hill that hits a brick wall. The hands are adding to that speed-up as they are the second stage of the rocket or booster/second engine.
UB Understand Baseball10+ posts
When does Pujols hit the ball the hardest? I promise it is when all his weight comes off his backfoot, and is transfered into his frontside. Even Pujols can't have a perfect swing everytime, but if he could he would want to have rotation occuring around the front hip, with a non-weight bearing backside. Rotation occurs around the backside, when Pujols doesn't have his "best" swing. Post a video in a hr derby where he rotates on his back hip.
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Quincy:
Roberto Clemente 1971

http://web.baseballhalloffame....mv&type=v_free&_mp=1




Just proved my point again. Rotation is finished and back to front momentum brings his foot off the ground. It remains to be seen or maybe not, but I don't think you could be successful with that much forward movement (if finishing that far forward) in today's game. Mantle had a lot of forward momentum in his swing, but he stayed behind his front leg. Pedroia has a lot of forward movement also, but he stays behind his front leg also.
P 80PATRIOT100+ posts
At that point, the front hip moves backward as the front leg gets weighted and blocked to stop forward momentum. That move will help to speed up the bat and upper body turn, much like an object sitting on a car rolling down hill that hits a brick wall.

I don't know much about hitting mechanics but that co insides with what I tell kids about locking their front leg. To get them to relate I bring regular and a wooden spoon to practice and get them to fling a rock or a dirt clod like you would in a cafeteria food fight. They can get the rock to go further with the smaller spoon (which is a good lesson about using lighter bats). The heavier spoon gets them to realize that the strength in the front fingers that stop the spoon is as important as the thumb that swings the spoon because the front finger controls the momentum.
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Understand Baseball:
When does Pujols hit the ball the hardest? I promise it is when all his weight comes off his backfoot, and is transfered into his frontside. Even Pujols can't have a perfect swing everytime, but if he could he would want to have rotation occuring around the front hip, with a non-weight bearing backside. Rotation occurs around the backside, when Pujols doesn't have his "best" swing. Post a video in a hr derby where he rotates on his back hip.




UB,

You just answered your own question. What he can do in a HR Derby, he can't do in a game. You have to be able to adjust to different pitches and speeds in a game. If you want to teach kids how to win a HR Derby, you teach them to rotate around the front hip, if you want them to be sucessful in games, teach them to rotate around the back hip.
GunEmDown10GunEmDown101,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by powertoallfields:...The thing about Pujols' swing, is that his front foot is not weighted until nearly all of the rotation in the rear hip is finished. At that point, the front hip moves backward as the front leg gets weighted and blocked to stop forward momentum. That move will help to speed up the bat and upper body turn, much like an object sitting on a car rolling down hill that hits a brick wall. The hands are adding to that speed-up as they are the second stage of the rocket or booster/second engine.
PWR, I love it too, thanks for adding to it.

Did I understand your last point? Once the front leg gets weighted and blocked the upper body turn you wrote about is not part of the rotation supported by the axis? And you are absolutely corect, when the front side is blocked, it transfers inertia, created by rotating momentum, into that orbital object - the bat. The transfer is thru the hands, where the torque becomes leverage. The faster the interia = more energy tranferred into the ball. Thats why we preach strong hands, it allows the hitter to release the energy into the ball.

I would also argue the hands are the weakest link!!

Good stuff...GED10DaD
Last edited by GunEmDown10
GunEmDown10GunEmDown101,000+ posts
Also, for the sake of discussion, let me state what I always teach my kids. I tell them to imagine there is a pole driven thru the top of their helmet, thru their body, thru their rear hip/knee, into the ground. I always use that example. It seemed to be the best way to describe it, where they could get it. Then I would draw a picture or show them one like this, to let them SEE it.



I then explained the front leg is blocked, with a firm front knee, to allow the energy created by the rotation of their body to tranfer to their hands, to the bat, to put all that energy into the ball. I explained the powerline runs thru their front side body, thru the front hip/knee/leg, into the ground. And, that the energy transfer from hitting that stiffened up front side is what allows their swing to drive the ball, with power.

So, now I think of UB's example! And if you draw or graph it, the rotating axis and the powerline become the same. Interesting huh?
GED10DaD
Last edited by GunEmDown10
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
And if you draw or graph it, the rotating axis and the powerline become the same.




No, they don't. Obviously, the shoulders rotate around the spine and I can do that without rotating my hips in any way.

Look at it this way. Take as an example a top. The top does nothing to make itself spin, correct? Without the string, the winding of that string, and the pulling of that string, the top would not spin. The shoulders are the same. Once rotation starts, it continues until it loses momentum. Obviously, the ground isn't providing any momentum (maybe some resistance). In my example above, I moved my shoulders by using my core muscles, not by rotation of either hip or leg.

In the swing, many things contribute to the turning of the shoulders; momentum, the weight of the bat, the stopping of the lower body rotation, the core muscles, etc...

In a golf swing, you can pull with the front side because you don't have to adjust the swing once the plane is set. In baseball, once you start to pull or rotate with the front side, your ability to adjust to off speed or a breaking pitch is severely hampered. To rotate around your front leg, you have to commit to your swing much earlier. If Posada (in the link provided below) was rotating around his front hip, he would not be able to check this swing as he does here.


http://www.hittingillustrated....Posadasidebyside.gif


Just think about it for a moment, if I was rotating around my front leg I would or could keep spinning after contact, but it doesn't happen.....well....in the MLB anyway.
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Thats why we preach strong hands, it allows the hitter to release the energy into the ball.

I would also argue the hands are the weakest link!!




Yep! Even in a golf swing. You can only swing as hard as what the wrists, hands and specifically, the fingers can bare. Also, they must be able to handle the collision between the bat and ball. This is why Ted Williams squeezed a rubber ball so much and what allowed him to use a lighter bat.
GunEmDown10GunEmDown101,000+ posts
True, the shoulders can rotate around the spine, without rotating the hips, which we know is a weak swing. Very good point. So, we agree the hips are the catalyst to power the explosive rotation we all want our hitters to have.

But, the question remains - where is the axis? So, the back side acts like the motor and the front side the brakes. GED10DaD
Last edited by GunEmDown10
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by GunEmDown10:
Can it start on the back side and finish on the front? Or, is the release of energy, at least at this level, so explosive the momentum (in theory) is a short flash, and spins down on its own after the initial blast, basically the absence of energy?
GED10DaD




If I'm reading what you are saying correctly (I'm no physics professor, LOL) launch and spend is what I believe in. I believe in stretch between the back hip and the hands and that is the energy that is released at "go" (the point of no return or commitment).
Last edited by powertoallfields
GunEmDown10GunEmDown101,000+ posts
LOL, me either. I like the spinning top example. I think you hit on something that might be the most important part of this thread. There are a few ways to stop the spinning top. 1. lack of energy/momentum, it just spins down because the resistence from the ground eats up the energy from the pulled string. 2. it hits a mass, greater than the energy stored from the pulled string and it stops, usually releasing the last bit of energy in a chaotic way and it shoots off in another direction quickly ending the spin. I'm sure there are others, but #2 is most compelling part of the example. You are right, if the rotation of the upper body does not hit that mass of resistence, the stiff front side, it will continue to spin, until acted on by something else. Therefore, initially at least, the rotation has to start on the rear hip. Right? Does that make sense? Because the front side is the mass that releases the stored energy. Maybe the role of the front hip is too apply a fulcrum for the LEVERAGE!

And the golf swing may be the most accurate way to describe the HR derby swing too. Because, in the HR derby swing, little adjustment is made once the plane path is set, because you know your partner is throw a FB in the spot you want, no adjustment. Not quite the same as a stationary target, but for a guy like Hamilton, darn close enough!

Very cool, point well made. GED10DaD
Last edited by GunEmDown10
UB Understand Baseball10+ posts
Guys, I really enjoyed reading your examples. What I saw with Posada was the backside stoping rotation before the momentum slammed into the stiff front side. I still see the swing rotating around the front hip. It may start at the backhip, but rotation (with good weight transfer) occurs around the front hip. We may be both describing the same thing, just in different ways.

This is a clip that I think of as rotation occuring around the back hip. I see no weight transfer is occuring, just spinning. To me this is an example of a bad swing. What are your thoughts? The clip is below (the swing starts at 1:47 and ends at 2:00)

Swing
UB Understand Baseball10+ posts
One last thing...The hitter is on his back toe at contact because of the extreme amount of tilt of his shoulders. This is not because of weight transfer in the swing. MLB hitters have tilt, in order to level out the swing plane, but this amount to me is rediculous. The pitching mound would have to be 70 foot high for the bat path to match the downward path of the baseball. Once again, your thoughts?
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Understand Baseball:
Guys, I really enjoyed reading your examples. What I saw with Posada was the backside stoping rotation before the momentum slammed into the stiff front side. I still see the swing rotating around the front hip. It may start at the backhip, but rotation (with good weight transfer) occurs around the front hip. We may be both describing the same thing, just in different ways.

This is a clip that I think of as rotation occuring around the back hip. I see no weight transfer is occuring, just spinning. To me this is an example of a bad swing. What are your thoughts? The clip is below (the swing starts at 1:47 and ends at 2:00)

Swing




Yep! That's a bad swing!
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Understand Baseball:
One last thing...The hitter is on his back toe at contact because of the extreme amount of tilt of his shoulders. This is not because of weight transfer in the swing. MLB hitters have tilt, in order to level out the swing plane, but this amount to me is rediculous. The pitching mound would have to be 70 foot high for the bat path to match the downward path of the baseball. Once again, your thoughts?




Yep! I agree!
F 4for410+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Understand Baseball:
I still see the swing rotating around the front hip. It may start at the backhip, but rotation (with good weight transfer) occurs around the front hip....


This is correct.

quote:
This is a clip that I think of as rotation occuring around the back hip. I see no weight transfer is occuring, just spinning. To me this is an example of a bad swing. What are your thoughts? The clip is below (the swing starts at 1:47 and ends at 2:00)

Swing


That's a bad swing. It's illustrates perfectly why a back hip centric only approach is wrong.
Last edited by 4for4
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
This is shift then swing. This is front hip rotation! Do you think he could adjust this swing once he got that weight on his front foot? No way! Of course, you don't have to in golf or slow pitch softball, hitting off a tee, hitting off a machine or much at all in bp or HR Derby.

Also notice how his back foot ends up past his front foot. Ever seen a MLB player do that?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wguFY0DDoAU

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