Skip to main content

This takes a bit to set up, so bear with me. 

 

In a game last week, we were down 9-0 in the top of the 4th (we were the home team), and wanted to make a pitching change for the 5th inning. When the top of the 4th ended, we made some changes. We decided to put our 3B in to pitch. Our best option to take over at 3B was our DH, so what we did was put the DH at 3B (effectively killing the DH), move the starting 3B to P, move the starting P to LF, and take the starting LF out of the game. It's now time to point out that the DH was hitting for our CF. 

 

Now, under pro baseball rules, our CF (who was being DH'd for) would now hit in the spot that our LF occupied, since the DH entered the game on defense and the LF was the one who came out of the game. I was (mistakenly) under the impression that this was the HS rule as well. As I now know, that is not the rule. If the DH enters the game on defense, the player being DH'd for has to come out of the game. (I have been unable to find the reasoning behind this, but my guess is that it is to keep a team from manipulating a lineup in its favor and 'saving' a player for a situation. Although that doesn't make much sense, because if a kid's good enough to save for a big spot, he's probably someone you want in your lineup to begin with. Anywho.) Apparently the umpires that evening didn't know the rule either, because they allowed us to make the changes. 

 

In the bottom of the 4th (with all of the changes now in effect), our DH/3B led off with a walk. Then our 8-hole singled. That brought up the 9-hole, which had been previously been our LF. We sent up our CF (who, remember, had been DH'd for to start the game), thinking this was the legal move. He reached on a error, loading the bases. Our leadoff then came up and fell behind 0-2. This is when their assistant coach approached the umpires about our mistake. The crux of my question (I apologize for burying the lede) is about what did happen, and what should have happened..


Here's what eventually happened: They (the umpires, with the help of the other team's assistant coach) correctly determined that the wrong player hit in the 9-hole. But then they made a couple of decisions that were really poor. So poor, in fact, that had we have been in a 1-run game, the result would have been you all seeing me leading every newscast in the country for losing my s*** at a HS baseball game. They ruled that our 7-hole hitter, the original DH who was now on 3rd base, was out. They also ruled that our original 9-hole, who was sitting on the bench, would have to pick up the current at-bat because he was supposed to be in the game and his turn had gotten skipped. So he goes up to the plate, very confused I might add, with an 0-2 count on him. He struck out, and the game proceeded from there. We eventually lost 11-1.


After looking up the rules this past weekend, I now know the DH rule a little bit better. What I can't find, though, is what should have happened after it was discovered that we were in the wrong. I can only think of 2 possible solutions (and one of them is really far-fetched):

 

1. The situation is treated like any other batter-out-of-order scenario. Because a pitch was thrown after the wrong hitter got on base, there is no penalty and the game moves on. In this case, however, the original 9-hole/LF would replace the CF on 1B and reclaim his original spot in the batting order (because the DH and the player he was hitting for cannot be in the lineup at the same time).

 

2. The umpires could decide to basically have a 'do-over' with the correct hitter. Basically, we could have pretended that the 9-hole AB with the wrong hitter never happened, and bring up the right guy to hit with runners on 1st and 2nd and no outs. I know this one's a bit silly, but is it any sillier that having the 9-hole come up to finish an AB that the leadoff hitter began?

 

I can't think of any other plausible solutions (besides the obvious: know the rules and don't do it again). If there any umpires or coaches or anyone out there that has seen this, heard about this, or knows about this, please let me know. Thanks.

 

Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

Wait, why are we announcing DH changes in the bottom of the 4th when the only reason we're putting the DH in the game defensively is to make a pitching change that won't go into effect until the top half of the 5th anyway?

 

For this clarification, I'm going to assume all the defensive changes were actually made in the top of the 4th.

 

In that case, we can assume you're starting lineup looked like this based on the info you gave (I've assigned batting order spots to positions that don't matter randomly, since only the DH/CF and original LF batting order spots actually come into play).

 

1-P
2-C
3-1B
4-2B
5-3B
6-SS
7-DH/CF
8-RF
9-LF

 

After subbing you should have this:

 

1-LF
2-C
3-1B
4-2B
5-P
6-SS
7-3B(original DH)
8-RF
9-Original LF somewhere, presumably CF

 

But what you actually send to the plate is this :

 

1-LF
2-C
3-1B
4-2B
5-P
6-SS
7-3B(original DH)
8-RF
9-Original CF illegally subbing for original LF.

 

Given that setup, and given that the #7 hole was supposed to lead off the bottom of the 4th, when you got to 0-2 on the lead off hitter and things were protested, you have the original DH/7-hole on 3rd, the RF/8-hole on 2B, and the Original CF/illegal sub/9-hole on 1st.

 

Correct call then is runner on 1st is out for being illegal sub for LF.  The original LF re-enters in the 9-hole for subsequent ABs, and on defense (coach can also sub someone else for him if desired).  Since illegal sub has become a legal batter in the 9-hole, no further action is necessary, lead-off hitter is the correct batter and continues his AB down 0-2 with 1 out and runners on 1st and 2nd.

 

Given all that, the DH can't be the illegal sub at any point, since he either moved to 3B in the top of the 4th or was announced as moving in the bottom of the 4th and batted in his spot in the lineup correctly.  Note that even if they reported that they were doing this:

 

1-LF
2-C
3-1B
4-2B
5-P
6-SS
7-Original CF (DH removed)
8-RF
9-3B (original LF moved to 3B)

 

The DH batting in the the 7-hole is just an un-reported sub since he can re-enter, and is therefore legal (though that leads us back to the CF being an illegal sub in the 9-hole).

 

Even if they somehow thought they could report the DH as moved to 3B and in the 9-hole in the order, I don't think you can make him an illegal sub, as you're not allowed to change his spot in the batting order and by having him bat in the 7-hole they've actually followed the rules even if they reported a change that would have been against the rules.  

 

If they did report that however, that could have led to them deciding this was the correct order

 

1-LF
2-C
3-1B
4-2B
5-P
6-SS
7-Original CF (DH removed)
8-RF
9-3B (Original LF)

 

And then incorrectly declaring the DH out as an illegal sub, once the CF has reached and pitches have been thrown to the lead off hitter the next correct move once things are protested is to put the 8-hole guy back at the plate down 0-2.  I was actually incorrect before, you don't PR for him if he's on base you just skip him and move the to the correct next batter, the 9-hitter, in your case the original LF, down 0-2, to be followed by the top of the order.  Since this is what they actually did, it appears that their mistake was in identifying who the actual illegal sub was (or your account of the situation is missing a detail that would somehow justify their decision).

Last edited by jacjacatk

Here's the original lineup:

 

1-RF

2-SS

3-P

4-3B

5-1B

6-C

7-DH (for CF)

8-2B

9-LF


 

There were no defensive substitutions in the top of the 4th. We made the changes in the bottom of the 4th so that our CF could hit in the 9th spot (remember, we thought at the time that it was legal).


Also, I spoke with two umpires whose opinions I respect, and they pretty much agreed with the first scenario I spelled out above: Once it was discovered that the CF was in the game illegally, he should have been taken off of 1B and replaced (i.e. ejected, as one posted described above) in the lineup with the original 9-hole, the LF. Also, an out should have awarded to the defense. The DH should not have been taken off 3rd, and the LF should not have been brought out of the dugout to finish the AB that the 1-hole started. (One of the umpires, who has been doing this for years, asked me, 'Did one of the umpires in your game have a scar above his left eye and a heavy Texan accent?' When I replied yes, he said, 'I'm not surprised they effed it up that bad, that guy has a hard time with the infield fly rule.')

 

I appreciate the thoughtful replies, they were very helpful.

There's no good reason to announce all the changes in the bottom of the 4th since it costs you flexibility and potentially leads to this sort of situation (and because you don't really need to announce the defensive changes until they happen anyway).  Even if you think you can legally sub the CF for the LF, you should just be announcing that offensive sub when the 9-hole comes up, there's no reason to mention the positions.

 

I think making all the changes preemptively in the the bottom of the 4th may have been what led to the confusion that caused them to make the decision they did (which is it least semi-consistent, once they've decided to remove the DH as the illegal player).  The correct decision was definitely to declare the CF out when discovered and eject him (he doesn't get replaced on the basepath, the original LF just replaces him in the order and on defense) and then continue on with the lead-off hitters' AB.

Add Reply

Post
.
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×