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14 replies

Run score?

Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
Curious as to what the denizens here think about this:

I was evaluating a relatively new umpire yesterday. Bottom of 7, R2, two outs, with the vistors behind by three.

R2 off on contact. Batter hits a sharp roller to F6 who bobbles the ball not once, but twice and throw "short" to first pulling F3 about six inches off the bag.

Initially, BU, who allowed himself to become straighlined, ruled the batter out at first for the third out. PU after seeing the touch at third lined up home for a potential play there and first and saw the foot off the bag.

Both the vistor's HC and AC came running onto the field asking (screaming) that BU "get some help". While they are pleading their case, R2 comes in and touches home.

BU talked to PU and then ruled the runner safe. Home HC knew it was the right call and got his kids back on the field, but asked whether or not R2's run now score or if he shouldn't go back to third where he was when the play at first took place.

Visitors argued that no one had called time during the discussion at first so his run should count.

How do you think the two JV umpires should have handled this?
Last edited {1}
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LB luv baseball5,000+ posts
Seems to me the ball was dead for at least these two reasons:

1) BU called 3rd out at 1st base
2) Multiple on field conferences.
A (Coach and Umpire)
B Presumably the two umpires separate from the coaches before overturning the initial call. Game management dictates one of the things that should have been discussed between the umpires before announcing the overturn is the game situation including the placement of runners

My ruling 1st and 3rd. Batter up. Play ball.
F 3FingeredGlove1,000+ posts
Assuming that this occurred in the top of an inning, so that the visitors were at bat, then clearly play is interrupted once the offensive coaches entered the field of play. So the runner stays at third. If for some reason only a defensive coach came on the field, I'd let the run score.

I'm not convinced that the apparent third out immediately causes a dead ball.
Last edited by 3FingeredGlove
LB luv baseball5,000+ posts
IMO you could use Two rules for Dead Ball after 3rd out call on B/R at 1st base:

1 Definition of Dead Ball: "A ball out of play because of a legally created temporary suspension of play." IMO a 3rd out call on B/R at 1st base does this. Factor in the conferences and there is ample evidence to meet this definition.

2 The game ends when the visiting team has completed it's final at bat and trails in the score. When a Umpire calls a 3rd out on the B/R at first base the ball becomes dead at that point because the game is over. In this example following a conference the call was changed so runners return to last leagally occupied base when the dead ball occured.
MU Mr Umpire100+ posts
I'm going with "It depends how the players react".

This is similar to a foul call when the ball is fair which happened a couple of years ago in MLB. If the defense is affected by the call, then keep R2 at 3B. If they aren't, then let the play go on. Once the umpire influences the game, the participants affected cannot be held accountable for it IMO.

Now, as for how they should have handled it:
1) BU gets a better angle.
2) AC gets sent to the dugout.
3) After calmed and 1 on 1, HC gets explained to that PU has other responsibilities on that play. And, he shouldn't be looking for a bail out on plays with multiple runners especially if one could be scoring. PU may or may not see it.
4) BU goes to short RF and waits for the bottom of the inning.

I accept getting help when needed and the BU got lucky that PU could help. But, he needs to not rely on that and do a better job of getting into position, knowing the situation before asking, and making his calls with no help if possible.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
I'm with you, Dash. But, remember these were first and second year umpires.

The PU, a second year guy, handled the HC with:

"Coach, the ball was either dead and the run didn't score, or it was live and you and your assistant are gone for running out onto the field in a live ball situation and the game is forfeit. I'll let you choose."

The runner was put on third and the next batter popped up to the shortstop.
D dash_riprock1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:

The PU, a second year guy, handled the HC with:

"Coach, the ball was either dead and the run didn't score, or it was live and you and your assistant are gone for running out onto the field in a live ball situation and the game is forfeit. I'll let you choose."


A 2nd year guy did that? That's a great job under fire. He's ready for varsity.
piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by dash_riprock:
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:

The PU, a second year guy, handled the HC with:

"Coach, the ball was either dead and the run didn't score, or it was live and you and your assistant are gone for running out onto the field in a live ball situation and the game is forfeit. I'll let you choose."


A 2nd year guy did that? That's a great job under fire. He's ready for varsity.


agreed, I like that kids thought process!
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by piaa_ump:
quote:
Originally posted by dash_riprock:
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:

The PU, a second year guy, handled the HC with:

"Coach, the ball was either dead and the run didn't score, or it was live and you and your assistant are gone for running out onto the field in a live ball situation and the game is forfeit. I'll let you choose."


A 2nd year guy did that? That's a great job under fire. He's ready for varsity.


agreed, I like that kids thought process!


The "kid" is 27 with three years experience reffing basketball. He's a second year with us and has an excellent trainer. Big Grin

He is learning mechanics quickly and is still working on watching the ball to the glove and not tunnelling. When he gets more consistent with that, he'll be ready for some lower level varsity.
Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
I agree 1000% NJUmp. Putting the ball in play is one of my pet peaves. As a base ump I am a sticklier for watching the ball/pitcher. If my partner doesn't verbalize "Play" then how am I to know. If I watch the PU to see when or if it is put in play then I can miss a pick.
I have been known to watch a pick at first then ask my partner if the ball was in play before I rule. They get the hint after that.

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