Runner fails to retag a base

quote:

Originally posted by meachrm:
How would you score the following...
Runners on 2nd and third, ball hit to short – kid on third got in a run down, kid on second went past third base bag, went back to second but did not retouch third- how do you score that since the umpire called him out

I hate to do this, but trying to dig the answer out of the NFHS book, then typing it would take too long. Understanding that there is an answer in the NFHS book someplace, please accept what is in OBR because its much clearer anyway.

OBR 10.09 PUTOUTS
A putout is a statistic credited to a fielder whose action causes the out of a batter-runner or runner, as set forth in this Rule 10.09.
...
(c) The official scorer shall credit automatic putouts as follows (and shall credit no assists on these plays except as specified):
(1) When the batter is called out on an Infield Fly that is not caught, the official scorer shall credit the putout to the fielder who the scorer believes could have made the catch;
(2) When a runner is called out for being touched by a fair ball (including an Infield Fly), the official scorer shall credit the putout to the fielder nearest the ball;
(3) When a runner is called out for running out of line to avoid being tagged, the official scorer shall credit the putout to the fielder whom the runner avoided;
(4) When a runner is called out for passing another runner, the official scorer shall credit the putout to the fielder nearest the point of passing;
(5) When a runner is called out for running the bases in reverse order, the official scorer shall credit the putout to the fielder covering the base the runner left in starting his reverse run;
(6) When a runner is called out for having interfered with a fielder, the official scorer shall credit the putout to the fielder with whom the runner interfered, unless the fielder was in the act of throwing the ball when the interference occurred, in which case the official scorer shall credit the putout to the fielder for whom the throw was intended and shall credit an assist to the fielder whose throw was interfered with; or
(7) When the batter-runner is called out because of interference by a preceding runner, as provided in Rule 6.05(m), the official scorer shall credit the putout to the first baseman. If the fielder interfered with was in the act of throwing the ball, the official scorer shall credit such fielder with an assist but shall credit only one assist on any one play under the provisions of Rule 10.09(c)(6) and 10.09(c)(7).

quote:

(5) When a runner is called out for running the bases in reverse order, the official scorer shall credit the putout to the fielder covering the base the runner left in starting his reverse run;

Ok, you asked how to score this. This is the OBR rule applied. The runner is called out for missing third on his reverse run. It would seem the short stop or 2nd baseman would get the putout because the runner left second base. Batter gets an FC/RBI

(5) When a runner is called out for running the bases in reverse order, the official scorer shall credit the putout to the fielder covering the base the runner left in starting his reverse run;


I debated this rule trying to determine "the base the runner left in starting his reverse run" means the base he started on or the base he missed when returning. Opinions?

quote:

Originally posted by OK Heat:
(5) When a runner is called out for running the bases in reverse order, the official scorer shall credit the putout to the fielder covering the base the runner left in starting his reverse run;


I debated this rule trying to determine "the base the runner left in starting his reverse run" means the base he started on or the base he missed when returning. Opinions?

You're looking at the wrong rule. Running the bases in reverse refers to an intentional illegal act by the offense; simply returning to a base is not illegal.

I would score YOCYS (you're out 'cause your stupid) and probably give the put out to the third baseman, since he touched this base before running backwards, which I think is technically "running bases in reverse order".

He had reached third safely and decided to go back to second. If this isn't running in reverse order, I wouldn't know what was.

quote:

You're looking at the wrong rule. Running the bases in reverse refers to an intentional illegal act by the offense; simply returning to a base is not illegal.

Not sure what you mean by this, I'm just trying to determine what they mean by "the base the runner left in starting his reverse run" to determine which fielder gets credit for putout. I believe it to be the base he was on when the ball was put in play.

Running the bases in reverse order is not meant to be taken literally like a guy hit the ball and ran to third. It is referring to baserunners that have to backtrack to the base they started from. For example, if a runner on first takes off on a fly ball, passes second base, realizes the ball is being caught, has to hurry back to first to avoid being doubled off. He has to run in reverse and has to retouch 2nd before going back to first.

quote:

Originally posted by OK Heat:
Running the bases in reverse order is not meant to be taken literally like a guy hit the ball and ran to third.

Yes, it is. That's why it states "(w)hen a runner is called out for running the bases in reverse order..." A runner is only called out for that in circumstances where he is doing so illegally--otherwise he is put out via defensive play. Think about it--was he out simply because he ran back to a base? Nope.

7.08 Any runner is out when—

(i) After he has acquired legal possession of a base, he runs the bases in reverse order
for the purpose of confusing the defense or making a travesty of the game. The umpire shall immediately call “Time” and declare the runner out;

This is the rule you are referring to. This is not what THIS situation is about. This guy just simply forgot to retouch third on his way back to second and that was why he was called out.

So the rule I'm quoting in 10.09 is correct. The question was about how to score this situation. Who gets credit for the putout. (The runner that was called out for missing third must be accounted for, so either third baseman, second baseman or shortstop gets a putout)

quote:

Originally posted by OK Heat:
7.08 Any runner is out when—

(i) After he has acquired legal possession of a base, he runs the bases in reverse order
for the purpose of confusing the defense or making a travesty of the game. The umpire shall immediately call “Time” and declare the runner out;

This is the rule you are referring to.

Yes.

quote:

Originally posted by OK Heat:
This is not what THIS situation is about. This guy just simply forgot to retouch third on his way back to second and that was why he was called out.

Yes.

quote:

Originally posted by OK Heat:
So the rule I'm quoting in 10.09 is correct.

No. The rule you are quoting--10.09c(5)--only refers to the above violation.

quote:

Originally posted by OK Heat:
The question was about how to score this situation. Who gets credit for the putout. (The runner that was called out for missing third must be accounted for, so either third baseman, second baseman or shortstop gets a putout)

Whoever completed the appeal gets the putout.

quote:

No. The rule you are quoting--10.09c(5)--only refers to the above violation.


quote:
Originally posted by OK Heat:
The question was about how to score this situation. Who gets credit for the putout. (The runner that was called out for missing third must be accounted for, so either third baseman, second baseman or shortstop gets a putout)


Whoever completed the appeal gets the putout.

Thanks for your persistence with your position on this. I did some research and found that you are indeed correct. I was just going with the original reply that quoted 10.09. This is indeed an appeal situation.

7.10 Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when—


b) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each
base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged

So it looks like the third baseman gets the put out. If this were the third out, the run still counts.

Thank you, I am not afraid to admit when I am wrong. I still think that other rule about reverse running is a little crazy, but my research found some historical games that were the cause for the rule to be there.