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25 replies

Running Circles Around the Plate - What Should Have Happened?

J jhdoveMember
Hello Everyone,

I've been reading this forum for years and for once have seen something that I never saw before, and wanted some of your expert opinions about.

18U tourney game. Runner on third. Pitcher throws a wild pitch, and runs to cover home as the catcher retrieves the ball and tosses it to the pitcher.

Runner slides and apparently misses the plate and was missed by the tag.

No call from the umpire who stands watching.

Rather than a quick dive back to the plate, and a quick attempt at a re-tag (which is *always* what I've seen happen in the past) the runner stands up and faces the plate. The pitcher (holding the ball) stands on the plate, facing the runner.

After about 10 sec of this (with many players gathering and the coaches yelling) the umpire is still just standing at watching.

The runner assumes a stance like a wrestler squaring off or a basketball player defending a player with the ball, and starts to circle around the plate looking for an opening. The umpire stands and watches.

After about 20 sec of the pitcher following him around, the pitcher finally lunges and tags him out.

Should this have been allowed to happen?

Does the runner have to make an attempt to touch the plate in some time frame before being deemed out for giving up on the play?

Is the runner out of the base line for circling the plate before the pitcher makes a definitive move to tag?

How would you experienced umps have handled this?
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

TX-Ump74TX-Ump74100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
quote:
Originally posted by TX-Ump74:
I have an out once the runner starts to circle..."of the baseline"


A runner is out for being out of the basepath when he moves more then three feet away from the path established to avoid a tag.

Yawetag pretty much has it.


With the runner standing there and the Pitcher with the ball standing on the plate "following" him around in a circle... at that point I have him moving outside the baseline... I'm not going to let the runner make cat and mouse game out of it. The pitcher has the ball so any movement by runner in a circle around home plate is to avoid a tag thus he is out of the baseline. Now if he just stood there and did not move in a circle then we stand there and wait...
J jhdoveMember
quote:
Originally posted by yawetag:
I've got nothing until:
1) The runner touches the plate
2) The pitcher tags the runner
3) The pitcher attempts to tag the runner, and the runner goes more than 3 feet to either side of the line established at that point.

I can only imagine how stupid this whole thing looked.


It did indeed look quite ridiculous, which is why I decided to ask all of your opinions as I'd never seen such a thing before.

My guess was correct, that the runner would be out once the pitcher made a move toward him and he moved three feet away from the line connecting him to the plate.

The pitcher should have made a move quicker, but I think because the runner was *much* more generally athletic, and with the chaos developing from the other players and the bench, he froze for a bit.
Last edited by jhdove
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TX-Ump74:
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
quote:
Originally posted by TX-Ump74:
I have an out once the runner starts to circle..."of the baseline"


A runner is out for being out of the basepath when he moves more then three feet away from the path established to avoid a tag.

Yawetag pretty much has it.


With the runner standing there and the Pitcher with the ball standing on the plate "following" him around in a circle... at that point I have him moving outside the baseline... I'm not going to let the runner make cat and mouse game out of it. The pitcher has the ball so any movement by runner in a circle around home plate is to avoid a tag thus he is out of the baseline. Now if he just stood there and did not move in a circle then we stand there and wait...


I prefer to use the rules available and not make new ones up. And since this situation is covered by rule, even a 9.01 (c) attempt by the umpire would be inappropriate.

If the pitcher attempts a tag and the runner moves three feet beyond his path to avoid it, I'll call the out.

As Dash posted, I'd also be watching for an appeal opportunity.
TX-Ump74TX-Ump74100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
quote:
Originally posted by TX-Ump74:
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
quote:
Originally posted by TX-Ump74:
I have an out once the runner starts to circle..."of the baseline"


A runner is out for being out of the basepath when he moves more then three feet away from the path established to avoid a tag.

Yawetag pretty much has it.


With the runner standing there and the Pitcher with the ball standing on the plate "following" him around in a circle... at that point I have him moving outside the baseline... I'm not going to let the runner make cat and mouse game out of it. The pitcher has the ball so any movement by runner in a circle around home plate is to avoid a tag thus he is out of the baseline. Now if he just stood there and did not move in a circle then we stand there and wait...


I prefer to use the rules available and not make new ones up. And since this situation is covered by rule, even a 9.01 (c) attempt by the umpire would be inappropriate.

If the pitcher attempts a tag and the runner moves three feet beyond his path to avoid it, I'll call the out.

As Dash posted, I'd also be watching for an appeal opportunity.


first I don't make up rules... I interpret them and in this situation the runner is clearly avoiding a tag by running around in a circle...
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
Isn't there some standard for a runner to have to persist in attempting to advance, or else he's considered to have abandoned the effort?

It seems to me if they stood there staring at each other for a long enough time, the runner would be deemed to have abandoned his effort to get to the base. And if the pitcher already has the ball and is standing on the plate, is anything more required in the way of an appeal?

I've seen situations where a hitter believes a liner has been caught, he peels off the first base line and heads to the dugout. At what point is he barred from getting out of the dugout and running to first base?
TX-Ump74TX-Ump74100+ posts
I am LMAO.. you guys would let a runner circle Home like a SUMO wrestler and not consider this out of the baseline and an attempt to touch home... WOW

So if I take this situation and the runner is standing 3rd base extended after missing home and the pitcher has the ball waiting for him to return to home... you would let the runner run back to 3rd base via the pitchers mound as long as the pitcher made no attempt to tag him... Not that I think this would ever happen but it is baseball...
Last edited by TX-Ump74
yawetagyawetag100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TX-Ump74:
So if I take this situation and the runner is standing 3rd base extended after missing home and the pitcher has the ball waiting for him to return to home... you would let the runner run back to 3rd base via the pitchers mound as long as the pitcher made no attempt to tag him...

I would. Is there a problem with this?
Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TX-Ump74:
I am LMAO.. you guys would let a runner circle Home like a SUMO wrestler and not consider this out of the baseline and an attempt to touch home... WOW

So if I take this situation and the runner is standing 3rd base extended after missing home and the pitcher has the ball waiting for him to return to home... you would let the runner run back to 3rd base via the pitchers mound as long as the pitcher made no attempt to tag him... Not that I think this would ever happen but it is baseball...

The pitcher didn't attempt to tag the runner so thethree foot line doesn't come into effect, but all pitcher has to do is appeal on the plate then. He didn't touch it either way.
F 3FingeredGlove1,000+ posts
TX-Ump74, It seems like you're supposing that various umpires here are telling you their notion of how to call this play. In fact they are paraphrasing the rule which provides an unambiguous basis for calling this play. Here's the actual rule for OBR:

7.08 Any runner is out when—
(a)(1) He runs more than three feet away from his baseline to avoid being tagged unless his action is to avoid interference with a fielder fielding a batted ball. A runner’s baseline is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely; or.....

While the runner is circling the plate without a tag attempt, no baseline has been established, and the player can't be out of his baseline. He's not out, unless he abandons his attempt to reach the base. If he does abandon, he can be put out by an appeal at the plate, or eventually be called out by the umpire. The remaining part of 7.08 (a) explains abandonment, and how it is called. See 7.08(k) for the appeal aspect.

Frankly, "agreeing to disagree" isn't a valid approach here. This is a situation which is clearly covered in the rules, and the correct call isn't a matter for continued debate.
Last edited by 3FingeredGlove
D dash_riprock1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Midlo Dad:


It seems to me if they stood there staring at each other for a long enough time, the runner would be deemed to have abandoned his effort to get to the base. And if the pitcher already has the ball and is standing on the plate, is anything more required in the way of an appeal?


It's not abandonment, and the appeal must be unmistakable to the umpire. If the runner is making no effort to touch the plate, and a fielder (with the ball) steps on the plate and looks at me, his intentions are clear. The runner is out on appeal.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by dash_riprock:
quote:
Originally posted by Midlo Dad:


It seems to me if they stood there staring at each other for a long enough time, the runner would be deemed to have abandoned his effort to get to the base. And if the pitcher already has the ball and is standing on the plate, is anything more required in the way of an appeal?


It's not abandonment, and the appeal must be unmistakable to the umpire. If the runner is making no effort to touch the plate, and a fielder (with the ball) steps on the plate and looks at me, his intentions are clear. The runner is out on appeal.


The two most misunderstood and misused terms in baseball have to be "abandonment" and "travesty."

Both are generally thrown about while having specific defintions.
JMoffJMoff1,000+ posts
I love you guys...

You can take the most bizarre situation none of you witnessed and turn it into a heated discussion.

Frankly I think this is one of those YHTBT situations to really see it. Did the runner give up? Did the defense give up? Who attempted what / when?

The devil is in the details and unless you saw the whole thing, how would you know?

As described, I would've expected blue to do exactly what he did and I'd either be screaming "TAG HIM" or "TOUCH THE PLATE" depending on my affiliation.

Of course I'm just a dad and what do we know?
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by JMoff:
I love you guys...

You can take the most bizarre situation none of you witnessed and turn it into a heated discussion.

Frankly I think this is one of those YHTBT situations to really see it. Did the runner give up? Did the defense give up? Who attempted what / when?

The devil is in the details and unless you saw the whole thing, how would you know?

As described, I would've expected blue to do exactly what he did and I'd either be screaming "TAG HIM" or "TOUCH THE PLATE" depending on my affiliation.

Of course I'm just a dad and what do we know?


In this case, apparently more than the coaches involved in the post and maybe an umpire or two.

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