If a batter perfomrs a SAC bunt, but due to fielding mistake, no out was recorded. The runner eventually comes around to score, is it an earned run?
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I think ... it goes like this.
Re-create the inning to see what would have happenend had the error not occurred. If the run would still would have scored under those circumstances, then it's earned.
Re-create the inning to see what would have happenend had the error not occurred. If the run would still would have scored under those circumstances, then it's earned.
RPD,
To follow RPD's (valid) logic through: If the inning is recreated without errors, then the "SAC Bunt" runner would have been out. Ergo, the run is unearned.
To follow RPD's (valid) logic through: If the inning is recreated without errors, then the "SAC Bunt" runner would have been out. Ergo, the run is unearned.
Not necessarily ...
OBrady's scenario didn't specify whether the error caused the RUNNER to be safe or the BATTER to be safe. I was picturing it as this:
1 out,
runner on 1st,
batter bunts,
infielder charges and makes a bad throw to 1st.
If the next guy up singles in the lead runner, I believe that run would be earned -- because even if they had thrown out the batter at 1st on the bunt, that run would have scored.
Now if the bunter then scores, I think THAT run would be unearned.
Whaddya think?
OBrady's scenario didn't specify whether the error caused the RUNNER to be safe or the BATTER to be safe. I was picturing it as this:
1 out,
runner on 1st,
batter bunts,
infielder charges and makes a bad throw to 1st.
If the next guy up singles in the lead runner, I believe that run would be earned -- because even if they had thrown out the batter at 1st on the bunt, that run would have scored.
Now if the bunter then scores, I think THAT run would be unearned.
Whaddya think?
Let me clarify the situation; runner on first, batter bunts toward first to advance runner to second, the bunt is down the first base line, the first baseman fields the ball - reaches out to tag the runner and misses. I see it as no error, just reached on a SAC Bunt. No errors made during the inning so after another sac bunt (advanceing runners to second and third) and a hit, the original bunter scored.
In that scenario, it all depends on your call that there was no error. If there was no error on the play, then what you have is simply a bunt single. And all subsequent runs are earned.
If you had scored an E on the 1B, then you would be saying that the bunter should've been out. With that call, you'd score the batter no AB, Sac bunt, safe on E-3. To determine earned vs. unearned runs: At that point you should've had a man on 2nd and 1 out. With another sac bunt, now man on 3rd and 2 out. The hit scores that man, so that run is earned. But if the first bunter (who reached on the E) also scores, that run is unearned, because he shouldn't have been on base at all. And once you get one more out, all subsequent runs that inning are unearned, because the inning should've been over at that point.
If you had scored an E on the 1B, then you would be saying that the bunter should've been out. With that call, you'd score the batter no AB, Sac bunt, safe on E-3. To determine earned vs. unearned runs: At that point you should've had a man on 2nd and 1 out. With another sac bunt, now man on 3rd and 2 out. The hit scores that man, so that run is earned. But if the first bunter (who reached on the E) also scores, that run is unearned, because he shouldn't have been on base at all. And once you get one more out, all subsequent runs that inning are unearned, because the inning should've been over at that point.
I thought a SAC is a SAC even if no out is recorded!?
Never mind, I looked up the rule on MLB.com:
They have to make an attempt on a lead runner and not be successful for it to be scored a SAC with no outs made. In my case it would be scored a hit.
SO let's change the question a little; an attempt was made on the runner going to second, no out recorded, when the batter now scores is it earned? (since he is scored as a SAC)
Never mind, I looked up the rule on MLB.com:
They have to make an attempt on a lead runner and not be successful for it to be scored a SAC with no outs made. In my case it would be scored a hit.
SO let's change the question a little; an attempt was made on the runner going to second, no out recorded, when the batter now scores is it earned? (since he is scored as a SAC)
O'B ... With all due respect, I think you still need to be a little more specific in your terminology. By using terms like "fielding mistake" and "no out recorded", you're still not stating whether or not an error was involved in the play. And that's significant.
As Midlo stated, the batter could reach 1st, have it corectly scored as a SAC, and yet still have reached on an error (if indeed there was one).
So ... if he reaches because of an error (SAC or no SAC) then his run will be unearned. If there's no error on the play, then his run is earned.
If I'm mistaken here, someone please let me know.
As Midlo stated, the batter could reach 1st, have it corectly scored as a SAC, and yet still have reached on an error (if indeed there was one).
So ... if he reaches because of an error (SAC or no SAC) then his run will be unearned. If there's no error on the play, then his run is earned.
If I'm mistaken here, someone please let me know.
O'Brady, let's take up the question you asked: What if he lays down a sac bunt, the play is made to 2nd, but too late, everyone is safe.
The scorekeeper in this situation has to make a judgment about whether the batter would have been safe had a play been made to first. Usually the answer will be no, in which event the scoring is sac bunt, batter safe at first on a fielder's choice, no AB charged, but also no error. You might think it was a "mental error" to make the play to the wrong base, but such a "mental error" is not scored as an error. Therefore all subsequent runs are earned.
If the scorekeeper believes the batter would've been safe at first even if the play had been made there, then it's a clean hit if everyone is safe, no force plays anywhere. This can happen, e.g., if you have runners at 1st and 2nd, great bunt down the third base line, only play remotely possible is to third but the runner is still called safe on the play.
In either case, if you don't see any errors then the runs can't be unearned.
The scorekeeper in this situation has to make a judgment about whether the batter would have been safe had a play been made to first. Usually the answer will be no, in which event the scoring is sac bunt, batter safe at first on a fielder's choice, no AB charged, but also no error. You might think it was a "mental error" to make the play to the wrong base, but such a "mental error" is not scored as an error. Therefore all subsequent runs are earned.
If the scorekeeper believes the batter would've been safe at first even if the play had been made there, then it's a clean hit if everyone is safe, no force plays anywhere. This can happen, e.g., if you have runners at 1st and 2nd, great bunt down the third base line, only play remotely possible is to third but the runner is still called safe on the play.
In either case, if you don't see any errors then the runs can't be unearned.
And of course, it is always scored a hit if, in the scorekeeper's opinion, the batter is "bunting primarily for a base hit".
Powerful guys these scorekeepers!!!
Powerful guys these scorekeepers!!!
I'll add a little more to see how you guys score it;
In this play the bunt was down first and the first baseman fielded the ball reached out to tag the batter as he advanced to first. In his mind he (F1) tagged the runner so he turned to check on the base runner who had advanced to second. The umps ruled - no tag made. In my mind, it is a hit. Anyone disagree?
In this play the bunt was down first and the first baseman fielded the ball reached out to tag the batter as he advanced to first. In his mind he (F1) tagged the runner so he turned to check on the base runner who had advanced to second. The umps ruled - no tag made. In my mind, it is a hit. Anyone disagree?
Only the person who sees the play can make the judgment, but it sounds like you're saying that he could have made the tag with ordinary effort. This is equivalent to tagging him and dropping the ball in the process. That would be a sac bunt, safe on E-3.
The problem, of course, is that he thinks he actually did make the tag! But the scorer must accept the umpire's rulings. There is no "E-U" in the scorebook, though it's often in people's minds!
The problem, of course, is that he thinks he actually did make the tag! But the scorer must accept the umpire's rulings. There is no "E-U" in the scorebook, though it's often in people's minds!
obrady, you forgot the 1st rule. What rules is that game being played under. Then you forgot the 2nd rule, how many outs were there? 
For this particular situation, those things make a lot of difference.
In every rule book, if there are 2 outs, there can not be a sacrifice.
As you can see, unless I made a typo, the NFHS rule is definitely different than the OBR rule found on MLB.com, as is the NCAA rule.
All three rules pretty much say the same thing, but in very different ways. The main difference is, the HS rule doesn’t have the language in it allowing the SK to make a judgment about whether or not he thought the batter was attempting to get a base hit as opposed to a sac bunt the way OBR and NCAA allow.
Unfortunately, you might get an argument out of someone who was really a stickler and it was a HS game.
NFHS Rule 2-31-1… A sacrifice is a bunt which enables any runner to advance, or a fly ball(sacrifice fly) which enables a runner to score. In either case, the result is the batter-runner being put out before he reaches first base, or would have resulted in his being put out if the batted ball had been fielded without error, and provided 2 were not out when the ball was hit.
OBR SACRIFICES
10.09
(a) Score a sacrifice bunt when, before two are out, the batter advances one or more runners with a bunt and is put out at first base, or would have been put out except for a fielding error. (b) Score a sacrifice bunt when, before two are out, the fielders handle a bunted ball without error in an unsuccessful attempt to put out a preceding runner advancing one base. EXCEPTION: When an attempt to turn a bunt into a putout of a preceding runner fails, and in the scorer's judgment perfect play would not have put out the batter at first base, the batter shall be credited with a one base hit and not a sacrifice. (c) Do not score a sacrifice bunt when any runner is put out attempting to advance one base on a bunt. Charge the batter with a time at bat. (d) Do not score a sacrifice bunt when, in the judgment of the scorer, the batter is bunting primarily for a base hit and not for the purpose of advancing a runner or runners. Charge the batter with a time at bat. NOTE: In applying the above rule, always give the batter the benefit of the doubt. (e) Score a sacrifice fly when, before two are out, the batter hits a fly ball or a line drive handled by an outfielder or an infielder running in the outfield which (1) is caught, and a runner scores after the catch, or (2) is dropped, and a runner scores, if in the scorer's judgment the runner could have scored after the catch had the fly been caught. NOTE: Score a sacrifice fly in accordance with 10.09 (e) (2) even though another runner is forced out by reason of the batter becoming a runner.
NCAA Sacrifice
SECTION 8. A sacrifice bunt is credited to the batter when, with fewer than two outs, his bunt enables a runner to advance, provided no other runner is put out attempting to advance. A sacrifice fly is credited when, with fewer than two outs, his fly, fair or foul, enables a runner to score. In either case, the sacrifice ruling applies when the batter is put out before he reaches first base or would have been put out if the ball had been fielded without error.
Exception—If, in the judgment of the official scorer, the batter is bunting primarily for a base hit, do not score a sacrifice. Instead, charge the batter with a time at bat.
For this particular situation, those things make a lot of difference. In every rule book, if there are 2 outs, there can not be a sacrifice.
As you can see, unless I made a typo, the NFHS rule is definitely different than the OBR rule found on MLB.com, as is the NCAA rule.
All three rules pretty much say the same thing, but in very different ways. The main difference is, the HS rule doesn’t have the language in it allowing the SK to make a judgment about whether or not he thought the batter was attempting to get a base hit as opposed to a sac bunt the way OBR and NCAA allow.
quote:Originally posted by GasMe:
And of course, it is always scored a hit if, in the scorekeeper's opinion, the batter is "bunting primarily for a base hit".
Unfortunately, you might get an argument out of someone who was really a stickler and it was a HS game.
NFHS Rule 2-31-1… A sacrifice is a bunt which enables any runner to advance, or a fly ball(sacrifice fly) which enables a runner to score. In either case, the result is the batter-runner being put out before he reaches first base, or would have resulted in his being put out if the batted ball had been fielded without error, and provided 2 were not out when the ball was hit.
OBR SACRIFICES
10.09
(a) Score a sacrifice bunt when, before two are out, the batter advances one or more runners with a bunt and is put out at first base, or would have been put out except for a fielding error. (b) Score a sacrifice bunt when, before two are out, the fielders handle a bunted ball without error in an unsuccessful attempt to put out a preceding runner advancing one base. EXCEPTION: When an attempt to turn a bunt into a putout of a preceding runner fails, and in the scorer's judgment perfect play would not have put out the batter at first base, the batter shall be credited with a one base hit and not a sacrifice. (c) Do not score a sacrifice bunt when any runner is put out attempting to advance one base on a bunt. Charge the batter with a time at bat. (d) Do not score a sacrifice bunt when, in the judgment of the scorer, the batter is bunting primarily for a base hit and not for the purpose of advancing a runner or runners. Charge the batter with a time at bat. NOTE: In applying the above rule, always give the batter the benefit of the doubt. (e) Score a sacrifice fly when, before two are out, the batter hits a fly ball or a line drive handled by an outfielder or an infielder running in the outfield which (1) is caught, and a runner scores after the catch, or (2) is dropped, and a runner scores, if in the scorer's judgment the runner could have scored after the catch had the fly been caught. NOTE: Score a sacrifice fly in accordance with 10.09 (e) (2) even though another runner is forced out by reason of the batter becoming a runner.
NCAA Sacrifice
SECTION 8. A sacrifice bunt is credited to the batter when, with fewer than two outs, his bunt enables a runner to advance, provided no other runner is put out attempting to advance. A sacrifice fly is credited when, with fewer than two outs, his fly, fair or foul, enables a runner to score. In either case, the sacrifice ruling applies when the batter is put out before he reaches first base or would have been put out if the ball had been fielded without error.
Exception—If, in the judgment of the official scorer, the batter is bunting primarily for a base hit, do not score a sacrifice. Instead, charge the batter with a time at bat.