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SAT question

H HighCheese100+ posts
A quick but somewhat complicated question. Son is interested, and being contacted on the regular by some pretty high end academic schools. He also is quite dedicated to playing at a high level in college. (he is a top 200 PG player for the 10 class, so you get the picture) As we all know, they will BEND the admissions a bit to the right player, but this isnt football, and there are still standards to be met. He has been told by several schools that he will need to get X number on to SATs to be admitted. When he took it the first time, he got X minus 30 points. No biggie, hell go up over the # he needs next time, which is the first week of June. here comes the issue. BIG tourney for him that weekend, so if he attends, he will miss this go around with the SATs, and the next time is in the fall, long after schools can talk to him directly. If he skips this SAT, will schools be hesitant to offer him, waiting to make sure that his SATs come up to par for their standard? Do they want that score in place to make sure that he is squared away in the admissions dept, or is it common for a higher end academic school to have recruits that will need to take it again in the fall to meet their standard. Thanks for any experience that you all can provide.
SpiderFan, SpiderFan, Your Friendly Neighborhood SpiderFan
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TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
Tough choice

If son is good student now with solid SAT scores now there is no problem missing the test in June---but if he plays travel ball in the fall make sure he is open on that date---with our travel team we never plasy on that October weekend for SAT's thus averting conflicts plus if needed , for a fee, you can get your score sooner than normal

Personally I do not like the June date as the player is getting ready for finals at that time, at leats in our region
AM AL MA 08100+ posts
You might also check scheduled SAT's for areas close to you, if within striking distance. You can go on-line and check test dates for larger cities and other states and possibly make a date work for you.

Agree with TR in that June is a bad date. Also kids are ready to be done with school much less working for a SAT. We finish in May around here so June test usually don't work either.
B Blprkfrnks100+ posts
Well, my take is different.

If he is already on a PG top 200 list and is being sought by several colleges, and is sure that he wants to go to college rather than pro, then the SAT test is far more important than the "big tournament".

The SAT test is not offered between June 6 and the fall, no matter how big the city is. And the June test is ideal for having the most knowledge from the junior year retained. Studying for finals is perfect primer for the SAT, especially the math. Taking it after the summer would seem to be a good way to forget some of the knowledge from your junior year. Also in the Fall you will have to take care of the essays you may need to write for college applications or scholarships.

I think your real question has not been answered. Will the schools wait for your son. I have no real experience with that, but I wouldn't risk it. I would think they will start talking to others while they wait. I know of one academic school that contacts in July and tries to get them through admissions in September. No early verbals, and if all goes well, they are done in October.
M mikamom100+ posts
On the contrary, how big is the BIG tournament? Is it close to a location where the test is being offered? You can sign up for the test anywhere, it doesn't have to be just at your local school.

My kids have found that at the end of the year they are actually more in tune to the test. The information is fresh and they are in a "test" mode.


I would take it now and try to get the score up. If it doesn't happen, take the course and retake the test in the fall. The courses are expensive!
You may not need it if you can increase the score now!

Meeting the score requirement now takes the pressure off that part of the process.
cheapseatscheapseats1,000+ posts
Our experience in dealing with high end schools (Ivys) was that they did bend for athletes, however, the admissions office wanted your application in by early decision dates (usually Nov.1st) so he really, really, really needs to get that best score in June. By the time you wait till September, he will be "off" the academic schools radar if he does not have THE score they are looking for because there will be other top kids that have the numbers, they may not be top 200 talent but they have to be able to get them by admissions so at that point a less talented kid could be a better recruit for them IF they have better test scores/grades. Different schools do it differently (some have to have a certain academic level for each player, other schools have to have an average test score/gpa for their recruits (i.e. one could be on the high end and one could be on the low end, they just have to even out.)

I would look into having him take the June SAT test in a location close to the big tournament, even if that is at an unfamiliar out of town school. He would probably miss only one game (if any) in the big tournament.

Also, be sure he takes 2 or 3 subject tests too (in September if he did not take them in May) as they are required for all Ivy's and many of the top schools. MIT requires the science subject test.

P.S. from everything I have read, Stanford and Duke do not bend on admissions requirements for athletes. There are probably other really high end schools that do not bend so if they are looking at him then he needs to get the target score in June or he will be off their radar no matter how good he is.
Last edited by cheapseats
jemazjemaz1,000+ posts
Stanford and Duke both bend on admission requirements for athletes -- but the bending is inverse to athletic talent.

I'd take the SAT and not worry about the tournament. Just make sure he is confident going in of gettting a better score. It is usually -- but not always -- the case. Also, the Stanford coaches strongly encourage prospects to take the ACT, which is viewed by many to be a bit easier to get a better score.
Last edited by jemaz
PU Pop Up Hitter dad1,000+ posts
Here is something to consider, our son did not do very well on SAT, I wanted him to retake test, but I decided against it because he never prepared for the first one. He did not take this important part of the college process seriously, it impacted his social life. Now even going to JUCO, he has to take a college placement test ($15) to see what pre-college classes he has to take in order to qualify to take college level classes. He was too much of a jock to take HS seriously and now most likely we will have to pay for him to retake HS level English and Math. He has not matured (mentally) one bit since his Freshman year.
I encourage doing the SAT as many times as possible if your son is motivated enough to improve.
fanofgamefanofgame5,000+ posts
PUHD,

If he has to take classes just to qualify for college classes, it will be difficult to get out of a JC in two years. Unless he is a qualifier he will nedd 60 units to transfer.
You might need to have him sit down with a counselor to go over all of this. I would take those classesthis summer, so he is not behind. Once the season gets going its tough to keep the academics up even for the very good students.
I was hoping things had improved for you guys, but you still seem frustrted with your son. I hope all goes well in the fall for him and for you. If he messes up in college and doesnt get his credits he wont be able to play.
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
PUHD

I know that the horse is out of the barn but as a parent I ask you this:

01-- how did the academic situation get to this stage, especially with what you say about him not maturing since his freshman year in HS. It seems you were well aware of his weakness before now.

02-- as a parent it also disturbs me to see a parent come on a site like this and basically degrade the son in a public forum.
What is it like in the home ? Is the boy beat up verbally in the home as well?

03-- as for the statement about your sons motivation for the SAT that truly befuddles me----there is more here than what meets the eye--

I am certainly not the most brilliant or best parent on the earth but in our house we found ways to motivate. First we made sure that the HS worked with us. As a parent I knew everything that went on inside the classroom and school halls---The school had my office number and all my kids knew that as a fact--we had our grade requirements which were more stringent that the schools---the school permitted two "D" grades to remain eligible in any sport---our household permitted ZERO "D" grades--- "A" grades were not demanded as I knew what his capabilities in the classroom were---I didn't ask for what I knew he could not produce---"C" and "B" grades would suffice

Another question---if he has to retake HS Math and English how can a JUCO or any other school accept him for school ?---will he have a HS degree?

It is also disturbing that you seem to put dollar signs on everything---what you spend is your business not ours

Deep inside I feel that perhaps a lot of the problem here is not the players but lies with you as the parent---it doesn't make a you a bad parent but perhaps all the blame does not belong on your sons shoulders where you seem to want to place it


Just an old parents thoughts
Last edited by TRhit
H HighCheese100+ posts
Thanks for all the replys. With son, the motivation is not an issue. Like TR said, school has one standard, we as parents have quite another. This is a public HS here, not Harvard for petes sake. Are A's expected? To some degree, yes. What is absolutely not allowed is anything less than a C+. We are very hands off in this. Do what you need to do to make it happen, and at the end of term, we will let you know exactly how much freedom you have, and because of his academics, he has a lot of freedom now. I refuse to harp on a 16-17 YO. With a clear set of expectations, the freedom to get to those goals however he sees fit, and enforcement of those rules, he has NEVER missed making the Honor Roll, and has a very healthy GPA. If he doesnt know what is expected by now and how to get there, he should learn that the cans go on the bottom, bread on top if you get my drift. As far as the first issue, he did well enough SAT-wise, just needs to bump it up a little for those really top teir schools. As of now, it looks like he, (and I) will just have to miss a weekend of BB. Like I told him, if he had got it right the first time, we wouldn't be having this to deal with anyway, and he owes me a weekend of yard work to cover the $ that the second test is costing. To us, nothing like learning the value of doing things right the first time, and the value of a buck also. I may come across as a harda**, but welcome to the real world, its a harda** kind of place.
C CaBB1,000+ posts
Highcheese- you've gotten really valuable advice here from the most experienced posters. More food for thought.......... if he has to work really really hard to get the SAT score up there:

1. Will this school really be an academic fit for him?? If the average SAT scores are a certain level than most of the students with those scores are used to that level of teaching and comprehension.

2. playing a sport puts so much academic pressure on the student. Will he be able to be successful at this level of academics??

You can google the common data set of most colleges. This will tell you the average SAT scores/gpa of entering freshman. This is a great tool to try to figure out where your son will fit academically in each college.

Just more things to consider. Good luck.
H HighCheese100+ posts
Thanks again guys and gals. He only missed the target score by 30 points, so its not like he is out of his league, but I certainly understand your point, CABB. Are these schools that he would get into without baseball? Probably not, however, baseball opens doors, and there is no reason not to take advantage. Dont forget, this is not basketball here, youve got to be at least close academically, so they are not too far out of range either. Taking the test at the tourney is not an option for a whole host of reasons. Thanks again for all the answers. Sounds like the schools want that score in place to make sure that all the ducks are in a row, so thats where the priority has to be, I guess.
PU Pop Up Hitter dad1,000+ posts
TRHIT
quote:
PUHD

I know that the horse is out of the barn but as a parent I ask you this:

01-- how did the academic situation get to this stage, especially with what you say about him not maturing since his freshman year in HS. It seems you were well aware of his weakness before now.

TR, been aware since middle school when son told me grades don't count. I explained they do in HS, he said he understood. I have tried to beg, bribe you name it to get him to keep his grades up. Nothing has worked. You see what I take away, his mother returns in spades. A divided household with son.


02-- as a parent it also disturbs me to see a parent come on a site like this and basically degrade the son in a public forum.
What is it like in the home ? Is the boy beat up verbally in the home as well?

If I named said son's real name, I could understand where you are coming from. The reason most of us have screen names are not so much to protect ourselves but our sons. As far as the home life, its more the other way around. I try to inquire, ask him whats going on and I get treated like an annoyance. In many ways things have not gone his way and I'm the first person to speak up and say its not right. Yes I have said things to him that aren't nice, but nothing gets through.

03-- as for the statement about your sons motivation for the SAT that truly befuddles me----there is more here than what meets the eye--

Yes, there is, his play time.

I am certainly not the most brilliant or best parent on the earth but in our house we found ways to motivate. First we made sure that the HS worked with us. As a parent I knew everything that went on inside the classroom and school halls---The school had my office number and all my kids knew that as a fact--we had our grade requirements which were more stringent that the schools---the school permitted two "D" grades to remain eligible in any sport---our household permitted ZERO "D" grades--- "A" grades were not demanded as I knew what his capabilities in the classroom were---I didn't ask for what I knew he could not produce---"C" and "B" grades would suffice

I was the only parent to initiate conferences, keep track of his grades and communicate with school. His mother prefers to be the "good cop".

Another question---if he has to retake HS Math and English how can a JUCO or any other school accept him for school ?---will he have a HS degree?

I've been told he has the credits to go to JC, but he will have to take sub college classes in order to qualify for college courses/credits. Which as Fan said means summer school or he becomes a three year JC kid?

It is also disturbing that you seem to put dollar signs on everything---what you spend is your business not ours

That was for information purposes only.


Deep inside I feel that perhaps a lot of the problem here is not the players but lies with you as the parent---it doesn't make a you a bad parent but perhaps all the blame does not belong on your sons shoulders where you seem to want to place it



Okay TR, evidently my posts do not sit well with you and probably others. Its hard to know what its like to walk in one's shoes. Maybe your boys were respectful and appreciative of what they had. Mine isn't, our views are totally opposite. I thank my lucky stars I have two daughters who interact with their parents better. As a parent, I have no choice but to accept full blame for how things turned out. I spoke to a dad the other day who described how he and his son are buddies and love each other's company. I felt a bit of envy seeing that. A blessed man indeed.

I hope this explains things better for you. My reply should have mentioned only the placement test with regards to having to take sub college classes. Please excuse me for this. PUHD.
fanofgamefanofgame5,000+ posts
quote:
As a parent, I have no choice but to accept full blame for how things turned out. I spoke to a dad the other day who described how he and his son are buddies and love each other's company. I felt a bit of envy seeing that. A blessed man indeed.


PUHD,
I am sorry you and your son do not have a better relationship. I have prayed for both of you. I think you should keep trying to be the best dad you can.I know you love your son, and it is hurtful when the relationship is strained.I think harsh words make it worse, but there have been harsh words in my house with my children as well at times. I think to judge a parents parenting on a board like this is a little much.
If your son needs three years at a JC, it is not the end of the world, lots of boys do it. My main reason for my post is 15 units a semester makes 60 at the end of two years, if he has to take remedial English and math hes 6 behind already.
Maybe you should keep the intimate details of your family off the site, so that people dont judge you.And at the same time you can PM me any time if you need someone to talk to about your son and your struggles. God bless PUHD
YoungGunDadYoungGunDadHSBaseballWeb member since 2005
quote:
Originally posted by HighCheese:

As of now, it looks like he, (and I) will just have to miss a weekend of BB. Like I told him, if he had got it right the first time, we wouldn't be having this to deal with anyway, and he owes me a weekend of yard work to cover the $ that the second test is costing. To us, nothing like learning the value of doing things right the first time, and the value of a buck also. I may come across as a harda**, but welcome to the real world, its a harda** kind of place.



Cheese, you already know your answer about this dilema and the right thing to do by your response above. Just like Newcomer said above, it absolutely would set a very bad precedent for your son putting baseball before academics. Besides it's not like he doesn't have plenty more baseball during the summer to enjoy!

Good luck.
PU Pop Up Hitter dad1,000+ posts
Fan, thank you for the advice and support. I'm still not having much luck in doing PMs, not sure they get to who they are intended. I will try a PM to you as I have some questions on your son's JC experience.

I guess there's a reason why I don't make my living as a motivational speaker, hah hah!

The story has yet to end here, but the time is drawing near to a baseball ending.

TR, I'm going to try a PM to you.
R RPD100+ posts
quote:
Like I told him, if he had got it right the first time, we wouldn't be having this to deal with anyway, and he owes me a weekend of yard work to cover the $ that the second test is costing.


HighCheese: You sound like you've done a great job in raising your son. My compliments to you!

Just a thought, but you may want to re-consider your approach to the quote referenced above. The SAT is designed as an aptitude test, not an achievement test -- there's a difference. He may very well have "gotten it right the first time." His score is his score. And the fact is that a majority of kids do improve on the 2nd go-round. But that doesn't mean that they necessarily screwed up the first time.

Now as to the approach of owing you a weekend of yardwork to cover the cost ... in most cases I think that's great use of consequences. It teaches some powerful lessons. Whether or not to use that in the case of his results on an aptitude test -- you may or may not want to re-think that one.

Thanks for sharing your experiences.
H HighCheese100+ posts
RPD Thanks for the compliment. To be honest, we have a great relationship, and he is in fact a good, respectful kid, good grades, never in any trouble. Son was offered a SAT class, decided not to take it, which I should have added. The issue to us as parents is not with the result, it is with the effort placed in trying to get to that result. You do make a valid point about some kids just dont do well on these things, no reflection on academic ability, just the way it is. However, when one knows what is expected and does not take the necessary steps to get there, be ready to deal with what may or may not come next. Like I said earlier, we give son enough rope to think he is a cowboy. Upon occasion, a 16yo kid will get tangeled up in it. I am sure he will go up next time, we are only talking about a few points here, not 100-200 short, just 20-30. If you miss your # by several hundred points, sorry kid that place is just over your head. When you miss by just a little, a bit of a different story I think.
B bothsportsdad100+ posts
Just an fyi for all those looking at Ivies.. I know this straight from a coaches mouth on the women's sport side and it applies across the board

You need a 27ish on the ACT (or SAT equiv) and A's and B's in honors and AP classes... no computer app and PE loaded transcripts & no C's!

It might vary ever so slightly downward for an exceptional talent but the coach would need a 30-33ish from another recuit to offset.

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