Sobering article from the New York Times regarding the reality of scholarships.
Expectations Lose to Reality of Sports Scholarships
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So true!!!
A mom, that posts on this forum, and I have emailed all day to eachother about what a pain this whole process is.
Both players are good ballplayers and have no idea where they will be attending school next year. Very frustrating!
A mom, that posts on this forum, and I have emailed all day to eachother about what a pain this whole process is.
Both players are good ballplayers and have no idea where they will be attending school next year. Very frustrating!
Man, that last paragraph stings. If the percentage of athletes that receive scholarships is so small, just think of the number of young men and women that miss out on real quality time now and then. And it's usually because we, as parents, refuse to believe that ours isn't the second coming of Nolan Ryan. Therefore, 2 or 3 teams, 12 month's a year, skip the family vacation, skip the church camp, movies with friends; can't go to your friend's house tonight...we need to throw a bullpen. Man, I think I'll pack mine up and go camping.
It is a sobering article but if anyone is in this deal just for the scholarships then there's a fundamental need to recheck your priorities and motives. The teams, the travel, the expense, all this is family time spent in a constructive way with no one on earth I would rather spend that time with - my family. If my son ends up getting $0 in scholarship money it will still be money well spent.
maybe that's not the tone of the article but the second paragraph states that "parents sacrifice weekends and vacations." What? It's not a sacrifice if it's what you want to do.
maybe that's not the tone of the article but the second paragraph states that "parents sacrifice weekends and vacations." What? It's not a sacrifice if it's what you want to do.
I think the article pointed this out, but I think academic money is much easier to come by for a student with a good academic record with baseball as an extracurricular.
A kid has to play baseball because he loves it. If he loves playing against the best, he might have to pay to play with the best. No kid should play against the best (and therefore pay more) just to get a scholarship. Like one of the parents said, and I will reiterate, what kids get out of these sports and these expenses is hopefully exponentially greater than anything they can get for just a payment. Baseball, for me and I think anyone on this board, is more than a "thing" to be bought.
I can't/don't thank my parents enough for the time and effort put in. However, with my college choice, I think I will be thanking them enough for keeping me realistic.
A kid has to play baseball because he loves it. If he loves playing against the best, he might have to pay to play with the best. No kid should play against the best (and therefore pay more) just to get a scholarship. Like one of the parents said, and I will reiterate, what kids get out of these sports and these expenses is hopefully exponentially greater than anything they can get for just a payment. Baseball, for me and I think anyone on this board, is more than a "thing" to be bought.
I can't/don't thank my parents enough for the time and effort put in. However, with my college choice, I think I will be thanking them enough for keeping me realistic.
quote:Originally posted by dadofones:
Man, that last paragraph stings. If the percentage of athletes that receive scholarships is so small, just think of the number of young men and women that miss out on real quality time now and then. And it's usually because we, as parents, refuse to believe that ours isn't the second coming of Nolan Ryan. Therefore, 2 or 3 teams, 12 month's a year, skip the family vacation, skip the church camp, movies with friends; can't go to your friend's house tonight...we need to throw a bullpen. Man, I think I'll pack mine up and go camping.
Here's my take on exactly what you've said in your last sentence:
I have a daughter that played probably 150 softball games a year at the highest level possible in HS/select softball. She played since she was 10 years old at the highest level. She received a 75% scholarship to a D-1 college.
I have a son that has played probably 100 baseball games a year at the highest level possible in HS/Select baseball. He has played since age 12 at the highest level. He has received a very nice scholarship to a D-1 college.
We went all over the country with both of them for many years, just like many, many families on this site. We also have a 10 year old son who loves baseball. I would say that he has more natural athletic talent than both his sister and brother had at 10 years old. He is left-handed to boot. My wife and I have made a commitment that we will not do the same with him that we did with them. He is playing rec ball right now and as far as we're concerned, if that's the highest level he ever plays, that will be fine by us.
Call me sensitive on this issue...
Parents of student athletes are always viewed like they are living thru Johnny or they are trying to get Johnny money for school. Parents that I have seen in youth baseball are in it for the full development of the student athlete. My son will tell you if baseball ended today that the experience, coaches and friends that he made along the way developed himself into the person he is today.
You don't see people raising ebrows to Dr.'s that are buying chemisty sets at x-mas. And spending big bucks in private institutions and tutors so they can make it into Med school. They too are just trying to give their child every opportunity in which the student is driven.
Interesting that parents of student athletes are viewed somewhat stupid, unrealistic, and not objective about Johnny's future.
Parents of student athletes are always viewed like they are living thru Johnny or they are trying to get Johnny money for school. Parents that I have seen in youth baseball are in it for the full development of the student athlete. My son will tell you if baseball ended today that the experience, coaches and friends that he made along the way developed himself into the person he is today.
You don't see people raising ebrows to Dr.'s that are buying chemisty sets at x-mas. And spending big bucks in private institutions and tutors so they can make it into Med school. They too are just trying to give their child every opportunity in which the student is driven.
Interesting that parents of student athletes are viewed somewhat stupid, unrealistic, and not objective about Johnny's future.
Paw-fect -- I agree -- excellent post. Our family loves baseball. The things we did (and do) were not for the scholarship.
I think the NY times view on sports and scholarships misses more then that the experience builds the character of the child and the family.
There are some many aspects to the baseball life teh unless a report spent a full spring hs season and a full summer select season with a family that they would never get. Things like our younger children playing freely and mostly unsupervised with the other siblings while the games are being played. The life look relationships that are built on the road, in the hotels and at the parks.
But lets not kid ourselves, The Dream - play major league baseball is still somewhere in the thoughts. If it isn't your boy than maybe it will be some one you play with or against on a regular basis. The Dream is real and it is a good dream to have. Our job is to keep everything in perspective and line-up college first and getting to that level if possible.
The next thing is are there scholarships available, if so great. The major point the article misses is that some of these athletes would never get into a major university without sports. The value of a degree from Texas or OU or you name hte major university is worth a lot more than TCJC or whatever they call it now.
I agree that the only true driver behind an athletes desire to get to the next level has to be their and their families love of the sport...and the time spent together pursuing the goal.
OP makes some good points, just this Saturday on the trip home from Austin my wife suggested that our young boys not play sports, we could buy a boat and teach them to water-ski or wake-board or maybe even play golf together as a family. I have to admit it sounded good.....so we will see in another year how we decide to lead our 5 and 7 yrs old.
Right now I love baseball the player loves it more than I do and the time we spend together as father and son or as family is great.
Yes, I hope he gets a scholarship. But if baseball gets him into a school that he might not have attended on grades alone then that counts a lot as well. Either way to see him compete on a college level will be greatness.
The article didn't mention the success that collegiate athletes experience in life as compared to the rest of the population. I don't have the facts in front of me but I have seen in life that people who played a college sport do better in their careers. So the "work" they do in college for their sport pays off in life.
There are some many aspects to the baseball life teh unless a report spent a full spring hs season and a full summer select season with a family that they would never get. Things like our younger children playing freely and mostly unsupervised with the other siblings while the games are being played. The life look relationships that are built on the road, in the hotels and at the parks.
But lets not kid ourselves, The Dream - play major league baseball is still somewhere in the thoughts. If it isn't your boy than maybe it will be some one you play with or against on a regular basis. The Dream is real and it is a good dream to have. Our job is to keep everything in perspective and line-up college first and getting to that level if possible.
The next thing is are there scholarships available, if so great. The major point the article misses is that some of these athletes would never get into a major university without sports. The value of a degree from Texas or OU or you name hte major university is worth a lot more than TCJC or whatever they call it now.
I agree that the only true driver behind an athletes desire to get to the next level has to be their and their families love of the sport...and the time spent together pursuing the goal.
OP makes some good points, just this Saturday on the trip home from Austin my wife suggested that our young boys not play sports, we could buy a boat and teach them to water-ski or wake-board or maybe even play golf together as a family. I have to admit it sounded good.....so we will see in another year how we decide to lead our 5 and 7 yrs old.
Right now I love baseball the player loves it more than I do and the time we spend together as father and son or as family is great.
Yes, I hope he gets a scholarship. But if baseball gets him into a school that he might not have attended on grades alone then that counts a lot as well. Either way to see him compete on a college level will be greatness.
The article didn't mention the success that collegiate athletes experience in life as compared to the rest of the population. I don't have the facts in front of me but I have seen in life that people who played a college sport do better in their careers. So the "work" they do in college for their sport pays off in life.
Very good points, OP and Meats Dad!
Our son played rec ball through age 14 and we are very glad we didn't start travel ball until high school. It definitely saved us lots of money and freed up our Sundays for family worship. (And it didn't seem to hurt his chances to play college ball.)
Meats Dad is right in that baseball often gives high school players opportunities to attend "reach" schools. My son was recruited by an esteemed military academy this summer and, believe you me, with his mediocre grades and test scores, there would have been NO WAY he would have received even a passing glance from the institution apart from baseball!
Our son is not a "joiner," so baseball will give him great purpose during his college years. We also believe it will continue to build his character, self-discipline, mental toughness, time management, tenacity, and ability to persevere through failure. Those traits, IMHO, are priceless.
Our son played rec ball through age 14 and we are very glad we didn't start travel ball until high school. It definitely saved us lots of money and freed up our Sundays for family worship. (And it didn't seem to hurt his chances to play college ball.)
Meats Dad is right in that baseball often gives high school players opportunities to attend "reach" schools. My son was recruited by an esteemed military academy this summer and, believe you me, with his mediocre grades and test scores, there would have been NO WAY he would have received even a passing glance from the institution apart from baseball!
Our son is not a "joiner," so baseball will give him great purpose during his college years. We also believe it will continue to build his character, self-discipline, mental toughness, time management, tenacity, and ability to persevere through failure. Those traits, IMHO, are priceless.
I've used this analogy for several years: If you sent your kid to piano lessons at the YMCA for $10.00 a lesson and the instructor pulled you off to the side and said " your son has a natural talent, you need to do more than lessons here at the Y". So you send them to a great instructor 4-5 days a week and he practices every evening, people would not have a problem with it because it is "the arts". But you do it with a sport and you are considered fanatical. My son wanted to play baseball, so we played baseball, a lot of baseball. No regrets, just TONS of memories.
quote:My son wanted to play baseball, so we played baseball, a lot of baseball. No regrets, just TONS of memories.
Fun, ain't it?
And, once you get out of high school, you do get free tickets to the game.
Don't take the free tickets at A&M, though.......
quote:You don't see people raising ebrows to Dr.'s that are buying chemisty sets at x-mas. And spending big bucks in private institutions and tutors so they can make it into Med school. They too are just trying to give their child every opportunity in which the student is driven.
Interesting that parents of student athletes are viewed somewhat stupid, unrealistic, and not objective about Johnny's future.
Sorry but many baseball parents are unrealistic and not objective about their son's future. AND as Forrest Gump so accurately stated ---- "Stupid is as stupid does".
This chemistry analogy is not a good analogy unless you have a chemistry academy in your town and you know hundreds of kids that spend all summer mixing chemicals with other wanna be chemist not to mention spending tons attending the Perfect Chemistry organization starting when they are 12. I've never been into chemicals but I would venture to say there are many more chemist than MLB players. Of course with Barry and Roger making headlines there may be a few more chemistry sets in the bat bags than we are aware of. Parent will always defend their action when it comes to the way they treat (or mistreat) their kids. Just today I saw a mother on Good Morning America defend her actions of using a high pressure car wash on her young child --- caught on video.
Fungo
Fungo,
Perhaps the chemistry example isn't perfect, but, to borrow Robert S.'s example, how many pianists play at the Boston Symphony Orchestra?
I don't think anyone here is trying to justify anything they have done with their kids. We are on a HS baseball site, so naturally that is the activity of choice for the kids of these parents.
Who is to say that playing summer baseball and traveling to tournaments is taking anything away from our kids childhood?
My son goes fishing almost every weekend and some week nights....that is something he truly enjoys as well. He goes with his church youth group snow skiing every winter. He chases girls, he plays Guitar Hero, he mows the yard, he umpires 9U through 12U on weekends in the spring, he goes to Lake Texoma, etc.
He loves his summer ball schedule because he likes the top quality of play. He does in the other activities because he wants to. We have never said anything about scholarships in baseball, we only discuss if he wants to play in college and where he might like to go.
Most of these articles are written by liberal media outlets that assume that something is wrong EVERYWHERE because there is one kid SOMEWHERE who was made to do some activity by his overbearing parents so he/she could get a scholarship, so all sports parents get painted with a broad stroke.
I truly believe his baseball schedule as kept him busy enough that I haven't had to worry about the other elements that can drag HS kids to darker activities, such as drugs, drinking and ***.
This is just one chunky, middle-aged, bald guy's opinion, though.
Perhaps the chemistry example isn't perfect, but, to borrow Robert S.'s example, how many pianists play at the Boston Symphony Orchestra?
I don't think anyone here is trying to justify anything they have done with their kids. We are on a HS baseball site, so naturally that is the activity of choice for the kids of these parents.
Who is to say that playing summer baseball and traveling to tournaments is taking anything away from our kids childhood?
My son goes fishing almost every weekend and some week nights....that is something he truly enjoys as well. He goes with his church youth group snow skiing every winter. He chases girls, he plays Guitar Hero, he mows the yard, he umpires 9U through 12U on weekends in the spring, he goes to Lake Texoma, etc.
He loves his summer ball schedule because he likes the top quality of play. He does in the other activities because he wants to. We have never said anything about scholarships in baseball, we only discuss if he wants to play in college and where he might like to go.
Most of these articles are written by liberal media outlets that assume that something is wrong EVERYWHERE because there is one kid SOMEWHERE who was made to do some activity by his overbearing parents so he/she could get a scholarship, so all sports parents get painted with a broad stroke.
I truly believe his baseball schedule as kept him busy enough that I haven't had to worry about the other elements that can drag HS kids to darker activities, such as drugs, drinking and ***.
This is just one chunky, middle-aged, bald guy's opinion, though.
AMEN brother Tychco!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You are my new hero, well put son!
Great post tychco -- and good to see you're dealing with the self-esteem issues. 
I don't recall ever loading a reluctant ball player into my car for the trip to a game or tournament -- perhaps a reluctant wife on occasion.
I don't recall ever loading a reluctant ball player into my car for the trip to a game or tournament -- perhaps a reluctant wife on occasion.
I can honestly say there are a lot of things we would do differently concerning our son and baseball if we had to. Being our first born we made lots of mistakes. But I wouldn't trade any of it for the world.
Robert found his best friend at the "Y Classic" in an opposing coach. Our son has some life long friends that he has played ball with and against since he was 9. Our house and pool have been filled with boys, laughter, dirt, food and the best memories of our life. We watched our son stand by and support a team mate when his mother died. More stories than you would want to hear...unless of course they involve L. McCartney or D. Bruce (those are the best stories!)One of Roberts former players actually calls him and gets advice about life from him (I know scary thought).
Even if he wasn't going to play ball in college it was never a sacrifice. We call it life. And what a ride it has been.
There's nothing quite like the smell of the fresh cut grass and the ping of that ball!
Robert found his best friend at the "Y Classic" in an opposing coach. Our son has some life long friends that he has played ball with and against since he was 9. Our house and pool have been filled with boys, laughter, dirt, food and the best memories of our life. We watched our son stand by and support a team mate when his mother died. More stories than you would want to hear...unless of course they involve L. McCartney or D. Bruce (those are the best stories!)One of Roberts former players actually calls him and gets advice about life from him (I know scary thought).
Even if he wasn't going to play ball in college it was never a sacrifice. We call it life. And what a ride it has been.
There's nothing quite like the smell of the fresh cut grass and the ping of that ball!
Sandy, I understand your husband would have great advice on flipping houses.
Fungo:
About my analogy....
Simply put our sons father played pro baseball and we feel many ebrows are raised ....for all the money and time put into this sport. We have another son who has zero interest in the sport at age 13. He has many different interest. We spend alot of time and money in those areas too.
Many sons follow in their fathers, mothers careers...Doctors, Lawyers, Teachers, Pastors or in a family business and people say "Isn't that great". A kid wants to pursue college baseball and it must be his overbearing, non objective athletic parent pushing him.
My father played pro baseball too....I went on to play college tennis...parents of student athletes were not view then as the morons they are today.
Where would professional baseball be today if everyone said the odds are so against ever making it so don't even try. Talk with some Dominicans about the odds they are overcoming trying to go to another country to play. I can tell you the Dominican press and public regards of parents of student athletes are very diffent.
You have obviously had a diffent experience than us.
The teams (2 in 9 years) we have been part of have had outstanding parents. Tychco family being at the top of the list.
About my analogy....
Simply put our sons father played pro baseball and we feel many ebrows are raised ....for all the money and time put into this sport. We have another son who has zero interest in the sport at age 13. He has many different interest. We spend alot of time and money in those areas too.
Many sons follow in their fathers, mothers careers...Doctors, Lawyers, Teachers, Pastors or in a family business and people say "Isn't that great". A kid wants to pursue college baseball and it must be his overbearing, non objective athletic parent pushing him.
My father played pro baseball too....I went on to play college tennis...parents of student athletes were not view then as the morons they are today.
Where would professional baseball be today if everyone said the odds are so against ever making it so don't even try. Talk with some Dominicans about the odds they are overcoming trying to go to another country to play. I can tell you the Dominican press and public regards of parents of student athletes are very diffent.
You have obviously had a diffent experience than us.
The teams (2 in 9 years) we have been part of have had outstanding parents. Tychco family being at the top of the list.
Sitting back, having read the article and the subsequent banter within the confines of this thread, several thoughts come to mind, specifically "forfeiting" summer vacations, and the "sacrifice" of having to actually spend time with my family participating in what we ALL love...the Great Game of Baseball! Here are but a few memories, and heaven knows there are more (some better left unsaid, right D. Bruce?)
-Squeeze play to win a game at the U11 USSSA WS (and talking about that play for 5 years!)
-Concession stand food vs Del Frisco's...no question.
-Road trips with 13 other cars, all painted in team color
-High-fiving for one of the greatest performances, and hugging for probably the worst...all in the same day!
-California Tie-breaker, CF reaching over the fence for a game saving HR, and coming back to hit one of our own.
-Breaking down in the rain, on the way to who knows where
-staying on the beach in So Cal, thinking we were "all that" and quickly humbled by the Boys of Summer
-Watching #2 run up on a fly ball, while blowing a bubble the size of his head...
-Walking into Braves Spring Stadium at Disney World for Elite 24
-29 degree games
-fog covered fields
-All the way up to #3 son plunking Big Lip in Sherman 2 weeks ago.
I am not sure what the future holds for my boys, but I would not trade these for anything in the world, and hope to make a few more in the next couple years.
This should probably be its own thread, but throw out some of your greatest memories...
-Squeeze play to win a game at the U11 USSSA WS (and talking about that play for 5 years!)
-Concession stand food vs Del Frisco's...no question.
-Road trips with 13 other cars, all painted in team color
-High-fiving for one of the greatest performances, and hugging for probably the worst...all in the same day!
-California Tie-breaker, CF reaching over the fence for a game saving HR, and coming back to hit one of our own.
-Breaking down in the rain, on the way to who knows where
-staying on the beach in So Cal, thinking we were "all that" and quickly humbled by the Boys of Summer
-Watching #2 run up on a fly ball, while blowing a bubble the size of his head...
-Walking into Braves Spring Stadium at Disney World for Elite 24
-29 degree games
-fog covered fields
-All the way up to #3 son plunking Big Lip in Sherman 2 weeks ago.
I am not sure what the future holds for my boys, but I would not trade these for anything in the world, and hope to make a few more in the next couple years.
This should probably be its own thread, but throw out some of your greatest memories...
quote:Many sons follow in their fathers, mothers careers...Doctors, Lawyers, Teachers, Pastors or in a family business and people say "Isn't that great". A kid wants to pursue college baseball and it must be his overbearing, non objective athletic parent pushing him.
I never said that nor did the article say that. Please don't make it out to be that. I felt as if the article was compassionate to the players and the parents. What I am saying is there are many great parents that have unrealistic expectations for their children and yet they continue to nourish the dream and feed the “baseball pig” when it’s obvious to others that his baseball dream is out of reach. That’s not necessarily pushing a kid because the kid is a willing participant. That’s commonly called wearing rose colored glasses. That in itself is not bad either; it can actually be fun for the parent and the player during the developing years. However it does make reality MUCH harsher when it settles in. That's what this article is about. A good example in the article is about Pat Taylor. who started playing s****r at 4, said it took him about a month to accept that his dream of playing varsity s****r on scholarship in college would not happen. He looks back fondly on his youth career but also wishes he knew at the start what he knows now about the process.
“The whole thing really is a crapshoot, but no one ever says that out loud,” he said. “On every team I played on, every single person there thought for sure that they would play in college. I thought so, too. Just by the numbers, it’s completely unrealistic.
The “bad” didn’t happen to my son nor does it happen to all parents and players. BUT it does happen and happens frequently. It’s no surprise that posters that have experienced this first hand don’t hang around to join in these discussions. It can be a tough pill to swallow. It is nothing more than a bitter end to a beautiful ride. As they say: --- enjoy the journey.
My son has played (and I have been his dad) in everything from T ball to his current professional baseball career and I have seen a lot of great parents along the way. I was a very involved parent (like most other parents) and I’ve met quite a few during the past 20 year of his baseball playing. Most enjoyable years of my life. When my son made the HS team there were parents that asked me: “Why didn’t my son make the HS team? He’s done everything your son has done.” The correct answer to that question in many cases should be: “I’m sorry but you had unrealistic expectations for your son. But you don’t say things like that. The same thing happens when he received a D-1 scholarship and again when he was drafted. It starts as young as “T” ball and continues through college and even maybe into the pro ranks. Someday when my son gets released from professional baseball (if it’s not injury related) maybe I’ll be the one looking to ask the parent of a MLB player why my son didn’t make it to the “show”. Maybe they will be honest with me and tell me I had unrealistic expectations.
Actually I do have unrealistic expectation and have from when he was pre high school ---- I had basically the same unrealistic expectation as most other parents ---- I was just one of the lucky ones and mine became a reality. I hope EVERYONE can have that same good fortune.
Fungo
"What I am saying is there are many great parents that have unrealistic expectations for their children and yet they continue to nourish the dream and feed the “baseball pig” when it’s obvious to others that his baseball dream is out of reach"
Fungo,
I played select baseball starting when i was 12 and I knew i wanted to play baseball in college. My parents probably knew that was a reach but they wouldnt dare tell me to stop trying because i wont make it. Thats absurd that you're saying thats the right thing to do. I didnt receive a scholarship, but will never regret trying. I am currently in college, not playing baseball. I am pursuing my dream and theres a fair chance that i wont reach my goal. I will do everything i can to make sure i do, and i know my parents support me all the way. They probably worry about the possibility that it doesnt work out, but im positive they would never tell me to not go for it.
Also, my intramural softball team is doing well. Clearly those summer teams and lessons were money well spent.
Fungo,
I played select baseball starting when i was 12 and I knew i wanted to play baseball in college. My parents probably knew that was a reach but they wouldnt dare tell me to stop trying because i wont make it. Thats absurd that you're saying thats the right thing to do. I didnt receive a scholarship, but will never regret trying. I am currently in college, not playing baseball. I am pursuing my dream and theres a fair chance that i wont reach my goal. I will do everything i can to make sure i do, and i know my parents support me all the way. They probably worry about the possibility that it doesnt work out, but im positive they would never tell me to not go for it.
Also, my intramural softball team is doing well. Clearly those summer teams and lessons were money well spent.
I'm glad you added this post, fungo. I've read your contributions over the years and knew some of the background. It seems to me that the expectations are unrealistic only if they never turn into reality. And I think it's possible to have realistic expectations while continuing to support "the dream". I'm not a person that lives with a backpack full of regret --- God has a plan. I found with my two older sons that most baseball players figure out their "top end" without the help of their parents (perhaps it's better off that way).
I hope your son makes it to the show -- I know you'll love most every minute of it. And please continue to share your experiences....they will benefit others.
Now, if the Big Hit himself would drop by to add his 2 cents.
I hope your son makes it to the show -- I know you'll love most every minute of it. And please continue to share your experiences....they will benefit others.
Now, if the Big Hit himself would drop by to add his 2 cents.
My perspective is probably different than most that post here in that I was a coach and GM in the select baseball world for the past fifteen years but didn’t have a son playing until recently. I hung it up with the older boys to coach my own in 6u tee ball.
Having seen so many different stories and situations over the years I am still puzzled by the manic push to play on the next best select team, play year round and pay the unbelievable costs of personal training/lessons. I’m not talking about the 17-18 year-old ranks (which are thinned out through the HS years) but rather the 8-14 year-olds who account for a massive amount of ballplayers in our area of which many, many will not play on a varsity HS team.
It’s a mindset that IMO starts with the parents at a very early age for their ballplayer. LL or local league is just not enough for their child….so they have to get him into the next best thing. Now they are playing on the select 8, 9 or 10 year-old team and traveling the state or country while playing every single weekend. The child is being pushed to an uber-competitive level and the family devotes untold finances to the pursuit while having no idea what really lies at the other end of the spectrum. Possible glory for a select very few but unrealized expectations for the vast majority.
Every family and situation is obviously different but so many get into the mindless pursuit of ‘feeding the pig’ without ever putting any thought into where it is actually headed. Therefore they will undoubtedly be disappointed at some point.
I have seen baseball in the DFW area change drastically over the last decade, especially in the type of ballplayers that play on the best select teams. As more and more adults make money off of the pursuit of these children, more of the players driving this trend tend to come from affluent families that can easily pay the required costs. The ones that are gifted but can’t afford the costs are still put on the select team but the cost is deferred onto the rest of the players. It’s a vicious cycle.
And that’s just the money side. What about parents allowing their child to be overused in the name of winning or having them play year-round through spring, summer and fall?
I've seen an incredible increase in HS arm-related injuries over the last five years after seeing few, if any, in the previous ten. IMO the harm did not occur in HS but before in their more formidable years during the big push. These injuries are just as much a part of ‘feeding the pig’ as the finances.
Until people become more educated about the processes and can comprehend that their child can be just as good, go just as far and accomplish just as much without paying thousands of dollars every year…well…the pig will continue to be fed.
Having seen so many different stories and situations over the years I am still puzzled by the manic push to play on the next best select team, play year round and pay the unbelievable costs of personal training/lessons. I’m not talking about the 17-18 year-old ranks (which are thinned out through the HS years) but rather the 8-14 year-olds who account for a massive amount of ballplayers in our area of which many, many will not play on a varsity HS team.
It’s a mindset that IMO starts with the parents at a very early age for their ballplayer. LL or local league is just not enough for their child….so they have to get him into the next best thing. Now they are playing on the select 8, 9 or 10 year-old team and traveling the state or country while playing every single weekend. The child is being pushed to an uber-competitive level and the family devotes untold finances to the pursuit while having no idea what really lies at the other end of the spectrum. Possible glory for a select very few but unrealized expectations for the vast majority.
Every family and situation is obviously different but so many get into the mindless pursuit of ‘feeding the pig’ without ever putting any thought into where it is actually headed. Therefore they will undoubtedly be disappointed at some point.
I have seen baseball in the DFW area change drastically over the last decade, especially in the type of ballplayers that play on the best select teams. As more and more adults make money off of the pursuit of these children, more of the players driving this trend tend to come from affluent families that can easily pay the required costs. The ones that are gifted but can’t afford the costs are still put on the select team but the cost is deferred onto the rest of the players. It’s a vicious cycle.
And that’s just the money side. What about parents allowing their child to be overused in the name of winning or having them play year-round through spring, summer and fall?
I've seen an incredible increase in HS arm-related injuries over the last five years after seeing few, if any, in the previous ten. IMO the harm did not occur in HS but before in their more formidable years during the big push. These injuries are just as much a part of ‘feeding the pig’ as the finances.
Until people become more educated about the processes and can comprehend that their child can be just as good, go just as far and accomplish just as much without paying thousands of dollars every year…well…the pig will continue to be fed.
GM,
It seems you have changed in the last 9 months. Were you not on the Connie Mack trip with your DBAT buddies and running some "Diary of a GM" series or something this past summer. I also seem to remember a couple of the tirades from the DBAT bench the last few years, that you were a part of.
How many of these kids and parents that you were involved with at 17 and 18 would you think didn't spend time and money on lessons, travel, etc. when they were younger?
It seems you have changed in the last 9 months. Were you not on the Connie Mack trip with your DBAT buddies and running some "Diary of a GM" series or something this past summer. I also seem to remember a couple of the tirades from the DBAT bench the last few years, that you were a part of.
How many of these kids and parents that you were involved with at 17 and 18 would you think didn't spend time and money on lessons, travel, etc. when they were younger?
quote:Originally posted by iluvgoodbaseball:
GM,
It seems you have changed in the last 9 months. Were you not on the Connie Mack trip with your DBAT buddies and running some "Diary of a GM" series or something this past summer. I also seem to remember a couple of the tirades from the DBAT bench the last few years, that you were a part of.
How many of these kids and parents that you were involved with at 17 and 18 would you think didn't spend time and money on lessons, travel, etc. when they were younger?
Lol...tirades? DBAT buddies? Put away the proverbial grinding axe my friend as I am too old for tirades, beyond baiting posts and more interested in the happenings of 6U MBI tee ball these days. Not to mention the DBAT 18 dugouts were not filled with troublemakers and, if nothing else, the fine coaches I have been associated with were far too professional for "tirades".
Changed? Yes, I have changed but that change began well before the last nine months. I have long been an outspoken proponent of youth baseball at as reasonable a cost as possible. I have even been forced to part ways with coaches that did not agree with my way of thinking along those lines. Some of those coaches went on to start select organizations that many parents of kids ages 8-18 now pay $1500-$2500 per summer to play for.
You seem to have missed my earlier point but no matter, I'm happy to clarify. Many of the kids that have played with teams I was associated with were/are exceptionally talented and would have played at the next level whether or not their parents doled out gobs of money at an early age. Those kids had already risen to the top through their HS years and the reason they played for our teams was because they were the very best players available to us at age 17 & 18. How they got to that point was absolutely of no consequence nor was how long they had been playing. To go even further, I was not interested in recruiting the kids whose folks had spent the most $$$ but rather the ones that could play exceptionally well. They were not often one and the same. Far from it.
With a few exceptions, you might be surprised to know that the majority of the best of those ballplayers certainly did not spend lots of money to get ahead in the game yet actually had their talent open doors for them along a far, far less expensive route than other less talented players. I would bet that many times there was more negotiating done prior to their joining our team than their first pro contracts.
Just as throwing good money after bad does not solidify significant ground gaining for any player....excelling at baseball through HS and select ball to play on one of the better 18U teams certainly does not guarantee a player a lucrative college scholarship opportunity. This goes to the article and the crux of my point. Although each of the players that I have been associated with at 18U had next level opportunities, many of them received only partial scholarship money....if any at all.
PS: Don't be so narrow minded, iluv. Just as black voters are not obligated to vote for Obama, nor female voters for Hillary, nor older voters for McCain.....the fact that I have been a participant in the highest level of 18U baseball does not mean that I am required to think that parents should be spending outrageous amounts of money for their child to play youth baseball.
GM,
No axe to grind here. I have a lot of respect for what the owners of DBAT do for youth baseball. AS far as tirades, I will just let that go.
I just don't agree with all of your post and found it unusual that it would come from someone who has been in the select arena for so long.
I think that there is room on both sides. There are advantages for talented kids, borderline kids, and kids who wish to improve their games in the select circuit and via lessons, etc. Many of which involve teaching of proper mechanics, repetition, mental aspects, playing with and against high competition, etc. than can be learned at a young age. I would venture to say that the vast majority of kids (obviously not all) of the kids who end up on the "elite" summer teams at 17 and 18 came thru the select circuit and spent time and money on lessons.
The real problem IMO lies with parents, their definition of select, and their inability to accurately guage the talent level of their own kids. There are hords and hords of 7-14 year old teams calling themselves "select" and parents trying to get their kids on them just to say their kids play select. The coaching is terrible, parents are yelling, and on and on. I think part of the problem lies with the success that many older talented players have had over the years and the path they took when select was really select and not just a word. These parents think that if they can keep pushing little Billy on to one select team after another that they will undoubtly have the same success. I also think that their fears of the possibility that little Billy won't make the high school team unless he plays select drives them down this road.
For those true select teams and organizations that are truly about teaching the game, helping the kids improve their games, I say they are worth every penny and are a valuable asset to youth baseball. They are still out there if you look hard enough.
For all the others, I'm with you. Also anybody out their who thinks their son will get a full baseball ride under current rules, no matter who he plays for is kidding themselves.
PS. Not as close minded as you might think.
No axe to grind here. I have a lot of respect for what the owners of DBAT do for youth baseball. AS far as tirades, I will just let that go.
I just don't agree with all of your post and found it unusual that it would come from someone who has been in the select arena for so long.
I think that there is room on both sides. There are advantages for talented kids, borderline kids, and kids who wish to improve their games in the select circuit and via lessons, etc. Many of which involve teaching of proper mechanics, repetition, mental aspects, playing with and against high competition, etc. than can be learned at a young age. I would venture to say that the vast majority of kids (obviously not all) of the kids who end up on the "elite" summer teams at 17 and 18 came thru the select circuit and spent time and money on lessons.
The real problem IMO lies with parents, their definition of select, and their inability to accurately guage the talent level of their own kids. There are hords and hords of 7-14 year old teams calling themselves "select" and parents trying to get their kids on them just to say their kids play select. The coaching is terrible, parents are yelling, and on and on. I think part of the problem lies with the success that many older talented players have had over the years and the path they took when select was really select and not just a word. These parents think that if they can keep pushing little Billy on to one select team after another that they will undoubtly have the same success. I also think that their fears of the possibility that little Billy won't make the high school team unless he plays select drives them down this road.
For those true select teams and organizations that are truly about teaching the game, helping the kids improve their games, I say they are worth every penny and are a valuable asset to youth baseball. They are still out there if you look hard enough.
For all the others, I'm with you. Also anybody out their who thinks their son will get a full baseball ride under current rules, no matter who he plays for is kidding themselves.
PS. Not as close minded as you might think.
quote:Originally posted by iluvgoodbaseball:
GM,
It seems you have changed in the last 9 months. Were you not on the Connie Mack trip with your DBAT buddies and running some "Diary of a GM" series or something this past summer. I also seem to remember a couple of the tirades from the DBAT bench the last few years, that you were a part of.
How many of these kids and parents that you were involved with at 17 and 18 would you think didn't spend time and money on lessons, travel, etc. when they were younger?
I'll add to the comments that DBAT GM has already responded and will not respond further. If you recall our roster in prior years included a numner of players from east, west texas and oklahoma just pure old country boys that loved the game of baseball. Believe me there were not a lot of lessons involved. And like John said, tirades from the bench or coaches, ...must be another team you are referring to.
Hey, I knew when my son was very young he wouldn't get a full ride, because of the reality of baseball scholarships.
What do I know? My son is on a full ride to a JUCO as we speak.
Was it worth it? Every stinking minute fighting trafic to from Keller to McKinney at 5pm.
Every stinking dollar that I had to scrape up to pay for everything from gloves, bats, lessons and summer ball.
Every long road trip, missed time from work, 114 degree afternoon at Arc Park, every cold hot dog and warm Dr. Pepper.
Every bad umpire
No, not you SWAC
Every new friend I've met over the last 15 years.
Does my son agree. You bet. It was HIS dream.
Will it take him any further? It already has, it turned him into a fine young man that knows that he isn't afraid of hard work.
What do I know? My son is on a full ride to a JUCO as we speak.
Was it worth it? Every stinking minute fighting trafic to from Keller to McKinney at 5pm.
Every stinking dollar that I had to scrape up to pay for everything from gloves, bats, lessons and summer ball.
Every long road trip, missed time from work, 114 degree afternoon at Arc Park, every cold hot dog and warm Dr. Pepper.
Every bad umpire
Every new friend I've met over the last 15 years.
Does my son agree. You bet. It was HIS dream.
Will it take him any further? It already has, it turned him into a fine young man that knows that he isn't afraid of hard work.
Keller Dad, Your son is NOT who the article is about. The player and the parent that the article applies to did the same thing as you, made all the sacrifices, bought all the gloves and bats, paid for lesson and joined travel teams. Some even played at ARC Park (I know because some were on our 14u team when we played there). They did everything our sons did but they were hit with a dose of reality after high school. Those parents no longer surf the web for baseball websites and their sons no longer play baseball. They are licking their wounds. You and I are members of one big happy family, (the HSBBW) that has many members that have succeeded in spite of the odds. 
The odds however remain the same. 
Fungo
Fungo
But Fungo,
Even if he didn't play after HS, it was worth it. Even if he didn't play in HS, to us, it was worth it.
He followed HIS dream, I just went along for the ride.
His ride may end after his Freshman year of college, who knows. It's a pyramid, with TBall at the bottom and the Hall of Fame at the top. I'm just happy my son made it towards the pointy part.
Even if he didn't play after HS, it was worth it. Even if he didn't play in HS, to us, it was worth it.
He followed HIS dream, I just went along for the ride.
His ride may end after his Freshman year of college, who knows. It's a pyramid, with TBall at the bottom and the Hall of Fame at the top. I'm just happy my son made it towards the pointy part.
Thought I would pass this article along since it touches on the subject. Out of the FW Star Telegram.
http://www.star-telegram.com/sports/columnists/jim_reeves/index.html
http://www.star-telegram.com/sports/columnists/jim_reeves/index.html
NY Times article:
1. “These congregations are diverse in spirit but unified by one gospel: heaven is your child receiving a college athletic scholarship.” – For our family Heaven is Heaven, the eternal place we look forward to going to be with our God. I do pray that I don’t let high school sports become an idol. I do enjoy the baseball families that we have become a part of and through the years.
2. “Parents sacrifice weekends and vacations to tournaments and specialty camps, spending thousands each year in this quest for the holy-grail.” – It fact because we know the numbers and reality is apparent as you see more and more kids eliminated on the way up to compare the pursuit to that of the grail is accurate. However, we value this time together as a family and if we weren’t chasing the ball player here we would be off going and doing something else that cost a lot of money because everything costs money for a family of 4.
3. “Baseball was the second-lowest men’s sport ($5,806).” – This article helped my education, I thought I knew the numbers but it is nice to have a realistic idea. But we aren’t in baseball for a scholarship, it would be nice but the goal has always been to let the ball player play ball, develop skills and relationships…to pursue excellence.
4. “They don’t know that it’s a whole new monster when you get here. Yes, all the hard work paid off. And now you have to work harder.” – This is the part that we are trying to help the ball player understand now that there is a chance he might be able to play. But the value of being a collegiate athlete is also worth the effort on very many levels.
5. “Swept up in the dizzying pursuit of sports achievement, they realize how little they knew of the process. - The math of athletic scholarships is complicated and widely misunderstood.” – This is very true but it also goes for the whole select sports process which was very unfamiliar and unfriendly coming out of 8th grade and into high school. This web site and some others have helped our family learn about both processes. To a large degree I agree with Retired GM – I wish the process didn’t cost so much but it does and that is our reality today. But we didn’t spend the money to get a scholarship. Our hope is that baseball helps the ball player get into a school with a good academic standing then we will look at the math.
6. “I can pinpoint a time when I was suddenly heavily recruited. It was after a tournament in Long Island the summer after my junior year. I scored a few goals. The Villanova coach was there, and so were some other college coaches. Within a couple of days, my in-box was full of e-mails. I’ve wondered, what would have happened if didn’t play well that day?” – Truly, the more I am around these events the more I believe to a great extent that it is a pursuit of “trying to lighting in a bottle”. In the end we rely on our understanding that if it is God’s will then it will happen if not be content in the moment and enjoy what is going on.
Ft Worth article:
1. “A player has to be able to play, he has to be able to pass and he has to be able to pay. – I won’t get into the main part of the story which is about the lack of ethnic diversity in baseball. That topic has been discussed before in its own thread and should always be worthy of a separate discussion. But this one line really adds to my understanding of the math and the pursuit of a scholarship. First the ball player has to be able to play and then he has to be able to pass and then as a parent we increase their odds if we can pay or are willing to take on debt to pay the tuition bill.
This has been one of the most enlightening and enjoyable threads to read and follow and it seems everyone is adding to the process. The NY Times article is accurate as is the FT Worth Telegram after rereading both and this thread I feel good about helping the ball player pursue his dream and I am reminded to remind the ball player that dreams come with hard work and that if God blesses him with the chance to play beyond high school that that work gets a little more serious.
Overall the experience has enriched all of our lives (my family)and I hope it gives the ball player and I a solid foundation for a life long rich relationship. But we know the realities of the scholarship thing and yes, select baseball costs a lot but most activities cost money. Every day is an adventure and a learning opportunity, today I learned about the 3 P's which will help me keep it real today.
1. “These congregations are diverse in spirit but unified by one gospel: heaven is your child receiving a college athletic scholarship.” – For our family Heaven is Heaven, the eternal place we look forward to going to be with our God. I do pray that I don’t let high school sports become an idol. I do enjoy the baseball families that we have become a part of and through the years.
2. “Parents sacrifice weekends and vacations to tournaments and specialty camps, spending thousands each year in this quest for the holy-grail.” – It fact because we know the numbers and reality is apparent as you see more and more kids eliminated on the way up to compare the pursuit to that of the grail is accurate. However, we value this time together as a family and if we weren’t chasing the ball player here we would be off going and doing something else that cost a lot of money because everything costs money for a family of 4.
3. “Baseball was the second-lowest men’s sport ($5,806).” – This article helped my education, I thought I knew the numbers but it is nice to have a realistic idea. But we aren’t in baseball for a scholarship, it would be nice but the goal has always been to let the ball player play ball, develop skills and relationships…to pursue excellence.
4. “They don’t know that it’s a whole new monster when you get here. Yes, all the hard work paid off. And now you have to work harder.” – This is the part that we are trying to help the ball player understand now that there is a chance he might be able to play. But the value of being a collegiate athlete is also worth the effort on very many levels.
5. “Swept up in the dizzying pursuit of sports achievement, they realize how little they knew of the process. - The math of athletic scholarships is complicated and widely misunderstood.” – This is very true but it also goes for the whole select sports process which was very unfamiliar and unfriendly coming out of 8th grade and into high school. This web site and some others have helped our family learn about both processes. To a large degree I agree with Retired GM – I wish the process didn’t cost so much but it does and that is our reality today. But we didn’t spend the money to get a scholarship. Our hope is that baseball helps the ball player get into a school with a good academic standing then we will look at the math.
6. “I can pinpoint a time when I was suddenly heavily recruited. It was after a tournament in Long Island the summer after my junior year. I scored a few goals. The Villanova coach was there, and so were some other college coaches. Within a couple of days, my in-box was full of e-mails. I’ve wondered, what would have happened if didn’t play well that day?” – Truly, the more I am around these events the more I believe to a great extent that it is a pursuit of “trying to lighting in a bottle”. In the end we rely on our understanding that if it is God’s will then it will happen if not be content in the moment and enjoy what is going on.
Ft Worth article:
1. “A player has to be able to play, he has to be able to pass and he has to be able to pay. – I won’t get into the main part of the story which is about the lack of ethnic diversity in baseball. That topic has been discussed before in its own thread and should always be worthy of a separate discussion. But this one line really adds to my understanding of the math and the pursuit of a scholarship. First the ball player has to be able to play and then he has to be able to pass and then as a parent we increase their odds if we can pay or are willing to take on debt to pay the tuition bill.
This has been one of the most enlightening and enjoyable threads to read and follow and it seems everyone is adding to the process. The NY Times article is accurate as is the FT Worth Telegram after rereading both and this thread I feel good about helping the ball player pursue his dream and I am reminded to remind the ball player that dreams come with hard work and that if God blesses him with the chance to play beyond high school that that work gets a little more serious.
Overall the experience has enriched all of our lives (my family)and I hope it gives the ball player and I a solid foundation for a life long rich relationship. But we know the realities of the scholarship thing and yes, select baseball costs a lot but most activities cost money. Every day is an adventure and a learning opportunity, today I learned about the 3 P's which will help me keep it real today.
Meat good analysis however you are looking at it from a situation were most of our kids have been successful and you didn't need the money.
For the thousands who weren't successful this article may take on a different light.
For the thousands who weren't successful this article may take on a different light.
I hate to even comment on this thread since there are so many different views but for us the success has already been achieved. Our goal as parents has always been for sports (baseball in this instance) to teach life lessons, teach teamwork, and build character with the hopes of keeping a busy teen away from negative influences....it has kept cheapseat son busy and focused so there was very little time to get off track with things like girls, drugs, alcohol, random trouble etc.
IMO, this was money and time well spent....
IMO, this was money and time well spent....
If they could only prohibit girls from attending the Plano schools........never mind.......thinking out loud......
Yeah, I am thinking Jesuit (all boys) is on to something....not a bad idea, right Dtiger?
I think the article Out in the Sticks referenced is right on target. And I'll even take it to another level - the best high school athletes do NOT play baseball as a whole.
Has anyone noticed the number of small, slow, and otherwise un-athletic kids that participate in baseball - at the rec level or even alot in the "select" level? Please don't mention all of the great athletes that play baseball in high school because I know that there are many, but I am saying that there are a large percentage of what I would call sub-par athletes compared to top HS football and basketball teams.
I watched the 4A and 5A Texas HS basketball championships this past weekend on Fox Sports. It was unbelievable what those kids were doing. Baseball does not attract kids of that caliber athletic wise. And this problem is filtering all the way up to the college ranks.
Why is it that U.S. high schools and colleges are supplying fewer and fewer of the players for MLB? Why is it that more and more MLB talent is coming from Latin America and now Asia? I think it is simply because of the lack of top athletes playing baseball in the U.S. at the amatuer level. And at least some of that fault lies with the paltry amount of scholarship money available at the college level.
Baseball in the U.S. is in danger of becoming an elitist game for the less athletic of our young male population.
If the NCAA would increase the scholarship alotment level equal to football and basketball, and if we can somehow get the less affluent kids interested in the game again, then I think that the quality of baseball will rapidly increase and it will help the overall strength of the game.
Has anyone noticed the number of small, slow, and otherwise un-athletic kids that participate in baseball - at the rec level or even alot in the "select" level? Please don't mention all of the great athletes that play baseball in high school because I know that there are many, but I am saying that there are a large percentage of what I would call sub-par athletes compared to top HS football and basketball teams.
I watched the 4A and 5A Texas HS basketball championships this past weekend on Fox Sports. It was unbelievable what those kids were doing. Baseball does not attract kids of that caliber athletic wise. And this problem is filtering all the way up to the college ranks.
Why is it that U.S. high schools and colleges are supplying fewer and fewer of the players for MLB? Why is it that more and more MLB talent is coming from Latin America and now Asia? I think it is simply because of the lack of top athletes playing baseball in the U.S. at the amatuer level. And at least some of that fault lies with the paltry amount of scholarship money available at the college level.
Baseball in the U.S. is in danger of becoming an elitist game for the less athletic of our young male population.
If the NCAA would increase the scholarship alotment level equal to football and basketball, and if we can somehow get the less affluent kids interested in the game again, then I think that the quality of baseball will rapidly increase and it will help the overall strength of the game.
quote:They did everything our sons did but they were hit with a dose of reality after high school. Those parents no longer surf the web for baseball websites and their sons no longer play baseball. They are licking their wounds.Fungo
Fungo was that dose of reality the pyramid gets smaller the longer you participate? You invest a tremendous amount of money in a college education but only so many graduates get the high paying positions. Sound like life in general.