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Scorekeeping question

hokieonehokieone5,000+ posts
Runners on 1b and 2b. Batter drops a bunt down between pitcher and third base, and might well have beat it out anyway with a clean play by pitcher, but pitcher picks up then drops the ball and everyone is safe.

Official scorer ruled E-1, which seems wrong to me as it hurts the batter who perfectly executed his sacrifice, and if the pitcher makes the play, it's a sac, not hurting the batter.

If it wasn't a 1b, how is this properly scored?
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T thepainguy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by hokieone:
Runners on 1b and 2b. Batter drops a bunt down between pitcher and third base, and might well have beat it out anyway with a clean play by pitcher, but pitcher picks up then drops the ball and everyone is safe.

Official scorer ruled E-1, which seems wrong to me as it hurts the batter who perfectly executed his sacrifice, and if the pitcher makes the play, it's a sac, not hurting the batter.

If it wasn't a 1b, how is this properly scored?


The official scorer must have been a pretty good player in his day. ;-)

I agree that it's been scored as a sac (IOW an infield hit). That's what it would have been ruled had the pitcher not touched the ball.

That just points out the problem with the definition of an error. You're penalized for actually trying to make a play on the ball.
FungoFungoHighly Regarded and Beloved Old Timer
If he was attempting to sacrifice it remains a sacrifice and is not charged an official at bat. (or you can score it a hit with no error if in the opinion of the scorkeeper the pitcher did not have a play).
OBR says:
(a) Score a sacrifice bunt when, before two are out, the batter advances one or more runners with a bunt and is put out at first base, or would have been put out except for a fielding error, unless, in the judgment of the official scorer, the batter was bunting exclusively for a base hit and not sacrificing his own chance of reaching first base for the purpose of advancing a runner or runners, in which case the official scorer shall charge the batter with a time at bat
Last edited by Fungo
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TripleDad:
As a coach, If I called for the sac with runners 1b, 2b and he bunted left side I might have a few choice words for the kid. just MHO
Great question though!


Sorry to get off topic but may I ask why you would get onto a kid for this? I am assuming when you mention left side you are talking about third base side.

In this situation most defenses will have the third baseman stay at third for the force play. Have the pitcher cover third side and first cheat and charge. If you go to first base side then the first baseman has a chance to get there and throw to third to get the force play. By putting the ball down the third base side now the third baseman has to make a decision - see if the pitcher can make the play (hope to go to first) or if he has to charge to make the play on a hard hit bunt.

Granted you can have the third baseman charge with the shortstop covering third for the force but by doing that you are taking a chance the shortstop not getting there in time.

Let me just finish with it really comes down to what you prefer to do as a coach and what you practice.

I'm not trying to start a hostile discussion but I would like to know what your meaning is.
R Roll-it-up100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by hokieone:
Runners on 1b and 2b. Batter drops a bunt down between pitcher and third base, and might well have beat it out anyway with a clean play by pitcher, but pitcher picks up then drops the ball and everyone is safe.


I would have scored it a hit. From the way it was described, the intent seemed to be a sac but it must have been a good bunt because it was indicated the the batter might have been safe with a clean play. If the batter had been thrown out it would have been a sac.

Now had the bunt been a bad bunt and the pitcher could easily made the play but dropped the ball, then it would have been scored an error.
FungoFungoHighly Regarded and Beloved Old Timer
quote:
Now had the bunt been a bad bunt and the pitcher could easily made the play but dropped the ball, then it would have been scored an error.


Roll-it-up,
What about the batter, are you going to charge him with an AB?

IMO the ONLY way you can charge the batter with an official at bat is to give him a hit.

You can charge an error to the pitcher for failing to get an out but you still have to give the sac to the hitter (no official at bat).

Your description of a "bad" bunt is misleading. A pitcher can "make the play" on a good bunt too. That is the purpose of the sacrifice bunt.

I think in Hokieone's first post it was understood that the runner(s) would have advanced no matter what happened with the pitcher and the batter therefore the sacb was executed properly. The E-1 (or no E-1) is a non factor as far as the batter and the sacb are concerned.
T TripleDad500+ posts
coach 2709:
We will keep it civil!

You are right, third will stay home cuz SS should be at double play depth. Pitcher will have left side coverage. If the bunt is to the left side and the pitcher fields it he has a good chance to make that play at 3b. If the bunt is right side the pitcher has very little chance at a play 3b. In fact, he won't even try. He goes 1b all the way.
Remember a sacrifice is just that. Go get an out and move that runner, period!
Consider this, maybe the coach told him to bunt left side to potentially get a hit.
Situation: Coach has a lead late in the game, pitcher is starting to get rattled, man on 1b, greased lightning on 2b. Guy at the plate hasn't hit a ball in two weeks. Maybe be a nice time to lay one down to third. A big maybe though!
From the scorekeepers perspective, I honestly do not know. I just threw that "bunting for a hit" out there cuz it was left side. Maybe that is why the scorekeeper scored it that way.

Regardless of the intent, if the guy lays down a bunt and runners advance I don't see how you charge him an AB unless he is safe cleanly.
W windmill100+ posts
Scorekeeper may have read that batter was bunting for a hit, vs. squaring up and sacificing - kinda harsh either way.

Similar thing in the Phillies vs Giants the other night. Man on 3rd, Howard hits a lon gfly ball to left. Big Head dropped the ball, runb scored, Howard hustled into 2nd. SCORING: Sac Fly, RBI, no official AB, E7
R Roll-it-up100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Fungo:
[QUOTE]Now had the bunt been a bad bunt and the pitcher could easily made the play but dropped the ball, then it would have been scored an error.


Roll-it-up,
What about the batter, are you going to charge him with an AB?

IMO the ONLY way you can charge the batter with an official at bat is to give him a hit.

You can charge an error to the pitcher for failing to get an out but you still have to give the sac to the hitter (no official at bat).

Your description of a "bad" bunt is misleading. QUOTE]

You're right Fungo, strike that last statement...my bad.
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TripleDad:
coach 2709:
We will keep it civil!

You are right, third will stay home cuz SS should be at double play depth. Pitcher will have left side coverage. If the bunt is to the left side and the pitcher fields it he has a good chance to make that play at 3b. If the bunt is right side the pitcher has very little chance at a play 3b. In fact, he won't even try. He goes 1b all the way.
Remember a sacrifice is just that. Go get an out and move that runner, period!
Consider this, maybe the coach told him to bunt left side to potentially get a hit.
Situation: Coach has a lead late in the game, pitcher is starting to get rattled, man on 1b, greased lightning on 2b. Guy at the plate hasn't hit a ball in two weeks. Maybe be a nice time to lay one down to third. A big maybe though!
From the scorekeepers perspective, I honestly do not know. I just threw that "bunting for a hit" out there cuz it was left side. Maybe that is why the scorekeeper scored it that way.

Regardless of the intent, if the guy lays down a bunt and runners advance I don't see how you charge him an AB unless he is safe cleanly.


Glad to keep it civil. I think what we really have here is a preference situation. From what you put you are assuming the pitcher will make the play from a defensive standpoint. I am looking at it from an offensive standpoint. If my guy bunts to the left side (third base side) he better not get it near the pitcher to have a play at third. It better be closer (not on but closer) to the line.

I am also assuming a hard bunt up the right base side and the first baseman has a chance to make the play at third - seen it happen many times.

I believe for the bunt coverages part it comes down to what you practice.

As for the situation originally posted - I say go with the hit. It's not a typical situation so why punish the hitter just because you can. I believe it's in the grey area of judgment rule in favor of helping the player (of course this hurts the pitcher and his stats but I like offense more)
hokieonehokieone5,000+ posts
Thanks all. I'm printing this out for the scorekeeper. The situation was even tougher as my son was the batter, and I was in the press box observing and learning the software program to operate the electronic scorebook for future games. I was asked what I thought but said I really couldn't comment as my son was the batter that dropped down the bunt.

(I really wanted to say it was a hit but discretion prevailed. Sometimes you just gotta stay silent.)
T TripleDad500+ posts
Coach2709:
My reference in this bunt situation is very general.
In most cases, generally, a sacrifice would be to the right side. That said, an argument could be made to go to the left side based upon the following variables. RHP or LHP...Lefty or Righty at 1st...The score and inning....The speed of R2...
Lefty or Righty at the plate....And is the defense playing for the double play or are they playing bunt all the way.
A good coach will simulate all of that info and make a quick decision, as for me, I would have to sleep on it!

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