Scoring question

Rick,

Welcome to HSBBW. The short answer to your question is that the umpire ruled incorrectly.

It's a force at first base -- period. The fact that the defensive player opted to tag the batter/runner doesn't change that fact. And because it's a force, the timing has nothing to do with it. So the run does not count.

I'm guessing this was a youth-league game?

Thanks for posting!

That is some bad umpiring! That is as bad as the gut who hits the pop-up and skys it straight up while two runs score before coming down and being caught for the third out and the umpire saying the two runs count! The ball that is hit has to be a nonforce play in order for any run to score. An example would be this- Batter hits an infield ball and beats out the run to first but in his haste he starts to second thinking the ball got by only the first baseman then tags him out- a nonforce out. If there was a runner on third and he scores before the runner rounding first gets tagged in the nonforce play then the run scores iregardless if it was the third out.

Forgive me for nitpicking - the batter/runner is NEVER forced at 1st base. Other runners may be forced by the B/R.

The ruling was still incorrect, but the run doesn't score because the 3rd out was made by the B/R before he reached 1st base. It has nothing to do with being forced.

Dash,

Thanks for the clarification. Your posts are always helpful and enlightening.

While we all agree that in this case the correct ruling is more significant than the language that supports the ruling, this may be one of those cases where the language used in the rulebook is not 100% consistent.

Your point is supported by 4.09: "HOW A TEAM SCORES. (a) ... EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter runner before he touches first base; (2) by any runner being forced out;..."

However, in 2.00 (Double Play), it specifically states that when the batter hits a ground ball, it IS a force at first base.

Agreed, this was not a DP situation, but that wouldn't bear on the issue.

Just wanted to pass that along.

I can see your point RPD, but I think they just butchered the language in 2.00. If the batter was "forced" at 1st, you wouldn't need 4.09(a)(1) that you cited above - 4.09(a)(2) would cover it all. The "forcing" is always done by the batter/runner.

It has been said many times that the guys that wrote the rules were not grammar experts. In the OBR it says it is a balk if you feint to first without completing the throw. Feint by definition means you didn't complete the throw.

You guys are an incredible resource. You know how great it is to be able to get answers to these kind of questions? Stuff like this comes up all the time among parent/fans watching our boys games. It is really nice to know where to go and get quick, reliable answers, complete with citations!

Thanks!

Dash & Michael -- I agree with you completely. I sometimes forget it's an imperfect document. Pretty dang good, but not perfect.

I"m just a scorekeeper -- you guys are the real deal. Thanks for guiding our course the way you do.