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25 replies

scoring/earned runs

obradyobrady500+ posts
Ok help me with this one; high school varsity game;

B1 - K
B2 - K - reaches on wild pitch
B3 - 1b - r1 advances to 2nd
B4 - BB - bases loaded
B5 - 1b - runner on 3rd scores - bases still loaded

catcher attempts to pick off runner on first, wild throw runners on 2 & 3 score runner on 1st advances to 3

B6 - BB - runners on 1 & 3
B7 - 3u - runner on 3 scores, runner on 1 advances to 2
B8 - K

Summary 4 runs score.

How many were earned?
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F FloridaHokie100+ posts
Not sure if I agree with OBrady. I need some clarification...

A batter reaching first on strike three is scored as a "dropped third strike" no matter where the pitch is thrown. Isn't this scored K-E2?

As the father of a catcher, I've never liked that understanding, but then there are many things about scoring that are not necessarily fair. Just as I believe the catcher should not be vilified for a curve-in-the-dirt-swing-and-miss-strike-three, I also don't understand why the catcher is credited with a put out on a strike out.

Somebody help me out here... Is a dropped-third-strike always scored E2, or is it dependant on the pitch?
obradyobrady500+ posts
Rule 10.14

No error shall be charged when a wild pitch or passed ball is scored. (1) No error shall be charged when the batter is awarded first base on four called balls or because he was touched by a pitched ball, or when he reaches first base as the result of a wild pitch or passed ball.

So I don't see the rules calling it an error on anyone, now a pass ball would be different, then the catcher made a mistake. "I" also score a ball in the dirt a wild pitch if it gets away from the catcher. The catcher maybe should have stopped it but you can't be absolutely sure about it.

SO based on the K not being an error, I see that:

1 out
B2 scores on a hit by B5 - ER
B3 scores on B5 - ER
B4 scores on FC - ER

so 3 ER
DO Dear old Dad100+ posts
One earned run . The 1st run is earned. Batter#2 reached on the pitchers error so he is a potential earned run. When the catcher threw the ball away the 2 runs that scored were both unearned. On the throwing error the runner on 1st went to 3rd. He then scored on a putout by the 1st baseman. If the catcher had not allowed him to reach 3rd base he would not have been able to score on that putout. So, one earned run.

The catcher's error let in 2 unearned runs. A hit after the fact doesn't change that. So there is no way there can be 3 or 4 earned runs. The catcher's error also allowed another runner to get in scoring position on the putout to 1st base.
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
O'Brady has it exactly right. 3 ER in this situation.

The distinction between scoring a WP or a PB is that the PB is treated like an error and thus, had it been a PB, there would've been fewer ER's because you would reconstruct the inning as if there had been an out recorded on that batter.

A WP is the pitcher's fault in his capacity as a pitcher, and thus he is charged with the runs caused as earned runs.

This is distinguished from mistakes made by the pitcher in his capacity as a fielder, where his errors are treated the same as anyone else's errors. That is, a pitcher's error could still lead to unearned runs.
obradyobrady500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Dear old Dad:
One earned run . The 1st run is earned. Batter#2 reached on the pitchers error so he is a potential earned run. When the catcher threw the ball away the 2 runs that scored were both unearned. On the throwing error the runner on 1st went to 3rd. He then scored on a putout by the 1st baseman. If the catcher had not allowed him to reach 3rd base he would not have been able to score on that putout. So, one earned run.

The catcher's error let in 2 unearned runs. A hit after the fact doesn't change that. So there is no way there can be 3 or 4 earned runs. The catcher's error also allowed another runner to get in scoring position on the putout to 1st base.


In my understanding, you recontruct the inning as though the catcher's error didn't occur, that's how I come up with 3 Earned runs
H Hakko93610+ posts
I am terrible at doing earned and unearned runs, but I do have a question that maybe you guys can clear up for me.

B2 struck out but reached on the uncaught third strike. How is this not an error on the catcher? I always approached this as if the pitch was good enough to swing at or good enough to be called, the catcher should handle it.

I just don't see how you can charge a pitcher with the WP on strike three. Hopefully someone more knowledgable than me can rationalize this for me.
obradyobrady500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Hakko936:
I am terrible at doing earned and unearned runs, but I do have a question that maybe you guys can clear up for me.

B2 struck out but reached on the uncaught third strike. How is this not an error on the catcher? I always approached this as if the pitch was good enough to swing at or good enough to be called, the catcher should handle it.

I just don't see how you can charge a pitcher with the WP on strike three. Hopefully someone more knowledgable than me can rationalize this for me.


Simple, the rules say it isn't an error.

Somewhere along the line that's how someone defined it.

http://www.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/official_info/official_rules/foreword.jsp
FungoFungoHighly Regarded and Beloved Old Timer
quote:
B1 - K
B2 - K - reaches on wild pitch
B3 - 1b - r1 advances to 2nd
B4 - BB - bases loaded
B5 - 1b - runner on 3rd scores - bases still loaded

catcher attempts to pick off runner on first, wild throw runners on 2 & 3 score runner on 1st advances to 3

B6 - BB - runners on 1 & 3
B7 - 3u - runner on 3 scores, runner on 1 advances to 2
B8 - K


No cut and dry answer because of the B7 situation.
(B2) ---Pitcher is held accountable for the runner (B2) because it was ruled a WP not a passed ball. No error. He gets the K but B2 is a potential ER with 1 out.

B3---Potential ER because of a safe hit

B4---BB bases loaded all potential ER no errors so far.

E-2 allows two runs to score (B2 and B3) because of a errant pick off….At this time they are unearned unless later in the inning the offense does something that would have scored those two runs….let’s play it on out.

B5---singles, that would have scored the first runner (B2) so B-2 becomes an Earned Run. and B3 would advance to 3b.
And bases would be loaded with B3, B4, and B5. with 1 out.

B6---Walks which would have forced B3 home (second earned run)

B7---would have to see the play---- the first base unassisted out could have gotten the force at home because the bases would have been loaded (remember the pitcher gets the benefit of the doubt here.) so at this point I say 2 outs 2 earned runs.
B8----strikes out to end the inning ---- sounds like 2 earned runs ----- possible 3.
Fungo
06catcherdad06catcherdad1,000+ posts
As usual, it is very hard to argue with Fungo's analysis. I was hoping you'd post on this one, and definitely understand your interpretation, and can't disagree with it.

Thanks for your insight, as always.

Hakko, it is easy to have a wild pitch 3rd strike. Batter swings at a pitch in the dirt, batter swings at pitch over his head. In either case it is a wild pitch as catcher would have had to use more than normal effort to make the play.
obradyobrady500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Fungo:
quote:
B1 - K
B2 - K - reaches on wild pitch
B3 - 1b - r1 advances to 2nd
B4 - BB - bases loaded
B5 - 1b - runner on 3rd scores - bases still loaded

catcher attempts to pick off runner on first, wild throw runners on 2 & 3 score runner on 1st advances to 3

B6 - BB - runners on 1 & 3
B7 - 3u - runner on 3 scores, runner on 1 advances to 2
B8 - K


No cut and dry answer because of the B7 situation.
(B2) ---Pitcher is held accountable for the runner (B2) because it was ruled a WP not a passed ball. No error. He gets the K but B2 is a potential ER with 1 out.

B3---Potential ER because of a safe hit

B4---BB bases loaded all potential ER no errors so far.

E-2 allows two runs to score (B2 and B3) because of a errant pick off….At this time they are unearned unless later in the inning the offense does something that would have scored those two runs….let’s play it on out.

B5---singles, that would have scored the first runner (B2) so B-2 becomes an Earned Run. and B3 would advance to 3b.
And bases would be loaded with B3, B4, and B5. with 1 out.

B6---Walks which would have forced B3 home (second earned run)

B7---would have to see the play---- the first base unassisted out could have gotten the force at home because the bases would have been loaded (remember the pitcher gets the benefit of the doubt here.) so at this point I say 2 outs 2 earned runs.
B8----strikes out to end the inning ---- sounds like 2 earned runs ----- possible 3.
Fungo


Runners at 1 & 3 at the time the first baseman fields the ball,looks at the runner, has to move 6 to 8 feet to tag first, throws home but not in time, earned run 3
C Colo05Dad100+ posts
Fungo is on the right track. One more piece to the puzzle. The scorer would have to make the judgment on the errant pick-off attempt by the catcher. If the throw was not errant--was it in time to get the runner out? If the throw would have gotten the runner out--then 1 earned run, because when you play out the inning that way--only one run would have scored. If the throw was not in time--3 earned runs, because playing out the inning results in 3 runs--as Fungo points out.
H Hakko93610+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by obrady:
Simple, the rules say it isn't an error.

Somewhere along the line that's how someone defined it.

http://www.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/official_info/official_rules/foreword.jsp


Yep, that is the way the rule reads. It is not an error if it is a WP or a PB. So what it boils down to is any pitch that the catcher doesn't handle is either a WP or PB. It seems that it is never an E2.

Hmm, I learned something today. I have been doing it wrong for years.
TCB1TCB1500+ posts
I agree with Fungo...I don't think it would be 3 earned runs. Reconstruct the inning without the errors/mistakes. If no WP on the second batter, then we have two outs....this means when the Firstbaseman makes the unassisted play, no more runs would have scored; it would have been the third out. 2 earned runs....

But I also believe its correct that you have to look at the Catchers error play. If it was a pickoff that would not have obviously got someone out, you have to treat it differently than when the guy was hung out to dry and the Catcher threw it away.

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