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Select?

dadofonesdadofones10+ posts
As one who spends very little time posting on this site, but way too much time reading it, I've noticed a recurring statment that's now caused me to wonder, and I thought I'd throw it out for opinions.

I've noticed how we (myself included) continue to use the word "select" like it still means something. I haven't been around that long, but in the days of yore, Select baseball did, in fact, mean something. There was a definite separation between Select ball and "regular" ball. If you played Select, it meant that you truly were a step ahead. You could wear it like a badge of honor. If you could claim to be a part of teams like the Tigers, Mustangs, Panthers, Blackhawks, Wizards, etc., you were feared and revered, and were almost treated with a "bow-down" mentality. The red, white, and blue Mustang hats could be spotted a mile away and were worshipped like gold.

Now, with the exception of a few lower-level Rec. leagues, EVERY team is "select". That is, the coach gets to hand pick (select) every player on the roster. The Texas DaisyPickers and Joe Schmo's are now select. Forget about the fact that they couldn't even win a forfeit game, they're "select", by golly! Is this affecting their attitudes towards work ethic? I've seen this primarily at the younger ages, but I'm amazed at the number of times I hear a kid say, "Oh, I play with so and so, we're SELECT". Really? So where've you guys been playing? "Oh, we just got 3rd in the 2-team Sharp As A Marble tourney over in Ft. Worth, but it was all Select teams!"

My fear is that the term "select" has become so diluted and completely lost its' luster that it may be affecting the younger player's attitudes towards work ethic. It seems as though many of them are settling in on the thought that, since their team is "select", they're as good as it gets and now they can sit back and cruise. Crud, I've talked to high school summer players who have never even heard of DBAT and Tigers! But yet, they play "select", so they've reached the pinnacle? Give me a break.

So, how do we re-create that separation that used to exist between ordinary ball and real ball in the minds of these young players? Can the coaches (myself included) be to blame for not challenging players to get to that next level? To be able to compete with the best-of-the-best? If these young men are our future, then don't we owe it to the game to ensure that they're constantly striving for a higher level? Should we come up with a new name for the old "Select"? It concerns me that, although the number of talented players in the metroplex is growing, the number of talented, dedicated teams is not. Sorry for the long post. I'm off the soapbox now.
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M Marcos10+ posts
Well said and I agree with you that the term "select" is completely diluted. Many "clubs", "organizations", call themselves select and my opinion is that they are selecting which parents they want to write them the checks.

There are of course the teams that do a good job of running the select programs of old and you have mentioned several of them, however even within some of these clubs the product that is put on the field is sometimes a joke.

What does a select team of today really constitue?
J jesuitbaseball100+ posts
quote:
Well said and I agree with you that the term "select" is completely diluted. Many "clubs", "organizations", call themselves select and my opinion is that they are selecting which parents they want to write them the checks.


I think this statement is completely untrue. Do you think the Mustangs, Marshalls, Tigers, DBAT etc. just pick kids so they can get money? ABSOLTUTLY NOT

select baseball is way more then that. It is the best groups of kids put together to learn the game. Heck, they may not be the greatest bunch but you get way more competition regardless in BBI, Lonestar etc. Then you do in rinky dink YMCA or whatever the rec leagues are now. Select teams are teams that want the best possible competition and want to learn and develop there skills at the next level
S scout761072510+ posts
You are right on your post and Dbat Dtigers and Mustangs have one good team each rest are for money that is why there is new league started this fall in Texas why I pulled my teams from playing in the leagues around here. as a scout BBI and Lonestar have both become watered down. What once was great ball in Texas is now just high priced rec league and he is right about select not being the same as it was in early 1990's.
MelyndaMelynda100+ posts
j-ball ... if you don't think some "select" teams are about money, you MUST be still the player -- and not the parent ... I know of people who paid tons o' money to be "associated" with a team -- only to have their kid sit!! Practice was as good as it got for some....maybe that was worth the price -- who knows?
AR ASU RAM FAN100+ posts
So scout7610725, which of the Dbat teams is the one put together just for money? The 18's which were so good all year, or the 17's, you know them, they are the ones that WON the CM Regional. In this case, it sounds to me like, open mouth/change feet.

I agree that the meaning of the word select has changed over the years, but what is wrong with more kids getting an opportunity to play at a higher level of competition than they would get in their local rec league.

In many cases, without these opportunities kids would probably give up playing summer ball, or they would be playing for their school team possibly coached by a dad.

I think as long as people know going in what they expect, there should be no problems.
DC Diablo con Huevos500+ posts
dadofones- Good post! Oh soooo true.
There are still "select" teams out there... and some really good ones... but most run under other words now, such as Premier. Whether it be in BBI or that other Premier group....

Select means nothing anymore.... in ten years there will be a zillion Premier teams... and the great programs will have to find another term for the ones who latch on to Premier (that aren't Premier)....

SCOUT8675309- YOU have NO IDEA what you are talking about. Yes there are programs who have 5 teams at each level and the four bottom ones pay for the top one to travel or to the coaches pocket... but Tigers and DBAT??? ummm... you haven't been around these parts very long - your ignorance shows in your post.

YOUR team quit these leagues to form a new league in Texas???? What is your team??? What league were you in??? What is your new awesome league that everyone needs to run to??? Do you even realize that the DBAT 16's are at the AABC MM World Series? The DBAT 17's are at the AABC CM World Series??? And the DBAT 18's had a gillion kids drafted and a gillion go DI??? Which was the team that was put together to put $$$ in coaches pocket?

Get a clue.

BBI Premier has the right idea... put the teams (that have the talent year in and year out) together and go beat the **** out of each other each week... I am sure there are only 2-3 other teams that they would want in from the north Texas area... but other than that it is by far the best league around - and NO, I do not have a kid that plays on a team in that league...
T TigerPaw0810+ posts
I agree that BBI has the right idea with the Premier league. This seemed to be the same concept as the "old" select teams basically playing one another and not dominating until they played someone outside of this competition. I suspect if a couple of other teams would have committed, some of those guys wouldn't have been there though.

Our team played in the Lone Star league, finished in the top 25% I guess (I never saw updated standings). But every time we played a team from BBI premier team in tournaments, our record was around .500, 6-5 I think and we never played DBAT. All of our wins were nail biters as well, they could have went either way. I think we would have been better off playing at BBI if voted in, but for whatever reason we didn't. I believe we would have been better prepared for the MMWS tournaments anyway.

IMHO
dadofonesdadofones10+ posts
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ASU RAM FAN:

I agree that the meaning of the word select has changed over the years, but what is wrong with more kids getting an opportunity to play at a higher level of competition than they would get in their local rec league.

In many cases, without these opportunities kids would probably give up playing summer ball, or they would be playing for their school team possibly coached by a dad.

ASU:

I understand what you're saying, and please don't get me wrong. I'm certainly not implying in any way that the opportunity to play be taken away from any player. In fact, it's just the opposite. I think it's outstanding that there are so many kids now participating. My concern is simply that these kids, because they're playing on a team that has been labeled "select" by their coach, may see that as an end-all and not be given the opportunity to see what's really out there. If they become comfortable with the fact that they're supposedly "select", and are never given the opportunity to see a DBAT, Cats, Tigers, etc. play, then will they lose the motivation to improve?
SWACSWAC500+ posts
scout7610725 & dadofones , we talk so much about this word "Select". Select simply means one thing, the Tigers, Mustangs, Marshals, FW Cats, DBAT, Panthers, Patriots, "select" what players thay want on their team just as you select who you want on your team. The only difference may be the level of competition. Are your teams playing at East Cobb, Junior Olympics, Premier Baseball Championships, PG BCS, Show cases at Baylor, Texas A&M, Texas, Arkansas, Ok State. Don't critize these organizations for helping high school players.
Last edited by SWAC
T Texan1,000+ posts
So select has grown & now has a variety of competitive levels. What is wrong with that?

Yes, there are at least three tiers of select now. The top tier are the established clubs who can compete with any team in the country. The next tier are good clubs, but they just can't quite get "over the hump". Perhaps just a few players from being top tier. Then there are the teams that just can't hang, even on their best day, with the top two tiers. These may be daddyball teams, or teams recruiting from a small population base.

Again, why is this a problem? The scouts and coaches still know who are the top tier teams. What harm is being done?
Panther DadPanther Dad5,000+ posts
Texan is right on target. Select has grown because kids and their parents want a degree of choice before "investing" in their son's baseball summer. The want the ability to SELECT a situation that will benefit their son ---- and one where their son is SELECTED, based on his talent level. Little league baseball...."random" draft, etc....has its place for younger kids. Concerning tiers of select, this is a natural by-product of having more kids in this arena.

With HS baseball in the spring and select in the summer, the kids have the best of both worlds. Ok, some would rather SELECT their HS situations as well. Cool
dadofonesdadofones10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by SWAC:
scout7610725 & dadofones , we talk so much about this word "Select". Select simply means one thing, the Tigers, Mustangs, Marshals, FW Cats, DBAT, Panthers, Patriots, "select" what players thay want on their team just as you select who you want on your team. The only difference may be the level of competition. Are your teams playing at East Cobb, Junior Olympics, Premier Baseball Championships, PG BCS, Show cases at Baylor, Texas A&M, Texas, Arkansas, Ok State. Don't critize these organizations for helping high school players.


SWAC:

Please don't misinterpret any of my comments as criticism of any type. My son has played with or against these teams for the last 5 years and I have nothing but respect for each of them. For all I know, he may end up back with one of them next year. Our team also played Premier this past summer, and, yes, if he's still healthy he'll attend showcases next summer, so I have no reason whatsoever to criticize. Just wondered if anyone else had an opinion as to whether or not the term "select" might be becoming to diluted. Certainly don't want it to become argumentative.
Ken GuthrieKen Guthrie1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Panther Dad:
Select has grown because kids and their parents want a degree of choice before "investing" in their son's baseball summer.



I agree. But should the players talent level and performance make the choice for the coaches, or should the parents and the player make the choice.

That is the difference between today and yesteryear. The Alex Rodiguez's are making the choice what they are worth instead of the teams making the choice what the players are worth.

As soon as these teams and their leaders put their foot down and say..............

"This is how it will be done, no exceptions", I believe there will be a continuous dilution of our product.

Just like if all 30 owners agreed to set a salary scale regardless of player, salaries would go down. But, they keep bowing down to the players union.

"Just because you have the right to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do."
SWACSWAC500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by kirk:
scout, I am waiting to read your reply to Diablo's counterpoint.

DBAT DOES NOT MAKE ONE PENNY OFF OF IT'S "SELECT" TEAMS! The only people who profit (financially) are the paid coaches and they earn their money.


Scout is just another case of putting his/her foot in his/her mounth with no facts to back up such a false statement.
Panther DadPanther Dad5,000+ posts
Ken -- the major league owners did that once --- and paid the price for collusion. On that level, each owner has to make a personal choice as to when enough is enough. It is illegal for them to decide together because of their anti-trust exemption.

Concerning summer baseball -- I do not believe this area will develop into an East Cobb, where the culture includes more pure tryouts for the top teams. But I agree that the BBI Premier division will continue to offer the best level of competition if the leaders there maintain a high-level of integrity in selecting the teams. Nine teams allows a 16-game schedule. Perhaps Premier should take the example of the top socker leagues....where teams that slide to the bottom must play their way back in to the upper 9....new teams can also earn their way into the top group.

It is a lot to ask (perhaps too much) to expect parents and coaches to put ego aside in the name of forming an "elite" team ---- from any area of the country.

JMO.
surethingsurething10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Melynda:
j-ball ... if you don't think some "select" teams are about money, you MUST be still the player -- and not the parent ... I know of people who paid tons o' money to be "associated" with a team -- only to have their kid sit!! Practice was as good as it got for some....maybe that was worth the price -- who knows?
surethingsurething10+ posts
Sorry about that hit the wrong button....
I agree 100% that there are teams that hand pick the parents that can write the check. I have seen this first hand. Pay $1500 - 1700 to say your on a certain team. Like it was said some players never see the field. This is what makes some us think that some organizations are in it for the $$$, However I have also seen the winning teams each year have kids pay this kind of money to sit the bench, But guess what the player got to say he played for_______ and the parent got to brag that thierson was on ________ team. Personaly I don't care one way or the other not my money . Some times I think we as parents want this kind of recognition more than our kids do. Really how fun could it be to sit in a dugout and watch others play knowing you will never see the field. think of you kids before making such a decision, If he or she is good enough it won't matter who they play for.... The Scouts and everyone else will know who they are.
TrainTrain100+ posts
Darn....what's wrong with the name T & W.

How about if each family pays $100 per win which is how many measure success. Our orgainization would have made a lot of money this past year.

Why not just have a training fall session to teach kids advanced fundamentals of the game that were not taught during HS and go back to teaching the game versus playing all the time? I can hear the replies already...playing in a game is a better experience than practice.

WOLF..wanna start a team? We can get SWAC to be our GM for a few cheeseburgers and fries Big Grin We can hire Balco to get our kids ready for the season, use Tommys new facility for free, H & U for team support, and OLDBAT as our nutrional specialist Big Grin.
P PoteetHSbaseballfan10+ posts
It's true most all teams are "select" now by definition. Select means nothing today. Now it's all about what level tournaments you play. USSSA-Major, AAA, AA or A, Super Series National, American and Minors and so on.... There are now unlimited world series every year. You don't even have to earn a spot in most of them. Finish in the top 4 of a qualifier and you are in.

There are very few true world series. The AABC, USSSA Elite 24 and the Little League World Series are a few I can think of.

I think the root of this whole problem might go back to the schools for trying to program non-competitive kids. No special recognition for playdays or field days everyone gets a ribbon just for showing up.

OK enough of my ramblings. Smile
J JimW.10+ posts
I think there are some excellent comments here.

I agree, "select" ball is not what it was in the past, that's ok. I think is has evolved to promote a higher level of ball. What that level is, is determined by the skills of the players/coaches and commitment of the players and families.

Possibly it is the interpretation of what select means. As Melynda cleverly indicated:

" From the dictionary --
Select: to choose in preference to others
Premier: first in rank"

Select is diffentiated from rec ball due to a selection process. Texan did a good job of explaining his tiered analogy, though I would say there are more that 3 tiers overall but would agree you can probably group three tiers of teams that play at the Premier or USSSA-Major level.

I think the select tiers are more in line with what PoteetHSbaseballfan indicated: "it's all about what level tournaments you play. USSSA-Major, AAA, AA or A, Super Series National, American and Minors and so on...."

The way I see it is, what select ball should be for an individual is what's best for the development of the individual player. Let's face it, we all have see very good (for example) 14U teams where the players were dominating due to their developed size and strength, Major level players. We have also seen excellent players that could play at that same level but had not matured to the same level yet. I think they could play at the Major level but the player would benefit from the additional playing time they would get at a lesser tier or AAA level of play at that time. Sometimes that is hard for some players/parents to accept but playing time is important, in my opinion, more so than being on a Premier/Major/Elite 16/nationally recognized team. Even the pros send down players to get their playing time in and develop for the future. Nothing wrong with that.

The right exposure/work ethic/commitment to excel/and yes talent will give the smaller player the chance when he catches up maturity wise. If this type of player works on the proper mechanics and fundamentals then when he develops, he may be equal to or excel the players that have been at that level a while. I've seen young men not reach the same maturity level until they reach college. Early bloomers and late bloomers.

In a sense, you could say the term "select ball" is like "pro ball" in that there are many "tiers" to get to the best of the best and even that may vary from season to season.

With that said.....how about just calling it "tournament ball".
R reggie-3-77100+ posts
Where has John Davis gone?

We all ways tend to remember the past as being better than the present. There were as many issues in Select Baseball (or whatever you want to call it) 5 or 10 years ago as there are today. Today there are better facilities, more and better instructors and many more choices for the kids to play at their level of ability then there were when my kids started playing Select Baseball in Texas 10 years ago. If anyone attended the AABC games as TCU last weekend they would have seen some very good teams competing at the highest levels.

As one who moved here from the Northeast where you have very few choices to play summer baseball, I would much rather the chioces that we are presented with today then the alternative.
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