Sending/holding runners as 3B coach

Can't really say I follow a set formula. There are a few things to do ahead of the decision time to make life easier. Know the arms and where the outfielders are playing prior to each pitch. See if the outfielder gets the ball moving in or is standing flat footed. Watch the outfielder in pre-game, does he take a long time to get rid of the ball or is he fast? Then, position yourself far down the 3rd base line "in the coaches box" and give yourself time to see what is happening and make it easier for the runner at second to see you. If the arm is good, I watch for the footwork by the fielder to make my decision, any hesitation and I send him. Hope this helps.

First, I use a system of "red-yelllow-green" to assess a variety of factors (think of it like a stoplight). Is my runner a red, a yellow (average speed) or a green? In this, I consider his speed AND his ability as a baserunner to read and react.

Next, is the situation red, yellow, or green? By that, I mean are you down a run late, or up by 3 or 4 early? Red means conservative, green means "go aggressive". Also, factor in who's up next and how can you plate the guy if you hold him at third?

Third, gauge the OF arms and depth. Same system, red means they are playing in and have decent arms. Green means they are back, or weak arms.

Fouth, gauge the hit the same way. A lot of red - ball hit that could be caught in the air, or ball smashed and one hops the OF, etc. Double down the line is obvious green.

So, put those together...all greens and he is rolling...all red "stop or dead". And if it is mostly yellows, keep looking!

So, what does keep looking mean? Read the cutoff man...in position or out of position? Anybody covering 3b? Bobble by the OF? Players communicating? All those help me convert yellows to greens.

Lastly, I slide way down the line so I can see the play, plus as the runner rounds the bag, he can look me straight in the eye. Almost all of the time, if I stop him in the first 30 ft, he can get back to 3B without being picked off for taking too big a turn (but you have to teach them this). The hard turn will force an assumption of a play at the plate which usually opens things up.

Hope that helps...never an easy call to predict a perfect throw, a catch, a tag and all within a footrace.

PS: Try holding everyone at 3b and see how much your naysayers enjoy that approach. If you don't get them thrown out once in a while, you are not doing your job.

Another thing to consider is the height of the throw. Typically a ball thrown higher will land and not skip whereas a ball on a lower trajectory will skip and continue on. So if the cutoff man can't reach it due to being over his head then you may want to try it because the ball will not skip to the catcher. Over the years I've seen throws that hit the IF and would end up being great wedge shots on the green if you were playing golf.

I basically agree with the other guys and really like what Schwammi does. What I teach is my guys are going and are on their own unless they can't see the ball or if they get the stop sign from me. I get down the line to see the play and basically read everything as schwammi describes it with the red, yellow or green - I've just never put it in those terms.

My philosophy is I want my guys to know where the fielders are, what kind of arms and where the ball is hit so they don't have to wait. I've seen many teams who have their players have to check the base coaches on everything but it leads to players not going all out because they are "waiting" on the coach to signal them. I want my guys out of the gate and going as soon as the ball is hit.

Now if they can't see the ball (this is more going from first to third on a ball to RF but it can be going home on a ball to CF area) and are unsure then I'm there telling them what I think - go or hold and they react accordingly. Overall I'm doing what everyone else does in the box but my guys have the freedom to read the ball on their own.

Yes I've had guys run through stop signs and if that happens then I usually don't make a big deal out of it's a close play. If they can tell me "coach I thought ........" and it is a good argument then I'm ok with it since I've turned them loose. Now if it happens a lot to the same person then he and I need to go do some baserunning during practice and fix the problem.

There are times when I don't want to chance the play at the plate and if that's the case I usually tell the runner while he's on 2nd before the ball is hit or I'm telling him right away to hold. If the ball gets away from the OF then we can always put the go sign back on. My guys will not jog to the next base even if I'm holding them up. I still expect them to look aggressive by hustling and big turns - it's just that they know ahead of time that they will be stopping.

Overall there are two types of basecoaches - those who have got runners nailed at the plate and those who it's about to happen to. You're going to get guys nailed and there will be bad calls get over them and move on.

I have to go with what coach2709 said. We try to let our runners make that determination and coaches help. I try to get down the line to allow me more time to make the decision to stop them or not.

We usually do not get the opportunity to scout most teams we play, but I do give the players a scouting sheet to fill out on the other team during pregame. If we are at a tourn., we will sit in the stands and fill it out together.

Another thing we look for is the strength of the relay arms. Sometimes you will get a second baseman with a weaker arm and it will give you that extra step or two you need.

Another very important factor, is the number of outs. You would obviously be more aggressive with two outs and the bottom of your order coming up (because this may very well be your best chance to score a run)than you would with no outs and 3,4, and 5 due up.

That being said, I don't have a "concrete" system I use either, I use my instincts and decide whether to go, or stay. But I have heard of the "if the runner touches third before..." idea and would like to know if that is fairly reliable.

Everyone has made tremendous suggestions in IMHO. I especially liked what coach 2709 and d8 added to the discussion about player responsibility.

You try to coach during practice, game time just shows how effective you were at teaching those principles.

Coach2709 stated that "players have to check the base coaches on everything but it leads to players not going all out because they are "waiting" on the coach to signal them." To me, those words hold true.

Another example might be advancing from 2nd to 3rd on ground balls to 3rd with less than two outs. What about a slow roller or chopper to 3rd that forces him to charge the ball and the only play is to 1st? Another might be the 3rd bagger never looking at the runner to freeze him and throwing to 1st. There may even be the one or two hopper that forces the 3rd baseman back almost onto the grass to take it.

IMO this is where what was accomplished in practice, reinforced during situational drills or scrimmages, and either shine through or stick out like a sore thumb during a game really shows.

THANKS A LOT GUYS! NOW YOU'RE MAKING ME THINK OUT LOUD!!

One of the things we do to help players with this is that at least once a week we will have runners on base during bp to read the ball coming off of the bat. It has greatly increased our players ability to move around the basepaths.

An additional point: You can help yourself by teaching your players to round the bag at full speed, even when they know full well you might ultimately throw up a stop sign.

I see all the time, players "Cadillac" it into the bag, thinking the play is ending. Next thing you know there's a muff in the OF, or a throw eludes the relay man. Or, maybe you just wanted to see if the OF could execute the throw well before you made your final decision. If the players run the bases full out and correctly, it makes your job as a base coach so much easier. If the kid is moving hard and 20' of the way from third to home, then you can send him that last 70' with a lot of confidence a lot of the time. If he's pulling up right on the bag, then trying to get him to start up again from a standstill with the full 90' to go is a much more difficult proposition.

Same thing goes for rounding first base on a single in the outfield -- round it hard and see if an opportunity to take second presents itself. Ditto, rounding second -- see if you get the chance to take third. You won't get it every time, but you'll get it a lot more than you used to. Challenge the outfielders. Draw a throw. Pressure the defense and see if maybe things open up for you.

This is most always situationally dependent,however you can't score runs unless you try to score runs.In general most 3rd base coaches tend to be too conservative relative to scoring runners or not scoring runners. If you are more aggressive, your base runners will be more agressive which gives you a better chance of scoring when you try to score them.The key is they are running hard(their best speed)expecting you to score them.It is next to impossible to score a runner on a close play if he is not running hard from the get go.When your runners run their 'best speed" all the time it forces the defense to speed up their process. When you force them to play "quicker catch" than they are used to, they make mistakes.

A general guideline to keep in mind is that the ball at the amateur level moves about 3 times faster than the runner(The time it takes for the runner to run 90' the ball will travel 270') This becomes runner & thrower dependent.(Also varies on balls hit in the air,balls hit on the ground,& ball hit side to side)So if you know where 270' is on the field you are playing on, know the thrower's time from release to catch, & the runners time for a running 90' you can be pretty sure if the runner will be out or safe as long as nothing unforseen occurs.

Unless the situation calls for the most conservative course,any time it takes a perfect play to throw your runner out, send him.

JW

Good comments guys....

One additional point: If the fielder is running glove side to get the ball you can be way more aggressive.

If it's a tight game, I'm thinking about the matchup with the pitcher and my guy who is on deck. I am telling myself before the pitch, "do NOT make an out at the plate" or "I need to be aggressive"

Reading Midlo and Jerry's post got me thinking about something we teach but I forgot to post. Honestly I'm just rewording what they already said.

We tell our guys no matter what - force the defense to throw the ball in front of you. In order to do that you must hustle and take good aggressive turns. If the defense is always having to make hustle plays with hard throws to bases they will eventually mess up and throw one away. Force them to make plays.

This mindset starts by coming out of the box. Nothing kills me more than to see a fast guy get a solid single and start pulling up at around 70 - 75 feet and only going about 10 - 15 feet around first. The OF goes about 70 - 80% effort and lobs the ball back in. Yeah 99 out of 100 times you're staying at first on that type of hit / effort. But if you take that turn that forces things then you're only going to be staying at first around 70 out of 100 times (I'm pulling those numbers out of the air but I think you get what I mean). Well I would rather force the OF to hustle to the ball and make a solid throw to the bag and increase the chances of a mistake.

Best way to work on this is during BP make it live with 9 guys up and anytime the batter gets a single he has to go to second no matter where the ball is hit. It's a great defensive / offensive drill because now it forcs your OF to get to the ball and make a throw.

One more thing that might help in learning how to read whether to send / hold a runner is a defensive drill. Put runners on 2B with helmets and a defense out there. Get a coach on a fungo bat and hit singles to the OF and the runner has to score. I actually did this first as a defensive drill to work on cuts / relays but I realized quickly that it helped me as a third basecoach. It just gives you a lot more reps on actual close plays because you're setting them up yourself. In a game you may go a week before you have to make a decision on a close play. This way you get to see it.

How many noticed Vlad's agressiveness when he scored that 3rd run last night. Nice read on his part coming around third to allow himself that chance to score.

As Midlo Dad put it, "players "Cadillac" it into the bag, thinking the play is ending." Glad to see that an experienced player still wants to play a little while longer this season.

That play happened as I was typing last night. Truly it was a great play and great read on the defense. You know it looked like he he was about ready to stop until he took the look and then busted it hard to the plate. But what allowed him to score although he almost stopped is the hustle to get to third. It would have been easy to think the double play would happen and the inning be over or know they won't throw at him and then coast. He hustled to third and it is what let him score.

Another good baserunning play happened an inning or two before when the little flare to CF turned into a double because they were hustling out of the box. I can't remember who hit the ball but as I was watching it I was thinking "this is the type of hit if you bust it out of the box he could get second" and next thing I know that's what he was doing.

Price was horribly unengaged in his defensive efforts last night. The Rangers handed him 2 easy outs at home plate if he is quick to check the runners. Instead, their trainers are washing champagne out of the uniforms today

Regarding Coach O's comment on Guerrero's aggressiveness, I was at a Ranger/Red Sox game in Boston this summer and Guerrero went from first to third on a fairly hard hit ball to right field (I was surprised he could still run). Drew approached the ball very casual and by the time he realized Gurerrero was not stopping at second, it was too late to make a play.