Shame on Deep Run Coach O'Dell!

I didn't know you could pitch 11 innings in a high school game.

Pregame--20-30 warm up throws

Pregame bullpen--20-30 good, hard pitches

Avg pitches between innings: 5/6, minimum (let's say 5)/inning, so 11 x 5 = 55 warm up pitches

"Pitch Count" during game--in 11 innings at least, what, 130 pitches?

130 + 55 + 30 + 30 = 245 throws/pitches . . . about right?

In the days of Walter Johnson pitchers threw doubleheaders--at least that is what people say. I doubt it. I also doubt that throwing 11 innings is healthy for a high school kid.

Section 56-1-1 of the state handbook states that "A pitcher shall not pitch mot than ten (10) innings in a any two consecutive calendar days."

"...shall not pitch more than..."

I noticed that box score this morning, but I didn't notice it was 11 innings. For whatever reason I thought there were only 9 innings, which I still found strange for a high school game. Especially considering this was a non district game, it is particularly excessive in my opinion.

If he pitched all 11 innings then not only did deep Run's coach potentially hurt a young man's arm but he is also going to lose the game if Henrico appeals which they should!

While I would tend to agree that 11 innings of work would seem to be excessive and have never had a pitcher go past 7, I do not think that the number of innings is necessarily the biggest concern with regards to a pitcher's health. What if the Henrico pitcher threw around 110 pitches in his seven innings and the Deep Run pitcher threw 133 pitches in eleven? Which pitcher has endured the most stress?

Obviously, this would depend on what type of conditioning program the player is on and what kind of workload the pitcher is used to etc.. My view is that more often than not, High School pitcher's are underprepared to withstand the stress of pitching in a competitive environment.

My point is that we don't know the answer to these questions. Two different pitcher's can throw to the same number of batters, throw the same number of pitches and even throw with the same velocity, number of BB's etc. and have different reactions to the workload.

I was at the Deep Run game and the numbers I quoted are pretty close to the number of pitches thrown by each player. I missed the first inning but was charting the game from the second inning on. I believe I had the Deep Run pitcher at around 120 pitches or so and Henrico Pitcher at around 100. I could check and get the exact number if you'd like.

If a kid threw 11 innings and averaged only 10.5 pitches an innings then that is AMAZING...What was the other team doing??? Did they swing at everything? Did this kid throw no balls? He must have had several innings under 10 pitches...That is incredible. I would love to see that official box score.

I did miss the first inning, so I would guess 135 or so for the game if you consider he had a 15 pitch first inning. There were several "quick innings" in which the batter swung at the first or second pitch and then made an out. Henrico was Hitless through 5 innings. Neither pitcher had many walks and were around the plate. However, I beleive there were a couple of innings for each pitcher where their pitch count got up into the 20's for the inning. I believe that stat is another one that bears watching as for as stress on the pitcher and indicators of fatigue etc..

Not sure I agree with the negativity. I have played with two players (in high school) that "rubber arm" would have been an understatement. One kid threw BOTH ends of a DH (legion), winning both and never missed a beat. The other never iced and threw 150+ in a game, throwing harder in inning 9 then inning 1.

My point is coaches should know their kids. We've all see 130 pitches at 12U and 13U. That's crazy but 18 year olds can be pretty strong and mature.

Not being there, it's hard to cast stones but if this kid was at 80 pitches in INNING 8, I'd keep trucking him out there.

Assuming the kid's pitch count (including warm-up pitches) was over 130, the negativity is warranted. The coach put winning ahead of the kid's health and he should be reprimanded. Of course the kid wants to stay out there and pitch, that is why we have adult coaches who are supposed to see the big picture.

Medical professionals have recommended pitch count limits of 110 for ages 16-18. Professional pitchers who are mature adults and who train year round don't pitch 11 innings but this high school coach apparently believes he knows more about physiology than doctors and big league trainers? Total nonsense. The bottom line is that this coach failed miserably in his responsibility to his player.

Bear in mind also that Deep Run had no games Monday or Tuesday (rain) and as best I could tell had no game on Thursday.

Unless several other pitchers they've used this year were suddenly laid up all at once, you have to wonder, why? Why not make a change?

I think this is a great thread, and intereting to see the differing opinions.

As I said in my original post, I would tend to agree with the general premise of Midlo Dad, however I am not sure the "letter of the law" approach some take with pitch counts and number of innings as being the sole indicator of "ruining" a pitcher and his career.

The initial thread seemed to be based on the number of innings a pitcher throws was too excessive and that the Henrico coach should be commended for only throwing his pitcher for 7 innings. I believe the difference between the two players was around 25 pitches. However one did it in seven and the other did it in 11. If we are throwing in pitch counts, and as Bob Uecker says that 110 pitches including warm-ups is the magic number, then the Henrico coach did not help out his player either. As a matter of fact, with the 110 all inclusive number, There are many more coaches other than the Deep Run coach that violates that standard.

I think they are good guidelines but not necessarily a hard rule. If you have 2 pitcher's and each throw a 100 pitches, but one follows a rigorous training program and the other runs a couple of poles between starts and sits on the couch, their reaction to the workload may not be the same. Also, two pitchers throw 75 pitches, one throws it over 6 innings, the other over 2, that is not the same workload.

One last observation, I think the medical profession should be used, but one thing I have noticed on the HBO special and articles found on the internet, when doctors talk about pitching injuries they almost always come back to pitch counts or "mechanics". These may indeed be the problem, however I have never heard them mention undreprepartion to to throw as a cause of injury.

Just my two cents. I am not an O'dell supporter by any stretch, just not sure someone should be jumped on unilaterally in a public forum without knowledge of other factors.

That is unbelievable! You should never have a KID throw that many pitches when there is a future ahead of him. 100 pitches is enough for one game. I hope the coach was wise enough to fill up a bath tub full of ice and enter him into a 10k marathon this weekend.

A post on VirginiaPreps.com indicates that there may be a VHSL rule prohibiting any pitcher from throwing more than 10 innings in any 2-day period. I am not familiar with this rule, but am wondering if anyone here knows it.

Perhaps Henrico's coach should protest the game?

From Henrico's website: "Meanwhile, Deep Run’s Marshall Halblieb was pitching a gem of his own. He kept his team in the game despite giving up single runs in the sixth and seventh innings. He was re-energized by his team’s come back and then went on to pitch all 11 innings for the win. He gave up four hits, three of them doubles. He struck out nine “Warriors” and walked one."

11 innings is clearly a long stint, but I think rest between innings is helpful, not harmful. I'm in agreement with 'InTheBullpen': throwing too many pitches in one inning is more stressful than spreading that same number out over multiple innings. I also don't think warmup pitches should count as part of the total -- they are not thrown at full strength. Many coaches err on the side of not having their pitchers adequately warmed up for games.

At any rate, 9 Ks pushes the pitch count up dramatically. But only 1 BB in 11 innings, so the pitcher wasn't wasting pitches.

I just think it's crazy for a HS kid to go 11 inn.

If there is a rule I would definitely protest, if only to send a message.....My son is NOT a pitcher and I just think this is wrong/unnecessary......

Yea it's pretty crazy, but it's legit: This is from the VHSL handbook. Since it was a district game tied at the end of regulation, the extra innings are allowed:

SECTION 56: BASEBALL.
56-1-1 Pitching Regulations-A pitcher shall not pitch in more than ten (10) innings in
any two consecutive calendar days. Pitching one ball or more in any one inning is considered
as having pitched an inning. If a game is called due to weather or any other reason, innings
pitched by any player in such game shall be counted. Exception-If a player is pitching in a
district, region or state tournament game that is tied at the end of regulation play, he may
fi nish such a tie game regardless of the number of innings, provided (1) he did not pitch the
previous day or in the fi rst game of a double header on the same day and (2) the tie game
does not extend into a subsequent day.

Unless this was a tournament game the exception to the (10) inning rule does not apply:


Exception-If a player is pitching in a
district, region or state tournament game that is tied at the end of regulation play, he may
finish such a tie game regardless of the number of innings, provided

Bob Uecker: I think you are right. I interpreted it differently the first time around. I extracted district game from that phrase.

"The highlight of my career? In '67 with St. Louis, I walked with the bases loaded to drive in the winning run in an intersquad game in spring training." -- Bob Uecker

I am actually loving this one. Bob Uecker/JBB and others...how do you think Cy Young got 511 wins? How did the Big Train get 400+ wins. And I guess no one has ever heard of Daisuke Matsuzaka. 255 pitches in his high school state championship.

Guys...there are "retread" pitching coaches in the pros that are now saying that pitch counts are for the birds. Nolan Ryan has Round Rock putting the pitch counters in the trash. Mechanics, my friend...not pitch counts. If a kid has a "loose arm," and his mechanics are good, watch his velocity and how his body reacts.

Oh, one last thing...how do you explain Nolan Ryan, Curt Shilling, Roger Clemens, John Smoltz and others? Those guys went MANY times into the 100's in less than 9 innings. I've personally seen Clemens throw 140. And don't use that age old response...they are just the exceptions.

quote:

Originally posted by SWBaseball:
I am actually loving this one. Bob Uecker/JBB and others...how do you think Cy Young got 511 wins? How did the Big Train get 400+ wins. And I guess no one has ever heard of Daisuke Matsuzaka. 255 pitches in his high school state championship.

Guys...there are "retread" pitching coaches in the pros that are now saying that pitch counts are for the birds. Nolan Ryan has Round Rock putting the pitch counters in the trash. Mechanics, my friend...not pitch counts. If a kid has a "loose arm," and his mechanics are good, watch his velocity and how his body reacts.

Oh, one last thing...how do you explain Nolan Ryan, Curt Shilling, Roger Clemens, John Smoltz and others? Those guys went MANY times into the 100's in less than 9 innings. I've personally seen Clemens throw 140. And don't use that age old response...they are just the exceptions.

You've missed the point entirely....Sure there are kids out there that can exceed recommended pitch and inning counts safely (and even coaches that can recognize them), but unfortunately many kids cannot and the rules are put in place to protect those kids from overzealous coaches, parents and themselves. This appears to have been a violation of the rules and there should be repercussions so that it does not happen again. As for those kids that pitch within the rules, but still end up with very high pitch counts, until the VHSL sees the light and puts a limit on pitch counts, we'll continue to see it happen.

No shame here. Just a high school "GAME",right?? From where I sit, there where no winners in that game, certainly not the "other" youngsters that would have benifited the practice.It is not the first time a coach left good sense at home and will not be the last.Must have had his reasons????

Here the central issue here. If the rule is you cannot pitch more than 10 innings in 2 consective days then did Deep Run violate the rule. If they did it is up to the athletic dept and the admin. at Deep Run to report to the VHSL that they did violate the rule. If they didn't violate the rule then they should say nothing. Sportsmanship demands that the right thing be done and you need to report yourself when you make a rules violation. Whether it was intentional or not is not the issue. Do the right thing.

Not saying coach was right or wrong but is 11 innings today equivalent to no more than 10 innings in two consecutive days if he doesnt pitch on the second day

Also why have different rules for playoffs/tournaments than what you have for the regular season?

Here's sportsmanship:

The other team's coach is aware of the rule and has decided not to protest. He told his team, "We had multiple chances to win and we didn't get it done." He doesn't want them to be crying foul, he wants them to play the game.

While that is admirable, the concern is that the guy who broke the rules gets a win and the guy who didn't gets pinned with a loss. If there's no penalty for breaking the rule, then it isn't much of a rule at all, is it?

Meaning: VHSL needs to step in on its own initiative.

This rule appears to be a Nationwide Rule and I believe that everyone on this thread is not reading it properly. This is a response from Texas Baseball Hall of Fame coach.

In 2000 we were playing Deer Park in the Regional Quarterfinals and our started Austin Sumerlin had thrown 10 innings with 17 strike outs and came out for the eleventh inning when the umpires told me he couldn't throw more than 10 innings in a day. I got in an argument with them, but not thrown out, when I told them they did not know the rule which was a player could not pitch more than 10 inning in a day in more than one game. Of course they won the argument that night, I changed pitchers and we lost the game 4-3. We came back the next day, and as I presented the UIL Manual to them at home plate, they knew they were wrong since I had it in writing.

So, a player can pitch more than 10 in ONE game, not two.

This situation will go a long way in saying a lot about Deep Run's athletic department and its school administrators as well as its baseball program. If you break a rule you have an obligation to turn your self in. I don't see this as being any different than using a illegal player. Someone who doesn't qualify because of age or grades for example. If DR broke the rule and doesn't turn itself in then they show no honor or sportsmenship. Its NASCAR's if "you ain't cheatin you ain't trying" attitude. That being said the issue is a week old now so its pretty obvious where DR stands on this subject.

quote:

Originally posted by SWBaseball:
This rule appears to be a Nationwide Rule and I believe that everyone on this thread is not reading it properly. This is a response from Texas Baseball Hall of Fame coach.

In 2000 we were playing Deer Park in the Regional Quarterfinals and our started Austin Sumerlin had thrown 10 innings with 17 strike outs and came out for the eleventh inning when the umpires told me he couldn't throw more than 10 innings in a day. I got in an argument with them, but not thrown out, when I told them they did not know the rule which was a player could not pitch more than 10 inning in a day in more than one game. Of course they won the argument that night, I changed pitchers and we lost the game 4-3. We came back the next day, and as I presented the UIL Manual to them at home plate, they knew they were wrong since I had it in writing.

So, a player can pitch more than 10 in ONE game, not two.

I have no idea how the "national rule" is written, but if this is the VHSL rule:

SECTION 56: BASEBALL.
56-1-1 Pitching Regulations-A pitcher shall not pitch in more than ten (10) innings in
any two consecutive calendar days. Pitching one ball or more in any one inning is considered
as having pitched an inning. If a game is called due to weather or any other reason, innings
pitched by any player in such game shall be counted. Exception-If a player is pitching in a
district, region or state tournament game that is tied at the end of regulation play, he may
fi nish such a tie game regardless of the number of innings, provided (1) he did not pitch the
previous day or in the first game of a double header on the same day and (2) the tie game
does not extend into a subsequent day.

It clearly states that you can not pitch more than 10 innings in two consecutive calendar days. So if you pitch 11 innings on Monday and 0 on Tuesday, how many innings have you pitched on those two calendar days? Any 1st grader knows that it is more than 10. Besides, why the need for the exception (no matter how stupid) in tourney play if what you say is true?

I'll be right sure that I repeat Firct grode on your insistunce. A- Apple, B - Ball, C - Ca__...Oops, Terry Bradshaw is my brother.

I'm getting their, my freind.

quote:

Originally posted by SWBaseball:
This rule appears to be a Nationwide Rule and I believe that everyone on this thread is not reading it properly. This is a response from Texas Baseball Hall of Fame coach.

In 2000 we were playing Deer Park in the Regional Quarterfinals and our started Austin Sumerlin had thrown 10 innings with 17 strike outs and came out for the eleventh inning when the umpires told me he couldn't throw more than 10 innings in a day. I got in an argument with them, but not thrown out, when I told them they did not know the rule which was a player could not pitch more than 10 inning in a day in more than one game. Of course they won the argument that night, I changed pitchers and we lost the game 4-3. We came back the next day, and as I presented the UIL Manual to them at home plate, they knew they were wrong since I had it in writing.

So, a player can pitch more than 10 in ONE game, not two.

I'm sorry, but this anecdote does not prove the point....every state may have a version of the same rule..but the specifics are probably state specific..that's why we have a VHSL.....if DR broke the rules....they should set an example for their athletes and do the right thing....and whether or not we are talking pitch counts or mechanics.....why does a pitcher need to pitch that many innings......? Would it not be better to err on the side of caution - especially with a young pitcher? But that is on the coach......

"Oh, one last thing...how do you explain Nolan Ryan, Curt Shilling, Roger Clemens, John Smoltz and others? Those guys went MANY times into the 100's in less than 9 innings. I've personally seen Clemens throw 140. And don't use that age old response...they are just the exceptions.[/QUOTE]

Whadaya mean don't use that age old response - "they are just the exceptions." Of course, THEY ARE THE EXCEPTIONS and they are mature adults under the best and closest medical scrutiny money can buy as opposed to some hyper-competitive high school coach with tunnel vision. Sorry, but these days professional pitchers don't pitch 11 innings and the argument is even stronger that H.S. pitchers shouldn't be pitching 11 innings. You can point to Cy Young, Walter Johnson, etc. You might as well argue that hard shell batting and football helmets are unnecessary cause Babe Ruth and Bronko Nagurski didn't wear one. As medical science has evolved regarding repetitive stress injury, so has the use of pitchers.

As for the insane practices of Japanese high school pitchers, please cite some medical professional who thinks those practices should be emulated here.

I am not sure, but I think SWBaseball was perhaps trying to make a point that baseball pitcher's "back in the day", seemed to be injured less than pitcher's today that are "under the care of medical professionals".

If this is true, why? Has anyone ever found some sort data on pitcher injuries over the years? I think that would be interesting to see. There is a great deal of money involved in the game and pitch counts and workload are monitored at every level of professional baseball. Some have speculated that the very reason for the upswing in injuries is due to the fact the pitcher's do not prepare themselves enough for the stress of pitching. I read an article about Dice-K last year and his throwing regimen, and Bobby Valentine(who coaches in Japan) was quoted as saying he believed that the current philosophies of handling pitcher's in the U.S. is backwards.

I get the point that some have made that coaches "need to see the big picture" and not do something to hurt the kid in order to win a "meaningless" game. And understand the "Religion of pitch counts and workload" that most of us tend to believe in. And while pitch count and innings worked are important, Why do we not here about the preparation side of the equation? Are all pitcher's created equal? Is 100 pitches for one player the same for another? How about 75? I get the feeling that some believe that a certain pitch count is considered "safe" for all pitcher's. Can pitcher's on a 75 pitch count not sustain a serious injury? What factors are involved? Certainly pitch counts and workload are important but are these the only factors that matter?

I have enjoyed reading this debate. I have never posted on a message board befoe until this post by Midlo Dad. I will probably resume Lurker status. Just wanted to put my two cents in.

Until someone cites some actual evidence that there were fewer arm injuries "back in the day" then it is just pure speculation. What is not speculation is that (according to the American Sports Medicine Institute -ASMI) there is a proven statistical relationship demonstrating that throwing more pitches increases the risk of arm injury. Can this statistical relationship predict when any specific pitcher will be injured? Of course not. Today, most high school pitchers pitch year round on Spring, Summer and Fall teams and do Winter work outs This was not the case years ago when good young athletes did not specialize in one sport as much as they do now. So high school pitchers are throwing more pitches in a year than they used to.

ASMI recommends the following pitch count limits:

Age Max. Pitches
Per Game Max. Games
Per Week
8-10 52 2
11-12 68 2
13-14 76 2
15-16 91 2
17-18 106 2

I agree pitch counts don't provide a fool-proof answer. But they do provide an easy to use safety valve that attempts to err on the side of the player's health and future. 106 pitches is a lot of pitches for a 17-18 year old. Most adult professional pitchers are subject to roughly the same pitch count imposed by their Clubs.

A coach that lets a young pitcher significantly exceed these recommended limits (even if the kid says he is fine) is playing Russian Roulette with a kid's health and his future. Such a coach should not be coaching. All this stuff about Cy Young, Walter Johnson and Dice K in high school is just a weak attempt to defend the indefensible. Back in the day, doctors used to bleed people to "cure" them but you don't see that too much anymore.

this thread has cracked me up while reading it. everyone on here thinks that they all know everything there is to know about baseball because some people wrote a book or did some research and everyone who reads it thinks they are a genius. by no means am i saying the kid should have thrown that many pitches. you're right it's not good for his arm. neither is him throwing a newspaper if he had a paper route. lets say he delivered a newspaper to 50 houses a day every day of the week. 350 newspaper tosses? should his boss get fired? should the editor of the paper get fired because he delivered this many papers? i don't think so. im sure the coach didnt make his player stay in the game. if the kid said that he is fine to stay in the game after he asked, then im pretty sure that should take the responsibility off of the coach. the kid is a young adult, he knows the risks, let him make the decision. i guess this is just what fans do. the coaches never make the right decisions, its always because of the good players, but he always makes the bad ones and the people in the stands like to point them out and keep telling him how bad of a coach he is and how he should get fired. again, i am not saying its ok that he threw that many pitches, but i am saying that its the nature of throwing anything in the motion of throwing a baseball, its not good for your arm. players know this, and its the assumption of risk that they all take by playing. HA!! i knew i learned something in that Legal Aspects of Sport Class!!! ok im done, i joined the site only to post on this topic.

Pitchers used to get what was called "dead arm" and retire young. Now they get surgery and come back over and over again. That makes it seem like there are more injuries than before, but really it's just the result of the advancements in medicine and the financial incentives players have now to keep trying to come back.

quote:

im sure the coach didnt make his player stay in the game. if the kid said that he is fine to stay in the game after he asked, then im pretty sure that should take the responsibility off of the coach. the kid is a young adult, he knows the risks, let him make the decision. i guess this is just what fans do. the coaches never make the right decisions, its always because of the good players, but he always makes the bad ones and the people in the stands like to point them out and keep telling him how bad of a coach he is and how he should get fired. again

I don't know much about baseball by your standards but this one weird post. Throwing newspapers? Get a grip. Since you are new.....that coach makes every decision for that team. Players on his teams make no decisions. Second as the adult coach hired to coach the team he is indeed responsible for making decisions that affect a players health and/or safety. If the player says he is fine and later is hurt how does the coach say "well he said it was fine...its not my fault." If kids are going to decide who plays and when then you don't need adult head coaches. Who is responsible for making pitching changes on the team? The head coach. The right decision to make was to take him out. No one would have complained that in a high school game you should have left a pitcher in for the 8th 9th 10th and llth innings.
As I stated earlier it is amazing that the rule was violated and neither the Times Dispatch has made an inquiry about it or the VHSL has not made any statement and Deep Run High School has not admitted to breaking the 10 inning rule and Henrico High School has not pointed out that a rule was violated. Could it be that a forfeit would negatively affect DR in the region as far as wins are concerned? It is called sportmanship and honor and obviously no body cares about either of those.

it has been confirmed that Deep Run did investigate this after the game and the VHSL has made Deep Run forfeit this game.

deep run's record is now 12-5 instead of 13-4.