Major leaque baseball has a problem with those players that cheat to break records.
What should be done?
Original Post
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NO Two volumes....one pre-roid.... one post!
quote:Should Cheaters and liars be allowed to keep there records?
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NO!!!!! All records should be expunged from 1980 to 2006 and very severe penalties imposed for anyone using drugs to enhance their performance.
In all my baseball viewing, I have seen players who cheated by altering their bats(cork,etc)and tampering with pitched balls(grease,emeryboards,etc.)
I have seen players disciplined for gambling, drug abuse, fighting, criminal activity, and various other things.
After penalties were enforced and completed, fans and baseball accepted the players back as if nothing happened.
One ballplayer I recall committed an offense, legal in the game, that caused baseball fans, MLB players and management and the media to hate him, have his career listed with special notations, and caused him to be subjected to the boos and taunts of fans. This went on for a few years after his offense and the discussion of this player and his offense still goes on.
That player was Roger Maris in 1961. His offense was hitting 61 home runs and breaking Babe Ruth's single season home run record.
I have seen players disciplined for gambling, drug abuse, fighting, criminal activity, and various other things.
After penalties were enforced and completed, fans and baseball accepted the players back as if nothing happened.
One ballplayer I recall committed an offense, legal in the game, that caused baseball fans, MLB players and management and the media to hate him, have his career listed with special notations, and caused him to be subjected to the boos and taunts of fans. This went on for a few years after his offense and the discussion of this player and his offense still goes on.
That player was Roger Maris in 1961. His offense was hitting 61 home runs and breaking Babe Ruth's single season home run record.
Quote by willybobo,
"One ballplayer I recall committed an offense, legal in the game, that caused baseball fans, MLB players and management and the media to hate him, have his career listed with special notations, and caused him to be subjected to the boos and taunts of fans. This went on for a few years after his offense and the discussion of this player and his offense still goes on.
That player was Roger Maris in 1961. His offense was hitting 61 home runs and breaking Babe Ruth's single season home run record".
AMAZING what we as fans tolerate and what we don't.
"One ballplayer I recall committed an offense, legal in the game, that caused baseball fans, MLB players and management and the media to hate him, have his career listed with special notations, and caused him to be subjected to the boos and taunts of fans. This went on for a few years after his offense and the discussion of this player and his offense still goes on.
That player was Roger Maris in 1961. His offense was hitting 61 home runs and breaking Babe Ruth's single season home run record".
AMAZING what we as fans tolerate and what we don't.
RR
Are you saying ALL RECORDS from 1980 to 2006 ?--Heck you are calling all players druggies etc and we havent even gotten to 2006 yet to boot
Are you saying ALL RECORDS from 1980 to 2006 ?--Heck you are calling all players druggies etc and we havent even gotten to 2006 yet to boot
Here's a compromise.
When it is time for all the cheaters like Bonds, Giambi, Palmeiro, McGwire etc.. to go into the Hall of Fame - put them in. They did set records. They should be in.
Just make sure that we put their plaques and display cases next to the men's and womens restrooms. Maybe even inside the restrooms - where they belong.
When it is time for all the cheaters like Bonds, Giambi, Palmeiro, McGwire etc.. to go into the Hall of Fame - put them in. They did set records. They should be in.
Just make sure that we put their plaques and display cases next to the men's and womens restrooms. Maybe even inside the restrooms - where they belong.
I have questions
To any webster that had an extra marital affair any time in the past. Did you were forgiven for you spouse?.... Did you forgiven you self?
I made that mistake, I was forgiven, a kid borned after that and today is playing in the minors, he had made us very happy. Guys if you don't forgive them who ever have done steroids, you are going to miss the best players in the game playing in the future.
To any webster that had an extra marital affair any time in the past. Did you were forgiven for you spouse?.... Did you forgiven you self?
I made that mistake, I was forgiven, a kid borned after that and today is playing in the minors, he had made us very happy. Guys if you don't forgive them who ever have done steroids, you are going to miss the best players in the game playing in the future.
I look at the situation this way. If no one said you CAN'T use and you did, did you cheat? If you are told you CAN'T and you do, your a cheater, right?
Then the question comes down to whether it was moral or ethical, for me it was not. The blame goes to management and the BIG DADDY's of the baseball world, who let their children get away with as much as they could until someone else (the government) said, stop. If they had kept their house in order in the first place, we wouldn't be having this discussion today.
I feel more contempt for Mark McGuire that he LIED, then he actually used something that maybe WAS legal at the time.
The confusion for me is what was ok and what was not ok. If what you did was ok at the time, then fine, you cheated yourself in compromising your health, you might suffer the consequences someday. But when asked and said you didn't do anything when we all knew you did, legal or not, you LIED, well for me, then your record should not be counted based on what is moral and ethical and I can't forgive you.
Then the question comes down to whether it was moral or ethical, for me it was not. The blame goes to management and the BIG DADDY's of the baseball world, who let their children get away with as much as they could until someone else (the government) said, stop. If they had kept their house in order in the first place, we wouldn't be having this discussion today.
I feel more contempt for Mark McGuire that he LIED, then he actually used something that maybe WAS legal at the time.
The confusion for me is what was ok and what was not ok. If what you did was ok at the time, then fine, you cheated yourself in compromising your health, you might suffer the consequences someday. But when asked and said you didn't do anything when we all knew you did, legal or not, you LIED, well for me, then your record should not be counted based on what is moral and ethical and I can't forgive you.
Forgive us as we forgive others.
We can forgive the wrong doing but there are still consequences.
MLB turned a blind eye to steroid use for years. It was their dirty little secret that they hoped would only be spoken about in football.
It should be a tip to anyone, even a blind man that when a player suddenly has better numbers in the strength categories in his forties than he had in his prime something is amiss.
As a human being grows older his/her body does not recover as fast as it did when they were 20 or even 30. What would allow a human to recover faster and heal sooner? Steroids. What would allow an older player to be stronger or as strong as in their youth? Steroids.
Steroids have their medicinal uses but when used as a performance enhancer they are being abused as is the game that the player is involved with.
I often wonder how many home rums Babe Ruth would have had if he never played in the 'Dead Ball Era' and was using steroids.
We can forgive the wrong doing but there are still consequences.
MLB turned a blind eye to steroid use for years. It was their dirty little secret that they hoped would only be spoken about in football.
It should be a tip to anyone, even a blind man that when a player suddenly has better numbers in the strength categories in his forties than he had in his prime something is amiss.
As a human being grows older his/her body does not recover as fast as it did when they were 20 or even 30. What would allow a human to recover faster and heal sooner? Steroids. What would allow an older player to be stronger or as strong as in their youth? Steroids.
Steroids have their medicinal uses but when used as a performance enhancer they are being abused as is the game that the player is involved with.
I often wonder how many home rums Babe Ruth would have had if he never played in the 'Dead Ball Era' and was using steroids.
Go ahead let em in! Instead of an asterick, how bout a hypodermic needle and a question mark?
Any body who says they should be in the hall or the books, doesn't care about the history of the game!
And don't give any Nixon-esque **** about "everybody was doing it....they just got caught"! HORSE PUCKY!
And other forms of cheating don't compare! The emery board or the corked bat could have been caught any time,by anybody ! and the players union wouldn't have had a hypo to stand on!
Trow d' bums out!!!!!!!!!
Any body who says they should be in the hall or the books, doesn't care about the history of the game!
And don't give any Nixon-esque **** about "everybody was doing it....they just got caught"! HORSE PUCKY!
And other forms of cheating don't compare! The emery board or the corked bat could have been caught any time,by anybody ! and the players union wouldn't have had a hypo to stand on!
Trow d' bums out!!!!!!!!!
Which ones do you want to keep out of the Hall / deny their records? The ones that were actually caught or the ones you THINK were using steroids or otherwise cheating?
What potential record breakers have been "convicted" so far? Palmero, Giambi, Sosa (corked bat). (No - MLB already has rules and penalties for corked bats.) Who else? What other 'convicts'?
Are we talking MLB conviction or Court Of Public Opinion? Or state or federal court? Are we including the "greenies" users in the '60's,'70's and '80's? How about a couple of pitchers who have admitted playing while tripping on acid? And the guys who admitted to using coke in the '80's?
Let's see - - Who in baseball is so squeaky clean that they will be handing down these 'sentences' - The Commissioner - Buddy Boy? The owners? (Steinbrenner and others have some history with 'convictions'.) The players association? Congress? (They are all so clean and have absolutely nothing better to do.) Jose Canseco - baseball's "cleanup" guy? Maybe the fans - yeah - there ya' go. Of course, all the fans really have to do is stop supporting MLB till this mess gets straightened out. Well - no - that won't work. The fans already have demonstrated they won't stay away.
Just want a little clarity here from the folks that would like to see the records expunged.
What potential record breakers have been "convicted" so far? Palmero, Giambi, Sosa (corked bat). (No - MLB already has rules and penalties for corked bats.) Who else? What other 'convicts'?
Are we talking MLB conviction or Court Of Public Opinion? Or state or federal court? Are we including the "greenies" users in the '60's,'70's and '80's? How about a couple of pitchers who have admitted playing while tripping on acid? And the guys who admitted to using coke in the '80's?
Let's see - - Who in baseball is so squeaky clean that they will be handing down these 'sentences' - The Commissioner - Buddy Boy? The owners? (Steinbrenner and others have some history with 'convictions'.) The players association? Congress? (They are all so clean and have absolutely nothing better to do.) Jose Canseco - baseball's "cleanup" guy? Maybe the fans - yeah - there ya' go. Of course, all the fans really have to do is stop supporting MLB till this mess gets straightened out. Well - no - that won't work. The fans already have demonstrated they won't stay away.
Just want a little clarity here from the folks that would like to see the records expunged.
Itsagreatgame said:
Just want a little clarity here from the folks that would like to see the records expunged.
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I am the only one here that feels that way. Why because I want the double standard stopped. Danny Almonte cheated and got his records expunged. Mark Mcguire cheated and he got a pass, and still is being considered for the HOF. Give me a break.
Baseball as a whole needs to live up to the "mantra" that what's important is the "integrity of the game". Baseball en-totale has been knowingly enabling the steroid boosted performances of these players for years. These are not "gifted" athletes in the true sense of the word, as the players truely had to be in the 50's. These are fabricated "fakes" that do not deserve the hero label nor the "idol" worship that the players in the 50's deserved and earned.
It's time for baseball to make the meaning of "for the integrity of the game" mean something honorable again.
Who's guilty? All of the players, none are innocent because they all knew that this was going on and did nothing to stop it. In fact the MLBPA is totally against the Olympic "standard" no drug-detection test that our Olympians have to take. And then you wonder why baseball was voted out of the 2008 Olympics.
It's time to stop the lying, the cheating, and buffoonary.
Just want a little clarity here from the folks that would like to see the records expunged.
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I am the only one here that feels that way. Why because I want the double standard stopped. Danny Almonte cheated and got his records expunged. Mark Mcguire cheated and he got a pass, and still is being considered for the HOF. Give me a break.
Baseball as a whole needs to live up to the "mantra" that what's important is the "integrity of the game". Baseball en-totale has been knowingly enabling the steroid boosted performances of these players for years. These are not "gifted" athletes in the true sense of the word, as the players truely had to be in the 50's. These are fabricated "fakes" that do not deserve the hero label nor the "idol" worship that the players in the 50's deserved and earned.
It's time for baseball to make the meaning of "for the integrity of the game" mean something honorable again.
Who's guilty? All of the players, none are innocent because they all knew that this was going on and did nothing to stop it. In fact the MLBPA is totally against the Olympic "standard" no drug-detection test that our Olympians have to take. And then you wonder why baseball was voted out of the 2008 Olympics.
It's time to stop the lying, the cheating, and buffoonary.
Child athletes or their parents were coming to realize that if they wanted a shot at college or pro ball, they had to indulge in steroid use like the pros.
http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofacts/Steroids.html
1950's
http://www.nida.nih.gov/ResearchReports/Steroids/AnabolicSteroids.html
http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofacts/Steroids.html
1950's
http://www.nida.nih.gov/ResearchReports/Steroids/AnabolicSteroids.html
Another good article on steroids. 1950's and on ? Say it ain't so Hank.
http://www.aap.org/family/steroids.htm
http://www.aap.org/family/steroids.htm
Bonds given special dispensation to play until 2007 to break Aaron's record.
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2005/06/24/200805.php
So much for MLB retaliating against cheating.
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2005/06/24/200805.php
So much for MLB retaliating against cheating.
Willie Bobo
Do really think a good athlete has to use steroids ?---you are inferring that they all do and that is , in my mind at least, totally unfair because many DO NOT USE STEROIDS even if want to think so
Why do you bring "Hank" into this discussion?
Do really think a good athlete has to use steroids ?---you are inferring that they all do and that is , in my mind at least, totally unfair because many DO NOT USE STEROIDS even if want to think so
Why do you bring "Hank" into this discussion?
Hank never denied using. He always said when confronted, "Steroids won't help you hit a ball."
He played 23 years until age 42. Previous ball players were in decline at age 35. At age 39 , Hank hit 40 home runs.
Players who got big suddenly in their careers or stayed healthy longer are suspect in my view. The expression pumped up was often used but was always thought to mean that the player lifted weights in the off season.
Even Babe Ruth was in decline by age 39, hitting only 22 home runs. Ruth was the most prolific home run hitter in baseball after the 'Dead Ball Era'. Steroids did not exist in his day.
Today, ballplayers are playing into their 40's on a regular basis seemingly having found a fountain of youth.
He played 23 years until age 42. Previous ball players were in decline at age 35. At age 39 , Hank hit 40 home runs.
Players who got big suddenly in their careers or stayed healthy longer are suspect in my view. The expression pumped up was often used but was always thought to mean that the player lifted weights in the off season.
Even Babe Ruth was in decline by age 39, hitting only 22 home runs. Ruth was the most prolific home run hitter in baseball after the 'Dead Ball Era'. Steroids did not exist in his day.
Today, ballplayers are playing into their 40's on a regular basis seemingly having found a fountain of youth.
Baseball players didn't even used to lift weights. A former major league pitcher in the 80's NEVER LIFTED A WEIGHT!! They didn't take care of their bodies like they do now. Todays atheletes are a whole different machine even without steroids.
Records are records and the players of today who are labled cheaters and liars should only have to give up their records if the the players who played in the evil era of segregation give up their records (and places int he Hall of Fame) first. This, of course, would include Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig, both of whom probably could not have carried Josh Gibson's jock strap.
NO question steroid use is most likely very unhealthy and a tool used to give an unfair advantage to the athlete. Steroid use should be dealt with harshly.
My concern is wiith people who judge based not on the facts, but on premise and supposition. Sosa's guilty, McGwire's guilty, Bond's guilty, now Hank's guilty. I am certain after 54 years of a few things - one of them being not everything is as it appears to be; the other is that this country has always operated on the premise that one is innocent until proven guilty.
Think what you want about any given individual. Voice your opinion. If you are undeniably certain that an individual or athlete is doing something that is in your opinion immoral, illegal, unhealthy or is a bad role model for your child, do the only thing that you can do right now to voice your opinion and have some guts behind it: Don't partake. Don't be a patron; don't go to any games or buy any memorabilia or anything related to MLB or MLBPA. Put some teeth into your message instead of just ranting and raving in a forum that most likely will be "kind" to baseball in the long run. We are all kind of selfish like that.
Personally, I'll keep going to games and enjoying the sport I love. A few bad apples are not going to ruin the 'integrity of the game'. Right or wrong, the game is what it is and it's never been lilly-white. Let me repeat that: The game has never been lilly-white. Just the facts, Mam.
- - - still - - - -
IT'S A GREAT GAME, Mr. Weaver........
My concern is wiith people who judge based not on the facts, but on premise and supposition. Sosa's guilty, McGwire's guilty, Bond's guilty, now Hank's guilty. I am certain after 54 years of a few things - one of them being not everything is as it appears to be; the other is that this country has always operated on the premise that one is innocent until proven guilty.
Think what you want about any given individual. Voice your opinion. If you are undeniably certain that an individual or athlete is doing something that is in your opinion immoral, illegal, unhealthy or is a bad role model for your child, do the only thing that you can do right now to voice your opinion and have some guts behind it: Don't partake. Don't be a patron; don't go to any games or buy any memorabilia or anything related to MLB or MLBPA. Put some teeth into your message instead of just ranting and raving in a forum that most likely will be "kind" to baseball in the long run. We are all kind of selfish like that.
Personally, I'll keep going to games and enjoying the sport I love. A few bad apples are not going to ruin the 'integrity of the game'. Right or wrong, the game is what it is and it's never been lilly-white. Let me repeat that: The game has never been lilly-white. Just the facts, Mam.
- - - still - - - -
IT'S A GREAT GAME, Mr. Weaver........
I don't go to MLB games. MLB ballparks are an insult to the inteligence of the average human being. Ticket prices are through the roof. Concessions are insanely overpriced. The quality of the game is just a memory.
The game that the MLB puts on is little different than the average Little League All Star game. I expect and demand more from players getting millions of dollars. I expect pitchers who can go nine innings for a win. I expect DH's who can hit for power and high average. I expect fielders who can make the routine play and occasionally the great play to remind me why they are out there and not me. Instead I see pitchers who are considered stars who pitch five innings and turn the game over to the bull pen specialists. I see errors on routine grounders and dropped pop ups. I see pitchers who walk in the winning run. I see .250 hitters getting millions of dollars. I see supposed big hitters leading the league with 30 home runs on the season. Outfielers who can't make a decent throw to home plate. I don't need to pay for that.
I don't subscibe to sports channels. Even they are finding baseball to be boring and make more news with the actions of these supposed professionals not in the play of the game.
Where are the base stealers? Where are the guys who can actually bunt? Where are the guys who know how to hit behind the runners?
Am I asking too much?
Is it asking too much to expect a routine ground ball to be caught and thrown to first? Is it asking too much to expect a fly ball to be caught? Is it asking too much to have outfielders who can make a runner actually run tagging up from third? Is it asking too much of these millions dollar ball players to get four hits in ten at bats?
I see better games in the sandlots and Little League parks at a far better price.
The game that the MLB puts on is little different than the average Little League All Star game. I expect and demand more from players getting millions of dollars. I expect pitchers who can go nine innings for a win. I expect DH's who can hit for power and high average. I expect fielders who can make the routine play and occasionally the great play to remind me why they are out there and not me. Instead I see pitchers who are considered stars who pitch five innings and turn the game over to the bull pen specialists. I see errors on routine grounders and dropped pop ups. I see pitchers who walk in the winning run. I see .250 hitters getting millions of dollars. I see supposed big hitters leading the league with 30 home runs on the season. Outfielers who can't make a decent throw to home plate. I don't need to pay for that.
I don't subscibe to sports channels. Even they are finding baseball to be boring and make more news with the actions of these supposed professionals not in the play of the game.
Where are the base stealers? Where are the guys who can actually bunt? Where are the guys who know how to hit behind the runners?
Am I asking too much?
Is it asking too much to expect a routine ground ball to be caught and thrown to first? Is it asking too much to expect a fly ball to be caught? Is it asking too much to have outfielders who can make a runner actually run tagging up from third? Is it asking too much of these millions dollar ball players to get four hits in ten at bats?
I see better games in the sandlots and Little League parks at a far better price.
Why blame the players?!? What about MLB for not testing these guys? If it was/is as prominent as everyone speculates, you cannont tell me MLB didn't know! Why punish the players?
by: Don Groth
Hi sports fans. I hope all of you are happy and healthy! ...
My topic this time is about the much talked about lately, use or misuse of steroids in sports today, especially in pro baseball. It's a sad situation!
Ex-pro baseball player Ken Caminitti admits he was using steroids the year he had his best season and won the National League MVP award when he was a member of the San Diego Padres. He hit .326 with 40 home runs and 130 RBI's. Caminitti was quoted by Sports Illustrated saying, "I believe that over 50% of the players today in major league baseball use steroids."
Star Arizona Diamondbacks pitcher Curt Schilling in an ESPN interview was quoted saying, "I also believe at least half of the pro-baseball players today use steroids and many of them joke about it. Retired slugger Jose Canseco in an interview with Sports Illustrated and ESPN was quoted saying, "I believe steroid use in pro baseball today is as high as 85%!" Canseco is in the process of writing a book about it. He admits the use of steroids his whole career.
Texas Ranger pitcher Kenny Rogers told Sports Illustrated, "Basically, steroids can jump you to a level or two. The average player can become a star and the star player can become a superstar. And the superstar? Forget it! He can do things we've never seen before!" "No one denies it is a problem.", baseball commissioner Bud Selig said in a national interview. Selig continues, "It's a problem we can and must deal with now! I'm very worried about this!"
Hi sports fans. I hope all of you are happy and healthy! ...
My topic this time is about the much talked about lately, use or misuse of steroids in sports today, especially in pro baseball. It's a sad situation!
Ex-pro baseball player Ken Caminitti admits he was using steroids the year he had his best season and won the National League MVP award when he was a member of the San Diego Padres. He hit .326 with 40 home runs and 130 RBI's. Caminitti was quoted by Sports Illustrated saying, "I believe that over 50% of the players today in major league baseball use steroids."
Star Arizona Diamondbacks pitcher Curt Schilling in an ESPN interview was quoted saying, "I also believe at least half of the pro-baseball players today use steroids and many of them joke about it. Retired slugger Jose Canseco in an interview with Sports Illustrated and ESPN was quoted saying, "I believe steroid use in pro baseball today is as high as 85%!" Canseco is in the process of writing a book about it. He admits the use of steroids his whole career.
Texas Ranger pitcher Kenny Rogers told Sports Illustrated, "Basically, steroids can jump you to a level or two. The average player can become a star and the star player can become a superstar. And the superstar? Forget it! He can do things we've never seen before!" "No one denies it is a problem.", baseball commissioner Bud Selig said in a national interview. Selig continues, "It's a problem we can and must deal with now! I'm very worried about this!"
quote:Baseball as a whole needs to live up to the "mantra" that what's important is the "integrity of the game". Baseball en-totale has been knowingly enabling the steroid boosted performances of these players for years. These are not "gifted" athletes in the true sense of the word, as the players truely had to be in the 50's. These are fabricated "fakes" that do not deserve the hero label nor the "idol" worship that the players in the 50's deserved and earned.
It's time for baseball to make the meaning of "for the integrity of the game" mean something honorable again.
Ramrod:
What you say is so true and I fear that MLB reflects much of what is wrong with our society today
Our society looks the other way when athletes misbehave. This begins when "the stars" are young athletes and parents, coaches, teachers, look the other way when bad character (lack of integrity) is displayed. WillieBobo: good posts...thanks
The only problems that I have with the steroid discussions:
1) They weren't illegal for baseball players to use: and,
2) No one has pointed to a single scientific study that suggests taking steroids helped a player with his eye-hand coordination and hitting a baseball...maybe the bulking up helped for distance-hitting...but I haven't seen ANYTHING where steroids helped a baseball players eye-hand coordination for hitting.
I'm likely one of 6 people in America that is a huge Barry Bonds fan. Liked his dad, Bobby, too. Followed Barry since his days at ASU.
I would be embarrassed if I were major league pitchers and I intentionally walked him 200 times in a SEASON!
I believe that he is taking the 2005 season "off" to be completely "clean" of whatever he might have been taking.
All of the rest is just bs.
1) They weren't illegal for baseball players to use: and,
2) No one has pointed to a single scientific study that suggests taking steroids helped a player with his eye-hand coordination and hitting a baseball...maybe the bulking up helped for distance-hitting...but I haven't seen ANYTHING where steroids helped a baseball players eye-hand coordination for hitting.
I'm likely one of 6 people in America that is a huge Barry Bonds fan. Liked his dad, Bobby, too. Followed Barry since his days at ASU.
I would be embarrassed if I were major league pitchers and I intentionally walked him 200 times in a SEASON!
I believe that he is taking the 2005 season "off" to be completely "clean" of whatever he might have been taking.
All of the rest is just bs.
Beenthere:
I guess I make fan #7. I personally cannot see how people can overlook his multiple MVP's, single season home run title, walk record and soon to be lifetime home run title.
Barry's had a bad rap with the press for a long time. Some of it sef-induced. The rest probably not deserved. Maybe he's guilty of steroid use. At least it would appear that way. But there is no denying his work ethic and his skill level. He's simply the best at what he does.
I guess I make fan #7. I personally cannot see how people can overlook his multiple MVP's, single season home run title, walk record and soon to be lifetime home run title.
Barry's had a bad rap with the press for a long time. Some of it sef-induced. The rest probably not deserved. Maybe he's guilty of steroid use. At least it would appear that way. But there is no denying his work ethic and his skill level. He's simply the best at what he does.