should hs players auto take a strike entire game

Has this coach been there a while or is he young and new? He may be right about the leadership and individuals part but I'm not going to comment on that since I don't know the kids.

As for that philosophy I hate it. Simply put once that reputation gets out that your team takes until a strike you are going to be seeing a LOT of first pitch fastballs down the heart. I don't like taking unless you know you have a pitcher struggling and he's thrown 4 straight or 7 out of 9 out of the zone. Make him work to throw to you but you shouldn't need a take sign for this - teach the kids what to look for. These kids paid $7 million dollars for these bats so let them use them.

Now that being said it still doesn't excuse poor averages. You still get two more strikes to work with. Using your example of the kid who took the fastball and got out on two good curves - the taking of the first pitch didn't get him out. It was his inability to A) hit a curveball in the zone or B) his inability to lay off a curveball in the dirt or C) a combonation of the two. Yes in hindsight it would be smarter to attack the fastball but you still have to be a hitter and do something with those curveballs.

So not a big fan of this philosophy but also sounds like a bunch of guys who either can't hit period or using the philosophy as a crutch rather than being competitive and making the most of the rest of their at bat.

So, has taking a strike increased their batting averages? I doubt it...it only serves to put them in the hole quicker, thus more anxiety, thus more pressure to get a hit with less chances to do so...we've always subscribed to the philosophy that, on average, the best pitch you'll see in you at bat is the first one...jump on it if it is there.

Yes, there are times to take a pitch, but just making it arbitrarily obligatory...doesn't, in my opinion, serve any real purpose. Definately doesn't make bad hitters better.

It's very easy to spot trends and this one would be figured out by the 3rd or 4th batter of the game.

I know one college team that when they are ahead 0-2 or 1-2, next pitch is a letter high fastball, next pitch is knee high outside corner fastball...nearly every time. Saw an all American pitcher last week, if the first pitch was a curveball strike, the next pitch was a fastball knee high...automatic.

All you do by being predictable is put the advantage in the opponents favor.

What should you do about it? Well, you have two choices.

1. Scream and shout and run about
2. Take it

Good luck.

The best pitch a batter might see is the first pitch in an AB. It's a terrible approach and turns aggressive hitting into defensive hitting. There's a difference in working the count as opposed to taking the first pitch.

I can see if a pitcher hasn't come close to the plate and a batter is forcing his hand to throw a strike and a lets a called strike go by but to automatically take strike one is the wrong approach.

Not a fan of this. Sometimes(often) the best pitch to hit is the first. Puts a kid in the hole. Other team wises up to the practice quickly. Depends on the kid however. But in general not a fan of this.

I don't think your going to find many if any people on this site that are going to say they believe this is a good approach. But that is really not the issue. What are the players going to do and how are they going to deal with it? They can use this as a reason for hitting .100 .200 against hs pitching. They can use it as an excuse for failure.

How many of these hitters have been 1-1 2-1 3-1? How have they hit in these counts? Worse case scenario they are 0-1. Now you just hit and forget about the fact that your coach is putting you in this situation. Or you can use it as an excuse to fail.

I can tell you if they are hitting .100 .200 against hs pitching just because they are taking a strike every ab they are not very good hitters in the first place.

Ted Williams always took more pitches in his first at bat then any other at bat trying to work the count so he could see all the pitches that a pitcher had. With that said few if any hitters have the ability Ted Williams had and even Ted said his batting average suffered in the first at bat of the game. From what I have watched over the years batters have to change their approach the same as pitchers. Hitters need to be very selective on first pitch hitting knowing what they are looking for, sometimes its not a fastball. I have never seen a good hitter who always took a first pitch. As players move to higher levels of baseball you must be able to hit the first pitch hanging curve ball or high change up as you can't allow pitchers to get automatically ahead in the count. In a game this year I have seen a batter hit a High outside first pitch fastball over Right field fence, Next at bat hit Hanging curveball over Left field fence, and in third at bat hit low change up over centerfield fence. All these pitches were first pitch of the at bat and both hitter and coach were in sync to what was coming.In all cases the pitch count would have been 0-1 if not swung at.

The coach has been a varsity assistant for many years and a head varsity for 1 or 2 seasons although this is his first head varsity season at our school after 2 seasons of assistant coach and head jv coach. Interesting to note that as head jv coach he did not have this take a strike rule.

The comments about the rest of the at bat and still need to hit the curve are well taken. It seems that the players are now very defensive in their approaches and are just trying to put the ball into play. Also, many other schools do know of this rule and the players are seeing first pitch fastballs. In fact one team started off our first 6 batters that way, in the first inning and against our 2 best hitters.

Should the players bring this up to the coach or just deal with it and the losing?

Best to let the coach call his own game as few coaches like to be told their job. Most coaches figure out what doesn't work on their own.

Agree, the tactic is too easily picked up on by opposing coachs. Then its too easy to get to an 0-2, then have to battle best pitchs. My youngest had a coach last season (12 quality level travel) who had the take signal on even with his strongest hitters up against questionable pitchers/not the best catchers. On a few instances, he even had take signal on with only 2B occupied. The way I was always taught, when you have hitters who are on a tear, you don't take the bat out of their hands, let em drive that down the pipe 1st pitch FB. looked at last years book & as 4 hole, youngest started out season 13 for 17 with six 2B's & a 3B. Over the season, only hit into one FC, & ended up batting .614 against mainly AAA's & Maj's. 3 & 5 hole were no slouch either. Top of lineup all had over 200AB's. In discussing the 1st pitch take with my boy & with best friend (3hole) all I could say was to use this as a lesson.. to hold their tongues & do what the coach wants.

There's probably a lot more wrong with a 1-6 team than just taking the first strike. I can't see blaming the team record on the hitting strategy. That said, while there are times to take a first strike it's not a sound strategy as a constant. In each at bat there's probably one good pitch to drive. If it's the first pitch why take it for a first strike?

I'm a believer in selective hitting. For the first strike the hitter should be framed in on his best pitch to hit. If he sees it, rip away. If it's not there, take.

Do you think the coach is trying to run up pitch counts on opposing pitchers to get them out of the game? Or is he trying to get his hitters ahead in the count?

You have to make the pitcher work, especially in highschool where the pitchers don't always have the greatest command. I agree with taking the first pitch almost always, but not to the extent this coach says. On the 1st pitch you have to look for a fastball in your little 6" X 6" window. If its not there, let it go.

These kids were probably swinging at everything (as deduced from their extremely low BA's), so the coach had to install some sort of dicipline.

I think its a horrible strategy unless the pitcher is struggling to throw strikes. Many times the first pitch FB is the best pitch a hitter will see!

quote:

The coach has been a varsity assistant for many years and a head varsity for 1 or 2 seasons although this is his first head varsity season at our school after 2 seasons of assistant coach and head jv coach. Interesting to note that as head jv coach he did not have this take a strike rule.

If this coach was a JV coach just before getting the varsity gig, he must've had many of the same players on JV and from the sound of it based on the BA's it would appear they're undisciplined hitters, why didn't he use the take-first-strike approach on JV if these same hitters were under him assuming that's the case?

Why wouldn't the coach try and work on these issues at the JV level so they're better prepared and more disciplined to hit varsity pitching. Varsity pitchers can throw strikes so also what they might've got away with on JV won't fly on varsity because the game is much different between the two levels and the pitchinng is much better on varsity level.

MLB averages for 1st pitch .340 range.

Average with 2 strikes .140 to 220.

I have seen coaches try this rule before over many games. Like so many things, it's well intentioned, but it never turns out well.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
MLB averages for 1st pitch .340 range.

Average with 2 strikes .140 to 220.

I have seen coaches try this rule before over many games. Like so many things, it's well intentioned, but it never turns out well.

That is because MLB players typically look for their pitch in that tiny window, otherwise they let it go. It almost sounds like these highschool kids were swinging at everything on the 1st pitch. What is the MLB BA on an 0-1 count? I bet its better than on 0-0....

I firmly believe that in HS the first pitch may be the best pitch a player sees BUT the coach has to know his hitters---Yes certain situations call for taking the first pitch but at the HS level most times I want to see the hitters ready to hack at the first pitch--to have a rule for all hitters "take the first pitch" is ludicrous.


Also MLB percentages mean squat here because4 we are talking about HS players not pros---the know here for the coach is to KNOW YOUR PLAYERS

The only time that take the first pitch is effective is in Little League with strict pitch counts. You have fire balling 12 year olds facing 10 year olds and want the 12 year old out of the game as soon as possible. Most LL's take a lot of pitches trying to get to the next guy.

But anything over LL it is a losing proposition.

quote:

Originally posted by td25:

What is the MLB BA on an 0-1 count? I bet its better than on 0-0....

I have exact numbers for 2009 now:

First pitch .339
0-1 .317
2 strike counts .156 to .233

LL has no bearing here---we are talking HS varsity here--also a supposed high talent team that is 1-6

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:

Also MLB percentages mean squat here because4 we are talking about HS players not pros---the know here for the coach is to KNOW YOUR PLAYERS

Read Ted William's book, The Science of Hitting. He ALWAYS took the 1st pitch in a game he saw, and mostly always took the 1st pitch of an AB unless it was in his little window. Not only does it make the pitcher work, but it also helps with your timing. A highschooler's approach shouldn't be any different.

great chart... thanks

as for the original question: Dang, why can't I get these guys on my schedule. Even after it's 100% apparent you are taking to one he's still taking???

The biggest key to hitting outside of swing mechanics is Approach. As players get older that approach has to change as pitchers can throw most of their pitches for strikes. A pitchers job is to keep the hitter guessing and a good hitter will keep the pitcher guessing. I have heard one pitch one zone from the stands many times and for the most part agree but that pitch and zone has to change from time to time.You hear hitter saying I'm only going to hit fastballs in my favorite position on 0-0 counts and most of the time after a little scouting they are just as predictable as the coach in this post and never happen to see that particular pitch.

This is Ted Willams' chart. Every player should have their own chart in their mind. If the first strike is in the red or orange why take? It's the hitter's compacted hit zone.

td

I have said this before and I will say it again "There was only one Ted Williams"---I am aware of what his theories are, very well aware, but HS ball is not the major leagues---a HS hitter getting behind 0-1 in the count can kill the at bat for him--he then becomes a defensive hitter not an aggressive offensive hitter

I'm with TR on this - why are we always comparing hitters to Ted Williams? I understand he was probably the greatest hitter and definately top 3 but what works for him isn't what will work for all. To me it goes beyond a MLB versus HS ability level. It's more of a Jimmy and Ted and Johnny thing. What works for Jimmy won't work for Ted and won't work for Johnny. We're not producing robots here and each person has their own strengths and weaknesses.

As Coach May said in the hitting forum if you could teach to hit the ball like Ted Williams you wouldn't be here in this forum - you would be vacationing somewhere nice. Teach each kid to be their own hitter. Teach each kid to know their own strengths and weaknesses. Teach each kid how to be successful in approaching at bats.

In regards to the opening post as I said earlier this is a terrible philosophy to have but it still doesn't mean you can't be successful as a hitter. But you can't teach every kid to be the same on every aspect of approach and hitting style.

I totally agree with TR you can't fall behind or you become defensive. I have always believed you look for one pitch in half of the plate inner or outer and swing away with confidence. After you get ahead you can tighten up zone a little. Too many times I've watched hitters take fastball right down the middle then take pitchers "get a strike curve ball" because they are told to hit no curveballs until 2 strikes and then swing at pitchers best curveball on 0-2 count. Aggressive hitters with knowledge of what they want to accomplish are most dangerous.

All I know is my Dad would LOVE this coach!!! Drives him nuts when players swing at the first pitch and ground out or hit lazy fly balls.

The OP wasn't just talking about taking the first pitch....it was not swinging till you took a first strike..could be 3rd pitch till you take that strike. But even a so-so pitcher will pick up on that and take something off to start throwing 1st or second pitch strikes. I'm sure he had a good reason for coming up with this rule..but like most rules they are times that they need to be broken.

Bottom line for a hitter, especially at the HS level, hit the first pitch you like---you may never see another one that you like in that at bat

One amazing thing about hitting is there are probably far more opinions about approaches to hitting than there are truly good hitters to absorb and execute them.
Personally, I don't know how we can have good or informed views on the OP questions and facts because there seems, from my reading, to be more going on with the team than just taking a strike.
The coach has raised issues of leadership and playing for yourself as part of apparently being 1-6. Maybe this take a strike is one way of dealing with some of those issues. It isn't immediately apparent to me how they correlate but I doubt the OP would be able to summarize all pertinent information, either. In my view, if you are a "DI" NLI, taking a strike should not be any big deal against most HS pitching. You still have 2 to work with and far more talent than most pitchers.
Other things to consider: some MLB teams grade Milb AB's based on the number of pitches per AB, with more pitches per AB scored higher. If you don't average close to 6 pitchers per AB, that is a failing grade in some MLB organizations.
One adjustment our son made/was coached to make in college and Milb was the idea that he would want to see every pitch any pitcher had by the end of his first AB. He did not want the AB to end before every pitch was seen. This helped him, helped every teammate, and drove up pitch counts to help AB's later in the game. As this became known through scouting reports, he got some pretty fat first strikes later in the game and season to which he readily adjusted.
There are many ways for hitters to be successful.
Finally, this approach of taking a strike was implemented one Summer in the Reds minor league system as a way of developing plate discipline and being a better hitter. The reaction was mental. Many hitters for the team I know about were defeated thinking they had to take a strike. Once they defeated themselves, the pitchers had it easy.
It was the similar for pitchers, they would start one game and pitch 4 innings and pitch in relief in their next outing for 4 innings. Mentally, some pitchers just refused to adjust.
While I would not coach a team to have every player take a strike in every AB for an entire season, I could envision there could be situations where a HS coach has a very good reason to do it for a select number of games/game. Establishing leadership and discipline, along with being unselfish, might be some legitimate reasons.
Since we don't have the coaches input, I'm sure not about to attack the approach without them.

What some fail to realize is taking a perfectly good pitch to hit does way more damage to a hs hitter than simply going down one strike. Is the mental approach damage for that ab that causes me the most concern. When a player believes you have confidence in him he has confidence or more of it in himself. When he does not believe you have confidence in him he will lose some confidence in himself as well.

When you tell kids to take a strike and they get a grooved pitch right down the heart for a strike what goes through their mind? I can tell you its not a positive thought. They become timid and they become defensive in their approach. They get frustrated thinking "well there goes the best pitch I am going to see and I had to take it." They are so afraid they are going to swing at a bad pitch they can't hit a good pitch.

I have always taught an approach of being selectively aggressive. Just because a pitch is a ball does not mean its not a great pitch to hammer. A hanging breaking pitch up out of the zone is a ball , right? A fastball down the heart a little high for a kid that loves this pitch might be a ball but for him its hammer time. And a strike on the black knee high on the outside corner might be a strike but for many its not a pitch they are going to be sitting on and wanting when they have less than two strikes.

Know your pitch or pitches. Know the situation and what pitch is a good pitch in that situation. If your not looking for something you wont hammer anything. Look to hit and be ready to swing - expect a strike and be ready to hit vs Expecting a ball and being surprised when its a strike.

Like I said in my first post on this subject I don't believe you will find many people who will agree with this coaches approach for his players. What can the hitter do about it? Flush it and understand he is going to be hitting with one strike on him. Do not allow it to spoil your at bat.

Your son is not Ted Williams. There was only one Ted Williams. Your son is who he is and he has to figure out what he can do and what works best for him. Trying to be someone else will only stop you from being who you are. Find out who you are and what you do best and what works for you.

I was typing at the same time you posted that infielddad. Thats a very good post. You make some outstanding points. And yes without knowing everything going on with this team we have no real idea whats going on.

quote:

All I know is my Dad would LOVE this coach!!! Drives him nuts when players swing at the first pitch and ground out or hit lazy fly balls.

Sometimes hitters miss a fat pitch and get on top of it or under it. It happens. Swinging at pitches out of the zone will usually result in the pitcher winning those battles.

I'll take an aggressive approach any day of the week. My son was an aggressive hitter early in the count and his varsity coach never tried to change him.

As for Ted Williams, there's only one of him. I can't go by him because a typical HS ballplayer isn't gonna be compared to Ted Williams.

Coach,
As Mel Allen used to say, "How about that!"
One terrific coach in North Carolina and a dumb Dad in CA. both typing at the same time about the mental aspects of taking a strike. Boy, I am walking (typing) in tall cotton today.
As Merv Rettenmund said to our son when he learned some of our son's approaches to hitting originated with "Dad,": "Son, you need a new Dad."
Coach, your comments on taking a pitch are not limited to HS. Many of those Milb hitters were frustrated, I mean frustrated.

quote:

Finally, this approach of taking a strike was implemented one Summer in the Reds minor league system as a way of developing plate discipline and being a better hitter. The reaction was mental. Many hitters for the team I know about were defeated thinking they had to take a strike. Once they defeated themselves, the pitchers had it easy.

The input here is outstanding, and very much appreciated. Let me clarify a few things. The rule “take a strike” not take a pitch started with the first scrimmage game in February against a very weak team which we spanked. It then continued with the first official game of the season wherein the other coach figured it out and proceeded to throw 6 first pitch fastballs (our players knew this). The teams record at that point was 0-0 not 1-6 (we lost that game 6-5 after mounting a comeback when coach lifted the rule for last few innings). Prior to that the team competed in a very competitive thanksgiving tourney and did very well without the rule of take a strike. In fact the team played similar teams ability wise as we are losing to now.

It does seem that the Reds analogy is right on with these kids. And yes the D1 guys are hitting well (one of the players ignores the rule and is hitting 550, the other listens and is hitting 350). The players were swinging fairly disciplined with a few lapses in judgement which created first pitch pop ups and weak grounders but the positive hits far outweighed the weak ones.

I believe the coach is playing for more walks and also trying to run the pitch count up. The problem is in our league we have very mature experienced pitchers that do not walk many players and have good command. It is a very tough baseball league. In fact last year we had a first rounder and a few other draft picks as well, the first rounder signed.

thanks coach may,

quote:

What some fail to realize is taking a perfectly good pitch to hit does way more damage to a hs hitter than simply going down one strike. Is the mental approach damage for that ab that causes me the most concern. When a player believes you have confidence in him he has confidence or more of it in himself. When he does not believe you have confidence in him he will lose some confidence in himself as well.

When you tell kids to take a strike and they get a grooved pitch right down the heart for a strike what goes through their mind? I can tell you its not a positive thought. They become timid and they become defensive in their approach. They get frustrated thinking "well there goes the best pitch I am going to see and I had to take it." They are so afraid they are going to swing at a bad pitch they can't hit a good pitch.

This is right on. This is not meant in anyway to bag on the coach. Just trying to get some perspective which has been great. The coach has his heart in this and is trying very hard to make it successful. At the end of the day we understand the kids still have to play, pitch ball, hit ball, field ball.

Well, I for one am not at all sure how leadership, chemistry and discipline are instilled if one DI kid ignores the instruction to take a 1st strike, and isn't disciplined for doing so.
I think Coach May is so correct that this is mental more than anything from your last post. It may not be just "mental" about hitting, though.
If the players have the same issues and questions you are asking about the coach and strategy, and one player literally ignores the Coach, the "mental" aspects are much more involved than just with each AB.
Since I happen to believe leadership are chemistry and critical components to success in HS and college baseball, it would seem the team could be sorely lacking in both, with results that are pretty predictable.

thanks infield dad, point very well taken, the player did this for the first time yesterday not before. We think he got very very frustrated (no excuse)of being pitched around and finally got a fastball down the middle.

I would have to say as a coach I would sit the guy hitting .550 if he ignores what I told him to do regardless of results. Some coaches bunt, some hit and run ,and some hit away but every coach I know want the hitter to follow his rules. I don't agree with taking until you get a strike but if players can get away with not listening that would be more of a concern about the coach than his strategy. Maybe this hitter is getting a green light.