RJM- In your opinion, should Koufax be in the HOF?
RJM,
For a guy who wants to liven up the board, you sure are bashful about expressing a definite opinion.
1. Do you believe Jack Morris belongs in the hall?
2. Do you believe Sandy Koufax belongs in the hall?
3. Do you believe Jack Morris is more deserving, less deserving, or equally deserving of the hall as Sandy Koufax?
Stop hiding behind what some articles say. Tell us once and for all what you think.
For a guy who wants to liven up the board, you sure are bashful about expressing a definite opinion.
1. Do you believe Jack Morris belongs in the hall?
2. Do you believe Sandy Koufax belongs in the hall?
3. Do you believe Jack Morris is more deserving, less deserving, or equally deserving of the hall as Sandy Koufax?
Stop hiding behind what some articles say. Tell us once and for all what you think.
Someone asked earlier about listing certain players who dominated the game, but only for a short time.
From my teenage days as a Reds fan, the guy I remember is George Foster. For about 4-5 years he tore up everyone and everything, was the first guy in a long time to that point, and for a long time thereafter, to hit over 50 HR in a seson, and was I believe the first player to command a $2 million annual salary when he signed a free agent deal with the Mets (whereupon his career promptly nose dived). Worst part was, he and his personal manager blew his money and his career ended before he could really earn it back.
There was also a time, before he became a joke, that Jose Canseco was the most feared hitter in all of baseball.
Albert Belle also had a run like that before his hip went south on him.
Pitching wise, Luis Tiant had about as strong a run in the mid/late 1960's as you could ask for. The guy we all remember was the tricky fellow who used all sorts of different windups, arm angles and pitches to baffle hitters in the mid-1970's. But that was after a broken shoulder blade bone scuttled his earlier run as one of baseball's hardest throwers of that time.
And oh yeah, Koufax belongs in the Hall.
From my teenage days as a Reds fan, the guy I remember is George Foster. For about 4-5 years he tore up everyone and everything, was the first guy in a long time to that point, and for a long time thereafter, to hit over 50 HR in a seson, and was I believe the first player to command a $2 million annual salary when he signed a free agent deal with the Mets (whereupon his career promptly nose dived). Worst part was, he and his personal manager blew his money and his career ended before he could really earn it back.
There was also a time, before he became a joke, that Jose Canseco was the most feared hitter in all of baseball.
Albert Belle also had a run like that before his hip went south on him.
Pitching wise, Luis Tiant had about as strong a run in the mid/late 1960's as you could ask for. The guy we all remember was the tricky fellow who used all sorts of different windups, arm angles and pitches to baffle hitters in the mid-1970's. But that was after a broken shoulder blade bone scuttled his earlier run as one of baseball's hardest throwers of that time.
And oh yeah, Koufax belongs in the Hall.
quote:Originally posted by Swampboy:
RJM,
For a guy who wants to liven up the board, you sure are bashful about expressing a definite opinion.
1. Do you believe Jack Morris belongs in the hall?
2. Do you believe Sandy Koufax belongs in the hall?
3. Do you believe Jack Morris is more deserving, less deserving, or equally deserving of the hall as Sandy Koufax?
Stop hiding behind what some articles say. Tell us once and for all what you think.
I was just old enough in my preteens to remember these seasons. I remember betting a whole dollar the Dodgers would beat the Twins in 1965. A dollar was a month's worth of milk money. It was a treat to watch any combination of Koufax, Marichal and Gibson on The Game of the Week.
Given the time and era I don't question Koufax being elected into the HOF. But I question if in this day and age with forty more years worth of pitchers inducted, if a pitcher dominating for four years would get elected in this era. It's the basis of the article I saw sometime in the past couple of years. It's why I asked the question. Like PG said, it's a very unique situation.
Given the time and era I don't question Koufax being elected into the HOF. But I question if in this day and age with forty more years worth of pitchers inducted, if a pitcher dominating for four years would get elected in this era. It's the basis of the article I saw sometime in the past couple of years. It's why I asked the question. Like PG said, it's a very unique situation.
Placing much emphasis at all on a pitcher's W/L record is a mistake. IMO it's the statistic that has the least value when measuring the quality of a pitcher. Teams can me measured easily by it but not pitchers. A couple of years ago, Zach Greinke won the CY while with the Royals, winning I believe 16 games. Had he been with the Yankees he could have easily won 25 games. Multiply the difference by a 20 year career and you can see how a quality pitcher may end up with substantially less wins depending on the team he plays for.
Greinke may not be the best example out there but I think I made my point. A good pitcher usually wins alot but it's a worthless stat when measuring/comparing pitchers.
Greinke may not be the best example out there but I think I made my point. A good pitcher usually wins alot but it's a worthless stat when measuring/comparing pitchers.
I am old enough to have seen Koufax pitch. All I can say is that EVERYONE who ever saw him during those years or played then, believe he is either the best and the most dominant of his era, and perhaps of all time!
That would certainly get my vote despite his career ending prematurely due to injury.
That would certainly get my vote despite his career ending prematurely due to injury.
This newest question by RJM is a valid question. As far as Koufax goes, Prime9 sums it up nicely. There are many Hall of Fame members who had short careers that weren't 100% all Hall of Fame worthy years, examples being Kirby Puckett and Dizzy Dean. But sometimes the top four to six years is what puts the player over the top. Most of these shorter careered Hall members had extra charisma and shined especially bright on the big stage of the World Series.
I understand what you're saying. But the Dodgers were not the Royals. The debate (which is over) was about the length of his success lading to only so many wins more than the number of wins. Your argument is based on one season. Outside his six quality seasons (four dominant) he performed at a lower level than his team which was had winning seasons all but one of those years. One year his winning percentage was .333 on a NL champion.quote:Originally posted by baseballregie:
Placing much emphasis at all on a pitcher's W/L record is a mistake. IMO it's the statistic that has the least value when measuring the quality of a pitcher. Teams can me measured easily by it but not pitchers. A couple of years ago, Zach Greinke won the CY while with the Royals, winning I believe 16 games. Had he been with the Yankees he could have easily won 25 games. Multiply the difference by a 20 year career and you can see how a quality pitcher may end up with substantially less wins depending on the team he plays for.
Greinke may not be the best example out there but I think I made my point. A good pitcher usually wins alot but it's a worthless stat when measuring/comparing pitchers.
This response is not about debating Koufax's qualifications. It was about how it wouldn't apply in this case. I'm done with this thread. I provided my answer a couple of posts ago. I don't see how the conversation could become anything but circular at this point.
RJM,
Without re-visiting the question, it's interesting to note that without the bonus baby rule that required the Dodgers to place Koufax on the major league roster as soon as they plucked him off the basketball court, he might not have had enough years of major league service to be ELIGIBLE for the hall.
Without re-visiting the question, it's interesting to note that without the bonus baby rule that required the Dodgers to place Koufax on the major league roster as soon as they plucked him off the basketball court, he might not have had enough years of major league service to be ELIGIBLE for the hall.
Swampboy,
Good point! At that time a bonus above a certain amount required a player to go straight to the Majors for two years. This really hurt developement as these guys were generally 18 years old. This probably put Koufax's developement back severely as he could have used the years in the minors and might have in truth become a star faster. Walter Alston, the Dodgers manager used him very sporatically and even after good performances had zero trust in him for years. By the way Harmon Killebrew and I believe Al Kaline are two of the few guys careers who weren't ruined by this rule.
Good point! At that time a bonus above a certain amount required a player to go straight to the Majors for two years. This really hurt developement as these guys were generally 18 years old. This probably put Koufax's developement back severely as he could have used the years in the minors and might have in truth become a star faster. Walter Alston, the Dodgers manager used him very sporatically and even after good performances had zero trust in him for years. By the way Harmon Killebrew and I believe Al Kaline are two of the few guys careers who weren't ruined by this rule.
Why did Guidry and Gooden barely get any HOF consideration from the voters? Based on their top 6 years they have to be among the best of modern day pitchers.
Koufax (1961-1966)
W: 129
L: 47
W-L%: .733
ERA: 2.20
G: 223
CG: 115
SHO: 35
H/9: 6.5
SO/9: 9.45
AS: 6
CYA: 3, also 3rd Place
MVP: 1, also two 2nd Place
Gooden (1984-1988, 1990)
W: 110
L: 42
W-L%: .724
ERA: 2.82
G: 192
CG: 54
SHO: 20
H/9: 7.6
SO/9: 8.27
AS: 4
CYA: 1, also 2nd, 4th, 5th, and 7th
MVP: Best 4th
Guidry (1977-1980, 1983, 1985)
W: 119
L: 43
W-L%: .735
ERA: 2.91
G: 201
CG: 77
SHO: 24
H/9: 7.8
SO/9: 6.8
AS: 3
CYA: 1, also 2nd, 3rd, 5th, and 7th
MVP: Best 2nd
Koufax (1961-1966)
W: 129
L: 47
W-L%: .733
ERA: 2.20
G: 223
CG: 115
SHO: 35
H/9: 6.5
SO/9: 9.45
AS: 6
CYA: 3, also 3rd Place
MVP: 1, also two 2nd Place
Gooden (1984-1988, 1990)
W: 110
L: 42
W-L%: .724
ERA: 2.82
G: 192
CG: 54
SHO: 20
H/9: 7.6
SO/9: 8.27
AS: 4
CYA: 1, also 2nd, 4th, 5th, and 7th
MVP: Best 4th
Guidry (1977-1980, 1983, 1985)
W: 119
L: 43
W-L%: .735
ERA: 2.91
G: 201
CG: 77
SHO: 24
H/9: 7.8
SO/9: 6.8
AS: 3
CYA: 1, also 2nd, 3rd, 5th, and 7th
MVP: Best 2nd