size matters-stats don't

YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. i KNOW A GUY 2 YEARS AGO WHO GOT DRAFTED. hE IS 6'5 AND HAD AN ERA OF 10. hE WAS 2-9 IN ONE OF THE WEAKEST CONFERENCES AND WAS THROWING LOW 90S.
I KNOW ANOTHER WHO WAS 6'3 AND COULDN'T HIT THE SIDE OF A BARN. hE WAS ALSO LOW 90S AND HE WAS DRAFTED OUT OF HS.

THE RARE SCOUT WILL LOOK AT OTHER THINGS.

Kids are not drafted for a variety of reasons. Kids are not drafted every year that many of us expect. Many of those kids find opportunities in independent leagues. I would suggest that your son use any contacts he has - current, former coaches, scouts that have seen him to see if they can make any suggestions. Make sure everyone knows that he wants any opportunity out there IMO.

Size and velocity can overcome sometimes, but it's the rare story we hear about with the pitcher. It makes a great story.... but reality is reality and the slower you throw and the smaller you are, the harder it is to get looks.

bbreggie - this is heart-breaking as my entire family (my parents, my in-laws, me and my wife are your son's biggest fans - he has earned our respect as a person, leader, and especially a PERFORMER.

I don't believe sour grapes is the issue here because in that he would be saying he did not want to play at the next level anyways and that clearly is not true. The real emotion here is bitterness and hurt. I would encourage the young man not to give up on his dreams just yet. In this "scout's" opinion, there is a place at the next level for him - and I don't just mean milb. Here is my reason why:

Like the Chicago Cubs, the Cleveland Indians wandered in the desert of awfulness (sp) from the mid-50's until the 90's. In the 80's they were especially bad. One bright spot in their minor league system for about 10 years was a right-hander who threw in the low to mid-80's but all he did was close games out and help his team win. The Indians were easily the worst team in baseball during the 80's but they just couldn't give this guy a look at the big league level. He just did not throw hard enough according to their scouts. Finally, out of utter desperation and just not having anyone else to call up, they gave this career minor-leaguer a chance at the age of 32. All he did was go on to lead the league in saves for about the next three years and ended up as an All-Star closer with 303 career big league saves. He invented the "throw-to-contact" closer position. His name was Doug Jones. Now Jones was a fairly high draft pick intially (3rd round) with decent size (6-2) but developed arm problems early in his career which limited his velocity thereafter. All I am saying is that velocity can be overcome but it takes a special person to do it. Your son could do that imho if he sets his mind to it. Couple of thoughts:

His teammate from a year ago went undrafted and then tore up the Independent league and was then signed by Tampa. Perhaps that particular indp. league team would also give him a shot.

His college coach has many connections in pro baseball. Perhaps he can get him a look somewhere.

Somewhere performance does matter. Many have their careers cut short before they get a chance to prove themselves. A few can overcome long odds and negative stereotypes. Your son is one of those few imho.

I don't know much about the process so I'm just speculating but my guess is that teams try to sign their draftees between now and Aug. 15th and then some of the teams will end up going the free agent route to fill gaps.

A kid I played with in legion ball signed as a free agent out of college and ended up making it to mlb and pitching for the A's for a few years.

Here we go again with scouts not being able to do their job.
I don't disagree with some of the things said (btw stats don't matter), but how come I know of a pitcher who is 5'10" and doesn't throw 95 and will most likely make organizational pitcher of the year with his organization? Sporting a 1.07 ERA in 50 innings pitched one level with a whip of .83. His deception, cut fastball and how he hides the ball in his delivery makes up for what you say is needed to succeed. Second round pick by the way.
There are many pitchers under 6' who are drafted. Their stats or win or losses aren't always stellar, but they had something that made a scout beleive they were pro material. Projection, age at draft, use of pitches, how you pitch against wood, velo, size, starter, reliever, closer, all come into consideration. Most don't care about stats, pitcher of the week, etc.

Why weren't his coaches helpful in the process? Why didn't he ever approach a scout for their opinion?

Many seniors don't get drafted, many used to sign under the rule that allowed them to sign as FA before the draft. If he is that good, he might have options for Indy ball.

JMO.

baseballregie,
I followed your son this year and he did a terrific job. Congratulations.
On a different board I have communicated with the father of another pitcher.
His son is a bit over 6'5" and about 250lbs.
That young man tops out at 93 and is around 88-91 cruising. He just finished his junior year at one of the top DIII programs, nationally. His ERA was under 1.00,(something like 0.79) and the kid is improving as a very late bloomer.
Not any different than your son...not drafted and not even a look.
I will agree with you that size can certainly be issue in the draft. But there are other items that remain a mystery when your situation is contrasted with this one.

If the player made any indication to anyone that he didn't want to pursue a pro career, they often times take that seriously.

JMO.

Perhaps the pitcher in question does have what it takes to make the pros. All the best to him and his family as he tries to achieve his goal.

However, success at the college level doesn't necessarily guarantee success at the next level. Recently, I asked a pro scout his opinion about a high school player we had both seen play on numerous occasions. To my untrained eye, this kid has the potential to be a major D1 player. The scout confirmed my opinion, but went into great detail about why the player may not be able to make it to the pros. He has the talent to play for a good college program, but his abilities won't necessarily translate at the pro level. It was a real eye-opener for me and helped me realize that pro scouts see things in players that few of the rest of us do.

baseballreggie,

I too have followed your son ever since he threw a no hitter (topping out in the mid 80s) at one of our tournaments. I thought he was a junior this year, though. We actually liked him better at that time as a position player. He showed a lot of talent.

He needs someone to give him a chance, that's for sure. These things are not always fair and sometimes you just have to find a way.

I'm sending you a PM!

Sometimes it's hard to understand these things without knowing the entire picture.

I see that your son was a fine college pitcher and contributed to his teams success.

Your son put in a lot of time this year, but mostly in short relief. Are scouts really able to tell a pitcher's ability in one or two innings every few games?

I saw a certain organization's scouting manual about 11 years ago. On page 2, it said:

"find players who will put butts in the seats in 3-5 years. We are looking for the guy who throws 98 MPH, can steal 80 bases or will hit 400 ft. HRs."

Thanks to all for your kind words. This really is the best BB web site I've visited over the past 5 years. Great people that know the meaning of compassion. Real people with real help in times when you need it. God love you all.

Best of luck to your son, he has options, pursue them if he wants to keep playing.

LT,
I'll bet those manuals haven't changed much.

quote:

Your son put in a lot of time this year, but mostly in short relief. Are scouts really able to tell a pitcher's ability in one or two innings every few games?

TPM - I suggest you don't post anymore in this thread to save further embarassment. You have demonstrated (for the umpteenth time) that you don't understand anything about baseball. Your first post was condesending (as most of your posts are) and then PGStaff said something positive so you tried to save face. Then you came back with the above jewel of knowledge.

Have you ever heard of Carlos Gutierrez (UM) or Ryan Perry (Arizona)? Both short relievers who were first round draft choices this year

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:

quote:

Your son put in a lot of time this year, but mostly in short relief. Are scouts really able to tell a pitcher's ability in one or two innings every few games?

TPM - I suggest you don't post anymore in this thread to save further embarassment. You have demonstrated (for the umpteenth time) that you don't understand anything about baseball. Your first post was condesending (as most of your posts are) and then PGStaff said something positive so you tried to save face. Then you came back with the above jewel of knowledge.

Have you ever heard of Carlos Gutierrez (UM) or Ryan Perry (Arizona)? Both short relievers who were first round draft choices this year

Thank you. I just didn't feel up to saying what you said.

b-regie ...

Sorry to read this about your son. It appears that he was quite successful in his college career, and might well be successful at the professional level. Unfortunately, as much as we would like to believe that the MLB teams want 'winners', instead we see the 'projectable' player drafted time and again. It can be very disheartening for the player, his family, and his fans.

Granted, some players who are successful at the college level are not as successful when they are drafted ... I can think of two right off the top of my head who pitched very well for a major D1 team (the same team) and were drafted in different years, but one was released in his first full season and the other is still active but not doing nearly as well as people expected when he was drafted. And there are kids who might appear almost marginal in college that get drafted, with everybody shaking and scratching their heads and wondering why/how anybody would draft that player, only to see that player blossom in the pros.

Professional baseball is as confusing as any enigma can be ... but the bottom line, as was indicated by another poster, is that MLB is a BUSINESS first and foremost and the powers that be in their front offices do whatever they can to fill the seats of the MLB team's stadium and make money. And I believe that unfortunately some real quality players are overlooked because they don't fit the stereotype of the projectable player.

I hope that if your son has the dream to continue, he will follow through with some other options ... indy teams, post-draft try-outs/work-outs for free agent signings, etc. It is a shame that he has had to see that side of life which seems to not reward hard work, but unfortunately that is what happens in life and we as parents can only stand behind them, love them, and give them a safe place to fall if they must.

kbat2012, I don't want to hijack this thread. Sending you a PM.

baseballreggie, I am hoping that in the next few weeks or months, you will post again with some very good news regarding your son. Best wishes to him in all his endeavors!

First, I honestly I do apologize if I have offended you baseballreggie.

In honesty, I would have said what I did to anyone. It wasn't meant to be condescending, if that was your perception I apologize to you again.

CD,
You really have no say in telling me that I shouldn't post here anymore. If I put my foot in my mouth, then that's my problem, not yours. I know that you try hard to be the fair guy. But you seem sometimes to want people to post on your terms.

If this was a new poster for the very first time, you most likely wouldn't have not even have posted.

Best of luck to your son B-Reggie. Stats don't matter, as you know(unless there are 1.4 or more K's per inning) and neither does size (by itself). Velocity and "stuff" counts way before size or ERA.

As we also found out, 6'ish high 80's righties who can really "pitch" are more plentiful than required by professional baseball.

This kid is is a righty, maybe 5-10 in his cleats, 165#, but works at 92-94 with 3 arm angles. He was a 10th round pick this year.

Danny F.

Velocity matters.

If you crunch the numbers, less than 10% of the position players drafted are less than 6'0" and for pitchers it's probably closer 5%.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
Here we go again with scouts not being able to do their job.
I don't disagree with some of the things said (btw stats don't matter), but how come I know of a pitcher who is 5'10" and doesn't throw 95 and will most likely make organizational pitcher of the year with his organization? Sporting a 1.07 ERA in 50 innings pitched one level with a whip of .83. His deception, cut fastball and how he hides the ball in his delivery makes up for what you say is needed to succeed. Second round pick by the way.
There are many pitchers under 6' who are drafted. Their stats or win or losses aren't always stellar, but they had something that made a scout beleive they were pro material. Projection, age at draft, use of pitches, how you pitch against wood, velo, size, starter, reliever, closer, all come into consideration. Most don't care about stats, pitcher of the week, etc.

Why weren't his coaches helpful in the process? Why didn't he ever approach a scout for their opinion?

Many seniors don't get drafted, many used to sign under the rule that allowed them to sign as FA before the draft. If he is that good, he might have options for Indy ball.

JMO.

FBMom(Mary Ann)-Excellent post! It's too bad yours wasn't the first one in response to BBRegie. I know that you understand
how the system works(or doesn't work). I have my opinions about scouts-which I'll keep to myself at this time. I also understand that it's a difficult job to project if a player will be successful at the next level. That being said, when a player like BBRegie's son is a winner(successful) at every level then it doesn't take a genius to say "Why don't we take this kid with our 45th pick? What do we have to lose?" They sign free agents every summer to to take the place of kids that
didn't sign, or got injured, or homesick(I know for a fact that the Indians are short on pitching right now). Go figure??

I think the old scouts that could see things other than a radar gun and and a stopwatch are quickly disappearing from the scene-it's too bad because a lot of talent is being overlooked. And by talent I mean talent of the HEART. It can't be measured by a gun or a watch.

Baseballregie-your son is a winner and Mary Ann is right on with her remarks.

I'm Pulling for you and your son!

(I removed part of my post-after reading it again it seemed boastful and that was not my intent-sorry)

cbg ...

quote:

If you crunch the numbers, less than 10% of the position players drafted are less than 6'0" and for pitchers it's probably closer 5%.

Is that with or without the cleats on? (wink wink)

I think the main thing is to keep your focus if going pro is your son's goal. You just have to impress one scout and you may get your shot.
A LHP on my son's team barely broke 80mph and had to go independent league before scouts signed him. He had amazing stats all through college.
There are all types of scouts. Some are very good and others are not good. They all have their personal perspective on what they look for but are guided by head office who flip flop every year.
Matt Stairs was never drafted and is a great MLB player with 13 years of success.

The hieghts given are usually in Moms high heels. 5'11 becomes 6'1.
A personal friend of mine was told by scouts that if he was taller he would have gone sooner in the draft and got a bigger bonus.

quote:

The hieghts given are usually in Moms high heels.

BBH: What a sexist thing to say! As if only mom has high heels in her closet!

I thought we were much more inclusive in this day and age!

Interesting thread. My kid is one of only 8 sub-6ft LHP's drafted out of high school this year. I think there must be a reason for that.. perhaps talent? So to heck with the odds! lol

It doesn't seem fair to us on draft day...But with the cost of signing players and the cost of developing (huge) those players, the number of players that actually make the MLB! the teams will select players who through their experence have the best chance of being sucessful

A while back when it became obvious that my Son may not reach 6'3" and throw over 90+ and knowing that his dream is to play MLB, we as a family made a commitment to developing him as a position player, even though he remains a pretty good pitcher. He has yet to officially hit 6', but I continued to grow into my 20's (in height I mean, I still have a propensity to add girth).

If you know what the scouts are looking for, and your Son wants to be noticed by them, it makes sense to position yourself so they see what the want to see.

Many players that can pitch, especially the shorter variety tend to be very good athletically and can probably field their position well and can also probably hit. It may make some sense to consider that a sub 6' player with a good arm might do well as a 2nd baseman (or some other position) where he may have a Plus Arm...If the goal is to play professionally.

It has yet to work out for my guy, so take my opinion with more than a few grains of salt...

Excellent post Mary Anne.

B-regie,

Tell your son to follow his dreams and if that is baseball then to play somewhere, whatever level that may be.

quote:

Originally posted by FutureBack.Mom:
b-regie ...

Sorry to read this about your son. It appears that he was quite successful in his college career, and might well be successful at the professional level. Unfortunately, as much as we would like to believe that the MLB teams want 'winners', instead we see the 'projectable' player drafted time and again. It can be very disheartening for the player, his family, and his fans.

Granted, some players who are successful at the college level are not as successful when they are drafted ... I can think of two right off the top of my head who pitched very well for a major D1 team (the same team) and were drafted in different years, but one was released in his first full season and the other is still active but not doing nearly as well as people expected when he was drafted. And there are kids who might appear almost marginal in college that get drafted, with everybody shaking and scratching their heads and wondering why/how anybody would draft that player, only to see that player blossom in the pros.

Professional baseball is as confusing as any enigma can be ... but the bottom line, as was indicated by another poster, is that MLB is a BUSINESS first and foremost and the powers that be in their front offices do whatever they can to fill the seats of the MLB team's stadium and make money. And I believe that unfortunately some real quality players are overlooked because they don't fit the stereotype of the projectable player.

I hope that if your son has the dream to continue, he will follow through with some other options ... indy teams, post-draft try-outs/work-outs for free agent signings, etc. It is a shame that he has had to see that side of life which seems to not reward hard work, but unfortunately that is what happens in life and we as parents can only stand behind them, love them, and give them a safe place to fall if they must.

how about this for size, in a midwest league game last night.

6:8" starter, 7:1" reliever, 5:9" closer gets the save.

Holy Cow! Talk about messing up eye angles!

Haven't been on in awhile and just found this thread. BReggies' son is a winner and will end up on his feet. He plays with a passion like no other. I also know that he won't give up pursuing his baseball options and will open eyes somewhere in the baseball world. A favorite memory of him was during the Conference Championships and he had pitched quite a few innings that day. We went to the hotel to take our son to dinner and while all the boys were cleaned up and heading out to supper, this particular young man was running. He said he wanted to be ready to pitch tomorrow. That's the kind of player he is. Someone will give him a chance and he will take full advantage of it. Good luck to your son. You raised a fine young man!!!

"We as a family made a committment to develop him as a position player"----OUCH--

What about the young man ?--What were his desires ? What position did he want to play?

And still has not worked out for your guy !!!!

That sure says a lot