Slide / No Slide rule issues

I don't know the precise rule, but it seems obvious that the umpires will not tolerate intentional contact initiated by the runner. The runner should avoid contact by going out of the baseline. It is up to the ump to determine the breakdown of the play and to judge the runner's intent (to avoid a collision). If contact occurs, an ump may call an out without an ejection if the contact is minor and unintentional -- or he may allow the run if the catcher caused it by his decision on how to play the ball. In any case, collisions up the line make blue's job harder.

MMWS -- how do you interpret the rules in this case?

The rule is a National Federation High School rule. The runner must avoid the catcher in this situation. I know that this seems unfair to the runner but this rule was put in place for safety.

It is the same reason why you can't "take out" the SS/2B on the double play.

You don't HAVE TO slide anymore. Contact is what is being called and stressed.

FD is correct in that this is a Federation rule. Many of the HS rules are predicated on safety. Most states play under Federation rules. It's been this way since at least the spring of 1978. That's when Al Alford ejected me from a game for running over and through the catcher. OOPS.

No one "has" to slide, but they can't run over anyone with malicious contact. That's the key and that is strictly in the judgment of the umpire. Sometimes it's a tough decision to make, but we should err on the side of safety. Immediate dead ball at all times. If it's prior to scoring, the player is called out and he's ejected. If after they have scored, then the run scores and player is ejected.

A fielder must have the ball, or be in the act of fielding the ball. Define that one. Again, this is in the judgment of the umpire. Even if there is obstruction on the defense, the runner can NOT run over the fielder. Malicious contact trumps all. EX: Batter hits ball in the gap. The first baseman, either daydreaming or on purpose, is standing in the way of the runner as he rounds first. Batter/runner runs clean over and through the 1B. The B/R just turned a double, or possibly a triple with or without the obstruction call, into an out by running over the 1B. Not real smart and both of them could be hurt.

The responsibility is on the runner to avoid the contact. However, just because there's contact doesn't mean it's something. Such as a play at first where the throw is up the line. You end up with the ball, the 1B, and the B/R getting there all at the same time for the proverbial train wreck. Normally this is nothing, unless the B/R throws an elbow of something like that.

Clear as mud...........

quote:

EX: Batter hits ball in the gap. The first baseman, either daydreaming or on purpose, is standing in the way of the runner as he rounds first. Batter/runner runs clean over and through the 1B. The B/R just turned a double, or possibly a triple with or without the obstruction call, into an out by running over the 1B. Not real smart and both of them could be hurt.

Almost this exact scenerio played out a couple of weeks ago. Our 1st baseman was standing in the basepath wating for a throw from the o-fielder and had his back halfway turned away from 1st base. The baserunner, rounding first... put both hands up and pushed our guy in the back with all he had, knocking him to the ground. They called it on our guy and awarded him a base.

It really is as clear as mud. I know he has a right to the basepath, but come on!

As long as the runner pushed F3 & didn't lower a shoulder, I have no problem with that play whatsoever.

Maybe F3 will remember not to obstruct next time.

I guess you have no problem with that runner getting hit his next time at the plate?

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Originally posted by The Beast:
I guess you have no problem with that runner getting hit his next time at the plate?

Unwritten rule!

quote:

Originally posted by The Beast:
I guess you have no problem with that runner getting hit his next time at the plate?

That would start a beanball war, then. My pitcher would be returning the favor in the next half of the inning.

You stand in the basepath while not in the act of fielding or catching the ball, you should expect to get plowed (certainly at any level HS & above).

Texan and I rarely agree, for whatever the reasons, but here I am with him---the catcher comes up the line and does not have the ball in hand or ready to make the play he is fair game---he is obstructing the runner --no question about it

Our player wasn't standing there picking his nose, or for his health, and was he wasn't intentionally trying to get in the way of the runner. One step or two to the left and the guy could have sailed around him. It actually took more effort to do what he did, then to go past him.

So from what I can tell from the posts so far, it depends which way the wind is blowing as to if the rule applies or not.

I guess you have no problem with that runner getting hit his next time at the plate? crazy

My kid was on the mound, so that could have been arranged.

As a hitter in the 3 or 4 hole I expected to get thrown inside--you need to get back on your bull and take a ride---let the catcher get out of the basepath if he does not have the ball in hand---

Let me ask you this 2010--- if the catcher is up the line 5 feet how does the runner slide and get to the plate---I have won this protest a number of times---the rule is not a ONE WAY STREET

TR I agree with you. How is a runner supposed to get to home plate with a catcher standing in the way???? Ya got me?

I didn't comment on the catching aspect, I was just wondering about the "letter of the law" that MMWS and Funneldrill commented about and why is it ok for a kid to physically shove another player, when the rule says otherwise.

I don't know that is why I was asking.

2010


Here in the Northeast it is called obstruction on the part of the catcher

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How is a runner supposed to get to home plate with a catcher standing in the way???? Ya got me?

If the catcher has the ball, that's what's known as an out.

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Originally posted by TRhit:
2010


Here in the Northeast it is called obstruction on the part of the catcher

Same here in TX!

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Originally posted by 2010-15-20:
Our player wasn't standing there picking his nose, or for his health, and was he wasn't intentionally trying to get in the way of the runner. One step or two to the left and the guy could have sailed around him. It actually took more effort to do what he did, then to go past him.

If the fielder is just standing around (e.g., not in the act of receiving the ball), then the runner should not have to take a single step to move around him.

That step or two to the side, to avoid the fielder who was obstructing, could have meant getting thrown out as the runner advanced to the next base.

And from my experience, if there is no contact there won't be an obstruction call (at least only very, very rarely).

I'm not advocating malicious contact at all. Not by any means. But if there is obstruction and the runner pushes the fielder with his hands, the blues are far more likely to see the obstruction and call it.

That is the way I coached my baserunners. Never had one called out or ejected. Never had any get thrown at afterward, either.

If you've ever played you would know that running the bases isn't that easy. The runner has a lot going on at a very high speed to worry about where the fielders are going. While running has hard as he can, he's got to round the bases and touch them appropriately, see and listen for coach signals, and have a sense of where the ball is out in the field. He's go to make split second decisions at a full run. It's not "easy" to dodge a wayward fielder at the last second. It is the fielder's job to get out of the way, or at least I think it should be.

Excellent post, bt.

If you've ever played you would know that catching or fielding a pitched ball or, cathing a throw to one of the bases isn't that easy. The fielder has a lot going on at a very high speed to worry about where the base runners are going. While getting ready to catch, the pitch or field a ball, or catch a throw to the base, see, and listen for coach signals, and have a sense of where the ball is out in the field. He's go to make split second decisions at a full run. It's not "easy" to dodge a wayward runner at the last second. It is the runner's job to get out of the way, or at least I think it should be.

If the fielder is in the act of receiving a throw, that is one thing. But the first baseman standing around as the runner is rounding first is another.

I neglected that exception in my prior post, but I agree. The runner is responsible for staying out of the way of a fielder (or at least the first infielder to attempt to field the ball.) The fielder in the act of fielding is protected. That is a part of the runners high speed decision-making... who has or doesn't yet have the ball and what are they doing with it.

This thread has elicited such passionate opinions. It only goes to show that the rule as written seems clear but it’s the interpretation of the play that is sometimes difficult. Let me give an example of a play that happened a few weeks ago in a competitive high school district game. You make the call.

The game is tied 8-8 in the top of the eighth inning (extra innings). The visiting team has a runner on 2nd base with two outs. The batter hits a line shot just out of reach of the SS and into left field. The runner at 2nd is off at the crack of the bat and at full speed rounds third and continues running full speed about 6 feet outside the line toward home. The left fielder scoops the ball cleanly but seeing the speed of the runner going home lets go a throw to home that is drifting away from home plate toward the outside. The catcher who is waiting at the plate for the throw sees the ball drifting toward the outside so comes up the line and toward the fence (outside) to catch the ball. As destiny sometimes has it, the throw takes the catcher right into the path of the runner who is now about 10 feet up the line and 6 feet out. The runner seeing the catcher jumps to the outside about 1 foot just before making contact with the catcher and ends up missing him. The runner, though he has broken his stride, continues towards home plate and lunges for the plate with his outstretched arm. He comes up about a foot short. The catcher catches the high outside throw almost at the same time but a fraction after the runner has jumped outside. The catcher turns and throws high to the pitcher covering home plate. At the same time the pitcher catches the high throw; the runner makes a second lunge with his body and touches the corner of the plate just before being tagged.

Is he safe or out and why? I’ll let you know if you’re interested what the call was, what the coaches said and some other thoughts.

Panther Proud....Based on your description of the play I call the runner safe. Running "6 foot" outside the base path is (as I was trained, a non-issue) as the base path is the path the runner takes to get to the next base, this takes into account the "rounding of bases" unless the runner in an attempt to avoid the tag moves three feet or more from the "path" if a player has the ball and is attempting to make a tag. The "one foot" you described is within the tolerated limit. But it all up to the "judgement" of the man making the call!

Well, spit it out PantherProud, the suspense is killing me.

Must be a commerical break.

Bless his heart.

Hurry!!!

Sorry, I had to get some work done.

The runner was called safe. The reasoning was, as En Fuego correctly stated, the runner sets his own baseline. The runner also made the correct decision to do all he could to keep from making contact with the catcher. The catcher was making a legal play on the ball so obstruction is not applicable. The runner was not trying to avoid a tag since the catcher didn't have the ball when the move by the runner was made. The safe call to me was obvious much to the chagrin of the home town fans. This run turned out to be the winning run. I think the call would have been more complicated if contact had been made by the runner. First you would have to consider if the contact was malicious, then if not malicious was it intentional and rule from there. It could even be incidental contact.

I was the home plate umpire and made the safe call. The home coach came to me and said the runner had to run down the line and my reply of course was that the runner sets his own baseline so that reasoning was not valid. Of course the visiting coach was pleased and said the call was correct. The home AD, who had been the previous baseball coach for many years said the call was correct and he would straighten out the baseball coach on the rules. Needless to say, I'm not saying who the two teams were.

quote:

runner sets his own baseline

PP, is that in the rules somewhere?

I thought it was a trick question -- the runner touched the plate before being tagged. Sounds safe to me. Sorry to make the interpretation more simple than it was....but the only appropriate reasoning was, "did the runner travel outside the baseline to avoid a tag?", which he clearly did not.

FO,

The first rule that comes to mind is rule 8.4.2.a.2 which states when a play is being made on a runner he establishes his baseline as directly between his position and the base toward which he is moving.

A couple of examples though. Have you heard of the 'rabbit in the outfield' play. In this play the runner, usually at first, establishes his starting position in right field and as long as he runs directly to second he is staying in the baseline. You don't see this play often but it is done to try to force an unsuspecting pitcher or fielder to make a play thus allowing another runner to advance. Also, you frequently see a runner at second establish his starting position well behind second to get a good view of the SS or other fielder.

Yep, hadn't thought about it.

Thought about dropped third strike and runner heading to dug out and not out until in the dugout.

What I'm hearing is what I thought. There is a lot of judgement involved. I've asked several players what they are supposed to do and I don't get the same answer twice. I'm for going back to real baseball where the runner can run, slide or whatever as long as it is not malicious. All sports have some injury risks. Catchers need to be smart. It's their decision to come up the baseline. They better watch out for 200 lb guy coming at them at full speed. Not many are going to change change directions like Emmit Smith so the catcher has the opportunity to see the ball, feel the runner and get out of the way as needed or take the chance on the collision.

Cowboy, just remember that you don't HAVE to slide. BUT, the one thing that you cannot do, is run over someone. If blue is doing his job, he will get the obstruction call. It is a delayed dead ball, so be patient. Nothing has to be called in .2 seconds.

PProud, I'd figure he'd be safe since it was a tie score............. (Just kidding.)

Well MMWS lets look at it this way. The defense had two good shots at getting the runner. First a good throw to the plate from left field would have nailed him and second a decent throw from the catcher to the pitcher would have got him. If you execute properly you usually come out fine, if not well you see what happens.

Understand completely. Seen it way too many times. Shoot me an email and let me know who/what/where.

Man this runner must of been slow.