sliding on double plays

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
What's the NFHS rule on sliding into second on double plays? I believe the runner has to slide to

You believe wrong:

8-4-2 (b) "Any runner is out when he: does not legally slide AND causes illegal contact AND/OR alters the actions of a fielder in the immediate act of making a play, or on a force play does not slide in a direct lined between the bases, or

1. A runner may slide in a direction away from the fielder to avoid making contact or altering the play of the fielder.
2. Runners are NEVER required to slide, but if a runner elects to slide, the slide must be legal. (2-32-1,1) Jumping, hurdling and leaping are all legal attempts to aovid a fielder as long as the fielder is lying on the ground. Diving over a fielder is illegal."

The rule is admittedly written somewhat unclear. When it says a runner is out when he does not legally slide, the requirment is "legally" not "slide". Paragraph 2 clears that up.

He was out on the force. So let's look at the out that was not made at first due to his take out slide....

He elected to slide. I believe he altered the action of the fielder by making contact with his legs. The second baseman was a step away/beside the base on contact. After the force at second the fielder/second baseman stepped back way from second to make the relay to first. The contact forced him to eat the ball rather than relaying to first. I don't believe my son slid in a direct line between the bases considering he was sideways with his hands touching the base and his legs taking out the fielder. Like I said, it looked like a textbook takeout slide.

The opposing coach argued it was an illegal slide and a double play should have been awarded. Also, could my son have been ejected for his slide assuming it was illegal? There was no intent to injure. But I believe it was an illegal slide.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
He was out on the force. So let's look at the out that was not made at first due to his take out slide....

He elected to slide. I believe he altered the action of the fielder by making contact with his legs. The second baseman was a step away/beside the base on contact. After the force at second the fielder/second baseman stepped back way from second to make the relay to first. The contact forced him to eat the ball rather than relaying to first. I don't believe my son slid in a direct line between the bases considering he was sideways with his hands touching the base and his legs taking out the fielder. Like I said, it looked like a textbook takeout slide.

The opposing coach argued it was an illegal slide and a double play should have been awarded. Also, could my son have been ejected for his slide assuming it was illegal? There was no intent to injure. But I believe it was an illegal slide.

Please don't mistake my first post as support for the umpires at the game. It certainly sounds as if two outs should have been calle, but an illegal slide, absent malicious contact, is not grounds for an ejection.

I wasn't sure my first post described well enough how he slid. The coach had his pitcher throw at him anyway. It was his first game back after getting drilled in the knee by a fastball.

Now he has a sprained wrist, sore knee and sore back. It's humorous he gave up football so he wouldn't get hurt for baseball. Right now he's more taped up than I ever was for football.

If I were the umpire I have two outs your son and the batter runner! I also have malicious contact and your son is ejected. NFHS rule 3-3-1 n Casebook 3-3-1 situation z "when sliding into second base feet first, Ri maliciously slashes out with his right leg and trips F6 who is in the act of making the pivot in an attempt to complete a double play." RULING: The ball is dead immediatly. R1 is out and ejected for malicious contact. B2 shall be called out by the umpire because this was a force play and R1 did not execute a legal slide.(8-4-2b)

I think the DP is enough of a penalty here. From what has been described, I don't have MC. The penalty for an illegal slide is not an ejection.

Along these same lines I have a question--- a few years back we played in a tournament for whatever the reason one of the fields had basesb that were not tied own---now mind you these are HS juniors and seniors playing--- on a double play ball our runner on first base slide into second , the base moves and he slid with it--the umpire rules he cannot slide thru the base and awarded an automatic DP---how can you not slide thru a base if the base is loose and not tied down? the bad part was that the DP was not going to happen, ball hit too slow,and there was no malicious contact--

That should have been covered at the Pregame meeting at home plate before the game. IMHO If the base was movable the call should have never been made.
In pregame I would have said we have movable bases.. we will use our best judgement.

POLO


Thank you--it was discussed but when the play happened the umps talked differently--

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Along these same lines I have a question--- a few years back we played in a tournament for whatever the reason one of the fields had basesb that were not tied own---now mind you these are HS juniors and seniors playing--- on a double play ball our runner on first base slide into second , the base moves and he slid with it--the umpire rules he cannot slide thru the base and awarded an automatic DP---how can you not slide thru a base if the base is loose and not tied down? the bad part was that the DP was not going to happen, ball hit too slow,and there was no malicious contact--

A loose/displaced base has no effect on the Force Play Slide Rule. If the runner slid past the [proper position of] the base and then contacted the fielder, the ump's call was correct.

A moving base warrants leniency (judgment) on: 1) a runner being tagged off his base, and; 2) a fielder (most likely F3) holding the base while stretching for the throw. That's about it.

Thanks dash I am misinformed then......??????

Dash so then if the runner slides into the bag with both feet in a direct line between the bases and the bag moves as his momentum takes the bag and his feet into the fielder then, he and the BR are both out? Even though he did everything correct?
Not trying to be a pain...I just want to get this right as I do have a couple of fields (inner city) that have bases the come off and move.

quote:

Originally posted by POLOGREEN:
Dash so then if the runner slides into the bag with both feet in a direct line between the bases and the bag moves as his momentum takes the bag and his feet into the fielder then, he and the BR are both out? Even though he did everything correct?
Not trying to be a pain...I just want to get this right as I do have a couple of fields (inner city) that have bases the come off and move.

Yes, both are out. The runner didn't do everything correct[ly]. He slid past the base and contacted the fielder.

This is a safety rule designed to protect fielders and runners from injury. The fielder is protected everywhere except from a legal slide in a direct line to, and not beyond, the base. To arbitrarily reduce that area of protection because the base came loose is ludicrous. Think about it.

Polo....remember that there is a difference between the bag and the base. The FPSR prohibits the runner from oversliding the base and contacting the fielder.

Dash
I cannot disagree with you more---these umps termed it "sliding thru the base"--how can you not slide thru the base if the base is not anchored down? Not to mention that there was no way the play was a DP anyway as the batted ball was hit too slowly for that to happen

The base never moves. The bag can, however.

Here we go with the umpire semantics---to me the bag is the base--this is why you guys have the rep you have--you try to be too darn cute with your wording

Incidently in the instance I noted I didn't argue--my assistant beat me to it and he is on the National HS Rules committee--- the ump told him to go scratch in plain english

It is not mere semantics. Words have meaning and the rulesmakers (mangers, players and owners, by the way) purposefully use the two terms to mean different things. I can't help that you never learned that.

When a bag moves, umpires are trained to concentrate on action at the base. Players are never expected to chase an unsecured moving bag to remain or become "safe".

This is as old as baseball and is for the players benefit. Welcome to the 19th century.

Nothing cute about it.

Jimmy

I have met some umpires who were crass--but you beat them--your attitude is you are always right regardless of the color you wear, red, white, blue or PINK--I love umpires in PINK

When the bag moves, the base moves and don't tell me the runner slid thru the base--TOTAL BS--especially when the umpire tells my coach " this is my field, my game and what I say is it !!!"--talk about ego!!!

I even went to confession once to confess my cursing an umpire under my breath--the voice came back from inside the confessional telling me this-- do not worry about it--umpires are never wrong in their own mind--he gave me no penance and wished me the best

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Dash
I cannot disagree with you more

I agree. You already have the rule 100% wrong.

quote:

these umps termed it "sliding thru the base"

They were correct.

quote:

how can you not slide thru the base if the base is not anchored down?

By adjusting your slide.

quote:

Not to mention that there was no way the play was a DP anyway as the batted ball was hit too slowly for that to happen

Irrelevant, by rule.

I can understand your not knowing the rules. You have demonstrated that over and over again. But arguing to save an out at the expense of increased risk of a season or perhaps career-ending injury to an adolescent under your guidance is mind boggling. Nice job coach.

DASH


Again the typical umpire jibberish the coach is wrong the umpire is right--
Adjust the slide?--what the hell is that all about !!!
You cannot slide thru a base when it goes with you

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Here we go with the umpire semantics---to me the bag is the base--this is why you guys have the rep you have--you try to be too darn cute with your wording

Incidently in the instance I noted I didn't argue--my assistant beat me to it and he is on the National HS Rules committee--- the ump told him to go scratch in plain english

again you try to turn your rules ignorance against umpires ....the base is the actual point where the lines intersect........the bag is the representitive of the actual base......like Jimmy says the base never moves.....ever....yet the bag can become dislodged..........

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Jimmy

I have met some umpires who were crass--but you beat them--your attitude is you are always right regardless of the color you wear, red, white, blue or PINK--I love umpires in PINK

TWit:

I have no doubt you speak truthfully when you say you love umpires in pink. You probably love most everything in pink.

I'm sorry but you can't make me feel guitly for lack of knowledge. I am not responsible for your ignorance.

You come here time after time willing, nay, eager to demonstrate your failure to understand the basic rules, the very foundation of the sport of baseball and then try to paint umpires as arrogant because they took the time to learn.

You have a choice...you can learn or continue to live in ignorance of some of the basics of the sport of baseball.

And, umpires don't think they are always right, we understand we make mistakes. What we realize is that the Game of Baseball though the owners of the rules deem that our decisions, with few exceptions, are final. Otherwise the game would just become one endless argument after another.

They also understood that they could not rely on the participants, who have a vested interest in the game's outcome, to be honest and impartial; thus, umpires.

MLB rule 1.06 defines a "Base". The "Bag" is a marker for the stationary point of the "Base" and there is a definintion for the placement, size, color and construction of the "Bag". So it is not umpire semantics. It is in the rules.

The Umpire's are forced into a judgement situation when the home team fails to properly equip the field. The rules are also very clear about not sliding through the base. It is entirley possible and happens enough for the rule to be written for runners to slide with feet up and get "across" the bag.

In this situation with moveable bags it allows runners to become more reckless since the risk of a broken ankle is removed because the bag can move. So runners can end up a few feet past the "base" without risk to themselves. Sounds like this may have happened on this play so IMO an umpire would be correct in looking to stop this kind of play so it does not escalate in a tight ball game when tempers can be fueled by contact.

As far as an Umpire announcing it's "my field and what I say it is" really is poor game management. A calm explanation that the runner went too far "through" the bag in his judgement should have been a sufficent explanation of what he got. Especially if the "bag" went any distance from it's placement.

IMO if a runner ended up with his fanny where the bag was originally placed and the bag ended up 7-10 feet away it's a good call. If the runner ended up with his shins over were the bag was and the bag went a few feet it's a reach.

Jimmy03 What about;
8-4-2h1:


quote:
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...if any base comes loose from its fastening when any runner contacts it, such runner cannot be tagged out because the base slides away from him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:

Originally posted by POLOGREEN:
Jimmy03 What about;
8-4-2h1:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...if any base comes loose from its fastening when any runner contacts it, such runner cannot be tagged out because the base slides away from him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Didn't I already allude to that when I posted: "When a bag moves, umpires are trained to concentrate on action at the base. Players are never expected to chase an unsecured moving bag to remain or become "safe"."

Jimmy 03
I'm with you brother BUT I'm doing Inner City games I want to get off the field and into my car and home. I want to give the kids the best I have and all I'm doing is making sure of my rules. Thank you for being patient with my questions.

quote:

Originally posted by POLOGREEN:
Jimmy 03
I'm with you brother BUT I'm doing Inner City games I want to get off the field and into my car and home. I want to give the kids the best I have and all I'm doing is making sure of my rules. Thank you for being patient with my questions.

No problem. Like I said earlier, despite the grief you'll get from coaches, the rule really benefits the players. Baseball doesn't want them chasing loose bags.

Like what piaa said also....the base never moves.....ever....yet the bag can become dislodged! Thanks guys for ALL the help!

Umps,

How many of you played baseball? If you had you would know that when sliding into a base (or bag since it hasn't moved yet), the force of a person running 15-20 mph and then sliding will cause an unsecured "bag" to move. By saying a player has slid "through" the "base" and calling a DP is absurd. You act as though a player is supposed to come to a stop on his slide without the help of a secured "base/bag". If that was the case when a player slides into home he should never slide through the "base/plate". While I don't always agree with TRHit, he is right on this one. Again how many of you ever played the game?

I can't wait for the venomous responses

quote:

Originally posted by Gold Glove:
Umps,

How many of you played baseball? If you had you would know that when sliding into a base (or bag since it hasn't moved yet), the force of a person running 15-20 mph and then sliding will cause an unsecured "bag" to move. By saying a player has slid "through" the "base" and calling a DP is absurd. You act as though a player is supposed to come to a stop on his slide without the help of a secured "base/bag". If that was the case when a player slides into home he should never slide through the "base/plate". While I don't always agree with TRHit, he is right on this one. Again how many of you ever played the game?

I can't wait for the venomous responses

D-1, first base. Venemous enough?

Umpires do not make the FED rules, coaches and AD's do. Take your complaint to your state body, and good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by Gold Glove:
Umps,

How many of you played baseball? If you had you would know that when sliding into a base (or bag since it hasn't moved yet), the force of a person running 15-20 mph and then sliding will cause an unsecured "bag" to move. By saying a player has slid "through" the "base" and calling a DP is absurd. You act as though a player is supposed to come to a stop on his slide without the help of a secured "base/bag". If that was the case when a player slides into home he should never slide through the "base/plate". While I don't always agree with TRHit, he is right on this one. Again how many of you ever played the game?

I can't wait for the venomous responses

U of Hartford (OF).

The force play slide rule also applies at the plate, so yes, sliding "through" the plate could result in a violation and a DP.

Guys no offense but you're barking up the wrong tree. Heaven knows I've had my disagreements with umpires over the years and there are several rules that I don't agree with but these guys are just the messengers. Why we got to get onto them (and yes I know we sometimes read things as being harsher than what was intended) when these guys have NEVER called any of our games?

Think about the rule this way - if you weren't protected at the base then what would keep a MIF from "accidentally" kicking a loose bag away from the base on a steal attempt? Guy goes to cover the bag on a steal and next thing you know the bag has been moved a foot or two. Now it's next to impossible to steal a base.

The obvious answer is for umps to protect the runner to the base area and not worry about where the bag goes. That makes sense and is pretty much how the rule reads. It's still umpire's judgement as to whether the runner beat the throw / tag to the base or not but it's better than having to go 92 feet to be safe.

Well with this rule you have now protected the offense as you should but now you got to protect the defense. The can't slide past the base part of the rule is how you protect the defense equally. Without this all a runner has to do is go 91 feet to take out a MIF who steps behind the bag to turn two. On a normal field with a secured bag the MIF is safe but because the bag is loose he's not safe without the rule.

How would you like it if your 2B puts his left foot on the base and then hops toward LF because the feed took him there - as he gets ready to make the 91 - 92 feet throw a runner comes sliding in and takes him out? The day before on a field with secure bases this situation isn't a problem but because of the loose bag the situation has changed but the rule cannot change.

Maybe I'm wrong in my explanation but that's how I see the justification in the ruling. Initially when I read the first post I thought - no harm no foul but after reading what the umps put it makes sense and I agree with it. It's a good rule.

We got to realize that we have to have umps to play the game. I think these guys will tell you that there are bad umps just like there are bad coaches, players, parents, fans and everyone else. But since we have to have them why not make the best of what you might see as a bad situation?

quote:

Originally posted by Gold Glove:
I can't wait for the venomous responses

sorry to disapoint you........

Catcher- Youth-HS/American Legion/MSBL

Played the game and played 2nd base back when dinosaurs ruled the earth. Batting helmets were just gaining widespread use and were still kind of sissy until Tony C got smoked. Remember him?

Learned how to drop down and low bridge throws to protect myself and hit a few guys doing it. Ahh the memories of coach (a WWII tanker) teaching me to "throw it through his face" while ******* on a Lucky. He had guys run the baseline while I learned how to do it right. He didn't like ducking out of the way. If they moved too soon he made them stationary targets at 15-20' so they could toughen up.

The good news is that enough kids got hurt by this stuff that sensible people with a little perspective acted. They realized it's only HS baseball and kids should be able to walk and chew when it's done.

I rarely see HS middle infielders drop down anymore which is really a good thing. If you've ever splattered a kids face or seen it happen only a bonehead would think the old way at the HS level is better.

T-ball All stars, US world Series batting champ.

Centerfield.
Now let me ask a question back. If you are runnung with a full head of steam don't you have to figure your slide so you don't break your leg on the base that doesn't move? If you are on a field that has unsecured bases then you should know that and adjust your slide accordingly.
If the rulesmakers didn't think a base might break loose at some point, why did they write a rule to cover when it does.