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Being a (somewhat disgruntled) Nats fan and reading about where they will "plug" in Ryan Zimmerman in the field (LF or 1B), makes me wonder that for POSITION players, is what MOSTLY gets a player on and playing in MLB their hitting? I mean, if utility players like Tyler Moore can be moved to play multiple positions (at least adequately), is what gets a talented minor league position player on a team mostly their hitting? It seems like, defensively, perhaps with exceptions made for MIF and CF, that many, many players in minor leagues could probably handle the defensive requirements, but is what is keeping them down their (perceived/real) lack of high-level hitting against quality MLB pitching? Or does timing and fortune/opportunity play a bigger role?

 

Yes, a very general topic, but I've wondered about this in the past and, and it seems to me that with the majority of minor league position players probably around the mean defensive skill level, does hitting become the big discriminator? Thanks.

Last edited by Batty67
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IMO in general at the top level of play, everyone can field "adequately", so those that can hit will get the opportunity to prove they are not a defensive liability.  I think the days of being ok with a great position player hitting .200 or even .230 is becoming less common.  Now you have SS, C, and OF putting up what used to be considered only corner numbers at the plate.

The best hitter in baseball in 2013 was Miguel Cabrera. According to Fangraphs, Miguel Cabrera was worth 67.9 Batting Runs. The best defensive player in baseball in 2013 according to Fangraphs was Andrelton Simmons, who was worth 41 Defensive Runs Saved. 

 

2012: 

Batting- Miguel Cabrera, 53.5

Defense- Darwin Barney, 28

 

2011: 

Batting- Miguel Cabrera, 61.6

Defense- Austin Jackson, 29

 

2010:

Batting- Joey Votto, 55.9

Defense- Michael Bourn, 30

 

2009:

Batting- Albert Pujols, 68.9

Defense- Franklin Gutierrez, 32

 

 

Over a 5 year sample, the best hitter in baseball yearly has been worth 307.8 runs, while the best fielder in baseball yearly has been worth 160 runs saved. So, in short, yes. Hitting is considerably more important than defense, according to the numbers.

 

Originally Posted by RJM:

According to the Bill James' of the baseball world hitting is far more significant than being able to field. By the metrics a Mark Belanger wouldn't be long for the majors or he would be in a utility role.

Andrelton Simmons' defense is about the same percentage of his value as Belanger's was for his career, and Simmons just signed a $58 million dollar contract. Belanger types these days just have a different offensive profile today than they did then, and the offensive floor is somewhat higher. I mean, Ben Revere's had a career after all.

 

That said, teams have realized that outside of real outliers on defense, the impact of defense on winning for any particular player tends to be much smaller than the impact of offense (or lack thereof). It's a lot easier for a big bat to carry a crappy glove than it is for a slick glove to carry a mediocre bat, no matter what position we're talking about.

Thanks for the input, especially since it seems to confirm my suspicions

 

I started seeing a push for offense, I mean offensive excellence, as my son was in middle school and getting ready for HS baseball. His hitting instructor (off-and-on) kept saying "If you hit you won't sit." Glad he (and I) have encouraged my son to work so much on his hitting. We'll continue to do so.

Good topic for people to ponder.

How many folks have come here stating their son is a better fielder than most on his team, and leave out the hitting stats.

Absolutely, if you can hit you will never sit.

What I have noticed more prevalent than ever is if you can get a hit coming off the bench  and play multiple positions, you have a job at the ML level.

Funny, just the other night Harold Reynolds (MLB Network) was lamenting the loss of great athletes in baseball. He noted that most MLB teams only have one speedster on their rosters these days, and that in his day ('80s and '90s) most teams had 3-5 guys with speed. He brought up specialization (year round baseball) as a big factor.

 

He may be right... but maybe sabermetrics have "enlightened" the MLB to the relative importance of hitting, and teams are choosing hitting or speed.

I believe that it was Ted Williams who was first quoted saying that "hitting in baseball is THE hardest thing to do in professional sports." As you mentioned, there seems to be plenty of players around the mean ability level defensively, but a big hitter, thats something special. plus it makes the game more fun for some people to watch haha! im a big Red Sox fan (born and raised in Boston) and i can tell you i didnt have a very great time watching Stephen Drew last year. His fielding was a pleasure to watch, but, you forget about it awfully quick when you see how terrible some of his at bats were.

 

Good stats JH! that seems to make it a very cut and dry topic. 

Last edited by CoachZ

Not to change the original topic but since there seems to be general consensus so far on the answer I thought I'd add a question - what's the thought on batting improvement potential for a 2016?  My son is a very good defensive player   but his batting needs improvement.  We have him seeing a batting coach who is working to fine tune some things but who reports that overall his technique is good - but the numbers don't show it (yet).  Is there hope for seeing a significant improvement?  I really hope the answer is yes as I know he will need to or will sit on his HS team next year if someone is doing better than him in that area. 

Originally Posted by learning:

Not to change the original topic but since there seems to be general consensus so far on the answer I thought I'd add a question - what's the thought on batting improvement potential for a 2016?  My son is a very good defensive player   but his batting needs improvement.  We have him seeing a batting coach who is working to fine tune some things but who reports that overall his technique is good - but the numbers don't show it (yet).  Is there hope for seeing a significant improvement?  I really hope the answer is yes as I know he will need to or will sit on his HS team next year if someone is doing better than him in that area. 

Really impossible to say.  Probably the safe answer is that it is possible but you never know.  My first questions is how credible / good is the hitting coach?  Does this guy legitly want your son to improve or is he going to feed him feel good comments to keep him coming back and you with your wallet open.  Maybe the things he's done in workouts hasn't found their way to BP or games or maybe he's not doing anything to improve.  

Originally Posted by Smitty28:

This topic reminds me of a famous quote:

 

"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators Firstbaseman Dale Long

I think it was Reggie Jackson who also said something similar... Along the lines of "when you shake the baseball tree, a hundred big league gloves fall out for every one big league bat."

In my view, part of getting an opportunity as a MLB player for a utility type player involves luck and organization needs and philosophies, accepting utility guys have pretty special talents.  To still be playing and moving up 3-4 years into a MILB career, we have to assume the player is showing tools to be able to get on a 40 man protected and eventually 25 man MLB roster.

Luck then comes into play to an extent based on many factors which I think could include who is at the MLB level at their position(s) , the number of options available for the player, injuries, and finally the organization involved.

The OP referenced Tyler Moore.

When I think of utility type players and situations, I think of Daniel Descalso with the Cards, Joaquin Arias and also Gregor Blanco with the Giants.

Descalso, for instance, is a lifetime .240 hitter but he is clearly a valuable utility guy in St. Louis. Arias is a lifetime .260 hitter but highly valued with the Giants in a utility role.Both Descalso and Arias can play 2B, 3B and short and are good glove guys. Arias can also play 1B and the outfield if needed an my bet is Descalso could be serviceable in the outfield if needed.  While I don't know, I would also guess the each knows his role on a 25 man roster and executes that role and overall place on the roster in a very professional and skilled way in terms of preparing and executing when their  name is in the line up.

If we want a very clear illustration of luck associated with injury, we need to look no further than the Giants' Brandon Hicks.  There is  a pretty good chance he would be at AAA this year.  Lucky for him, he signs as a free agent and  the starting 2B Marco Scutaro goes on the DL where he has been all season.  Hicks performs well in ST and gets that roster spot.  He is fielding the position, batting .188 and striking out 1 of every 3 AB's,  but the Giants are playing him everyday because he is helping them  defensively, they rely on pitching and defense, and  he has 8 HR's and 20 RBI's in 46 games.

In different organizations with different philosophies and different "luck," there is a chance none of these guys get a MLB roster spot. Each is extremely good in understanding the role they have and executing each aspect of that role in a way their respective organizations value. Each probably made some of their "luck."

Last edited by infielddad
Originally Posted by Batty67:

Being a (somewhat disgruntled) Nats fan and reading about where they will "plug" in Ryan Zimmerman in the field (LF or 1B), makes me wonder that for POSITION players, is what MOSTLY gets a player on and playing in MLB their hitting? I mean, if utility players like Tyler Moore can be moved to play multiple positions (at least adequately), is what gets a talented minor league position player on a team mostly their hitting? It seems like, defensively, perhaps with exceptions made for MIF and CF, that many, many players in minor leagues could probably handle the defensive requirements, but is what is keeping them down their (perceived/real) lack of high-level hitting against quality MLB pitching? Or does timing and fortune/opportunity play a bigger role?

 

Yes, a very general topic, but I've wondered about this in the past and, and it seems to me that with the majority of minor league position players probably around the mean defensive skill level, does hitting become the big discriminator? Thanks.

Not if your the Reds!!! 

Descalso's not really much of a glove guy (relative to infield starters), nor is Arias. Their value comes from being passable at multiple positions while not being a complete zero at the plate, combined with the fact that 12-13 man pitching staffs have hamstrung managers with regards to building a useful bench.

 

As the game is evolving now, if we don't see an expansion to 26-27 man MLB rosters at some point, I'd be surprised, and without that expansion I'd expect to start seeing more Brooks Kieshnicks running around (though probably guys who can play IF positions on the side).

Originally Posted by CoachZ:

I believe that it was Ted Williams who was first quoted saying that "hitting in baseball is THE hardest thing to do in professional sports." As you mentioned, there seems to be plenty of players around the mean ability level defensively, but a big hitter, thats something special. plus it makes the game more fun for some people to watch haha! im a big Red Sox fan (born and raised in Boston) and i can tell you i didnt have a very great time watching Stephen Drew last year. His fielding was a pleasure to watch, but, you forget about it awfully quick when you see how terrible some of his at bats were.

 

Good stats JH! that seems to make it a very cut and dry topic. 

Then the Red Sox watched Bogaerts play short for forty games, called Drew's agent and overpaid to have him return.

Originally Posted by RJM:
Originally Posted by CoachZ:

I believe that it was Ted Williams who was first quoted saying that "hitting in baseball is THE hardest thing to do in professional sports." As you mentioned, there seems to be plenty of players around the mean ability level defensively, but a big hitter, thats something special. plus it makes the game more fun for some people to watch haha! im a big Red Sox fan (born and raised in Boston) and i can tell you i didnt have a very great time watching Stephen Drew last year. His fielding was a pleasure to watch, but, you forget about it awfully quick when you see how terrible some of his at bats were.

 

Good stats JH! that seems to make it a very cut and dry topic. 

Then the Red Sox watched Bogaerts play short for forty games, called Drew's agent and overpaid to have him return.

The Sox signing Drew has a lot more to do with Middlebrooks inability to play 3B than Xander's glove not playing at SS.

Originally Posted by jacjacatk:

Descalso's not really much of a glove guy (relative to infield starters), nor is Arias. Their value comes from being passable at multiple positions while not being a complete zero at the plate, combined with the fact that 12-13 man pitching staffs have hamstrung managers with regards to building a useful bench.

 

As the game is evolving now, if we don't see an expansion to 26-27 man MLB rosters at some point, I'd be surprised, and without that expansion I'd expect to start seeing more Brooks Kieshnicks running around (though probably guys who can play IF positions on the side).

I would probably not agree the approach hamstrings a manager but agree it might with some. 

The Giant's purposely carry 12(at times 13 this year due to injury) pitchers with a goal of using their bullpen to shorten games to 6 innings, with a starting staff which often has the one run lead after 6. Couple this with Crawford now being silently with the very best defensively at his position  and an approach with Blanco and Arias  which allows them to have maximum flexibility on double switches later in a game and the fans end up with "torture" but more often than not a really good "torture." The recipe is not perfect, but between the Giants and the Cards, they have shown it works over 162 regular season games, with 3 rings out of the last four using  similar approaches to game management, pitching, the bullpen, and utility guys.

Where teams like this can really be impacted is an injury of the type the Giants suffered with Pagan in 2013. Blanco can make a difference staying within his role but gets exposed as an everyday guy, just as we might expect with  utility guys  at the MLB level. Personally, I love to watch the guys who make the utility role a valuable asset but that also might be because that was the route our son was heading until injury stopped the journey.

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