Is every excellent college player a pro prospect ????
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
.
Depends on what the definition of is is.
Depends on what the definition of is is.
Excellent means successful to me. There are numerous excellent college players at the top of their level of competition for their entire college career that are simply not considered for professional baseball. Professional baseball uses a different set of criteria for selection. Achievement may or may not be part of the equation, not that there is anything wrong with that.
When you look at who isn't drafted out of college it makes you scratch your head until you watch a lower level professional game. Pro ball really values power and speed. It seems a guy has to grade out at MLB average at something, to get drafted.
When you look at who isn't drafted out of college it makes you scratch your head until you watch a lower level professional game. Pro ball really values power and speed. It seems a guy has to grade out at MLB average at something, to get drafted.
I thought so until my son's senior year at a top 25 D1 in South Carolina. Sometime during his senior year he began telling me about the phenomena of being called an excellent COLLEGE pitcher but without the tools MLB looks for. He set 3 pitching records for this top 25 D1, was their #1-2 pitcher, went 7-0 with 4 saves and was not drafted.
quote:Originally posted by baseballregie:
I thought so until my son's senior year at a top 25 D1 in South Carolina. Sometime during his senior year he began telling me about the phenomena of being called an excellent COLLEGE pitcher but without the tools MLB looks for. He set 3 pitching records for this top 25 D1, was their #1-2 pitcher, went 7-0 with 4 saves and was not drafted.
Great post, great answer, great honesty. This is where people should take off the blinders to learn and understand.
Thanks baseballregie I've changed my look on this question.
My son found the truth in college, major Division I---one of his team mates, a junior with "connections" , had a 28 game hitting streak and hit over 400 for the season---he was not one of the 1500 kids drafted---my son called me and said "if he didn't get drafted where do I stand/"--it is called seeing the light
The #1 tool is velocity for a pitcher. A great record means zip to MLB scouts.
One college pitcher had a 2-9 record in a weak conference and was singed after his SR year. I see pitchers who are not good get drafted out of HS with 90+ FBs. Just the way it is.
One college pitcher had a 2-9 record in a weak conference and was singed after his SR year. I see pitchers who are not good get drafted out of HS with 90+ FBs. Just the way it is.
baseballregie,
Will your son be playing anywhere this year?
Will your son be playing anywhere this year?
It's not as much as where you are and what you're doing but where you can go and what they think you can you do when you get there.
SORRY
SORRY
quote:Is every excellent college player a pro prospect ????
I'd say no. I think it is possible to have a very good college career, but not have the percieved tool set for pro ball.
Take a college centerfielder who has a very good year. Maybe the scouts see him as too slow for CF and not enough power for a corner guy. He's stuck as a tweener. JMO! It could be the same for a middle infielder. Maybe he gets a late round pick after senior year where the money carries little risk, while watching players he outperformed get drafted sooner. They may have a tool(s) more readily associated with where they would be projected to play as a pro.
quote:wayback posted: Maybe the scouts see him as too slow for CF and not enough power for a corner guy. He's stuck as a tweener.
Man there are alot of those guys. The corner OF's in minor league ball can usually fly and generally have very good arms. They look like more the powerful college CF's.
This past fall I asked almost the very same question of a pro scout. Here was his response (via email):
"I would say that the best college players usually make a good transition into the minor leagues, however, those that make it through the system to the major leagues is much less. The biggest obstacles for position players other that better competition is the wooden bat, speed increase of the game, and duration of the season. That's why physical strength is so important. Why do some good college players not get drafted? They lack major league tools. Performance is seldomly the reason players get drafted, they get drafted on ability. Do they have the tools to compete at the major league level?"
"I would say that the best college players usually make a good transition into the minor leagues, however, those that make it through the system to the major leagues is much less. The biggest obstacles for position players other that better competition is the wooden bat, speed increase of the game, and duration of the season. That's why physical strength is so important. Why do some good college players not get drafted? They lack major league tools. Performance is seldomly the reason players get drafted, they get drafted on ability. Do they have the tools to compete at the major league level?"
Put me down for NO.
But some not excellent college players are prospects... They are looking for tools. And like the scout told me, 'with those tools you could probably be framing doors and windows soon'
But some not excellent college players are prospects... They are looking for tools. And like the scout told me, 'with those tools you could probably be framing doors and windows soon'
.
Oh my how I would like to hear those tools working!
quote:Originally posted by trojan-skipper:
...'with those tools you could probably be framing doors and windows soon'
Oh my how I would like to hear those tools working!
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
baseballregie,
Will your son be playing anywhere this year?
I think he's pretty much thrown in the towel. He did have an opportunity to play in the independent league but passed on it saying that if the MLB scouts never saw anything they like during his senior year that they probably never would in independent ball either.
We had a kid on our travel team at 13U and 14U who just couldn't throw strikes. I mean really couldn't throw strikes. He couldn't hit the ocean from the beach. We didn't take him back in 15U. For his benefit, we were hoping a lesser team would get him some innings. He still couldn't throw strikes. He got a 9 at a PG showcase. The kid is tall and can bring it. The problem is where he sends it. One game he threw twenty-eight consecutive balls without throwing a strike before being lifted (we were up seventeen at the time).quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
The #1 tool is velocity for a pitcher. A great record means zip to MLB scouts.
One college pitcher had a 2-9 record in a weak conference and was singed after his SR year. I see pitchers who are not good get drafted out of HS with 90+ FBs. Just the way it is.
BBregie I know guys who's contracts were bought from Independent ball. RJ Swindle is one that comes to mind. Do you know why they showed no interest ?
I think this is similar to football. How many Heisman Trophy winning QBs either don't get drafted or never make an impact in the NFL? While there might be a strong armed Tom Brady riding the bench somewhere.
Speed and strength/power seem to separate players at each level in sports. What is HS speed/power might not be college speed/power which is not major league speed/power.
I guess that's why I always hear "bigger, stronger, faster" speeches from son's travel coaches.
Speed and strength/power seem to separate players at each level in sports. What is HS speed/power might not be college speed/power which is not major league speed/power.
I guess that's why I always hear "bigger, stronger, faster" speeches from son's travel coaches.
Good thread. I never really thought about it before. It must be a tough thing to accept if you come up as the top dog in your HS, get looks from all the big D1's, have a great, successful college career and not even get a look in the pro's after playing 3 or 4 years against the toughest college competition around. I guess it happens in all college sports.
Kurt Warner
Didn't get recruited by any big colleges. Didn't start until he was a senior in college. No NFL team was interested. Got a job stocking groceries. Played Arena Football. Went overseas to play football. Caught on as a back up with St Louis to another kid from his home town, Trent Green originally from Cedar Rapids, IA. (had to through that CR thing in there). Trent got hurt. Kurt goes Super Bowl Champ and MVP. Then later he ends up getting released. Giants pick him up as a back up and a mentor to Levi. Then he goes to Arizona to be a backup and mentor to another Heisman trophy winner. Then the Heisman trophy guy gets hurt. Insert Kurt in the lineup. Following year and coming soon... The Super Bowl, and the Pro Bowl, once again.
Like him or not... What a story!
Some call him a bible thumper! His story kind of makes you want to go find a bible.
Didn't get recruited by any big colleges. Didn't start until he was a senior in college. No NFL team was interested. Got a job stocking groceries. Played Arena Football. Went overseas to play football. Caught on as a back up with St Louis to another kid from his home town, Trent Green originally from Cedar Rapids, IA. (had to through that CR thing in there). Trent got hurt. Kurt goes Super Bowl Champ and MVP. Then later he ends up getting released. Giants pick him up as a back up and a mentor to Levi. Then he goes to Arizona to be a backup and mentor to another Heisman trophy winner. Then the Heisman trophy guy gets hurt. Insert Kurt in the lineup. Following year and coming soon... The Super Bowl, and the Pro Bowl, once again.
Like him or not... What a story!
Some call him a bible thumper! His story kind of makes you want to go find a bible.
quote:Some call him a bible thumper! His story kind of makes you want to go find a bible.
Amen to that!
It would just seem to me that you would know a little about where you stand if not after leaving high school then surely through your sophomore or junior year. I would think from the talk and chatter you would have a feel as to so there would be no disappointment.
I'm pretty confident where my son stands and that's why we encourage him to study hard.
I'm pretty confident where my son stands and that's why we encourage him to study hard.
Not to offend anyone but there isn't any bible that works on the field unless the player has the talent---and he does not flaunt in the eyeblack, at least not yet
.
It works fine anywhere, even on the field, if you use the right batteries.
It works fine anywhere, even on the field, if you use the right batteries.
....Free Agent by the Green Bay Packers and attended their training camp in 1994, hoping to earn the backup slot behind incumbent quarterback and three-time NFL MVP Brett Favre. To say that the training camp was a disaster was an understatement; his very quick throwing style meshed badly with the offense built around Favre, who would often step back and wait for receivers to get open. As a result of this, Favre and the coaching staff were very hard on Warner, even going so far as to sarcastically call him Pop Warner after an old-time football coach who stayed around too long. Kurt got the final hint when in September of 1994, the Green Bay Packers issued him a pink slip.
Go Cards
Go Cards
Why do you all suppose that Tebow did not declare for the draft.
From my understanding one of the best college QB's would never be able to play the NFL game as a QB. Might get drafted for another position but someone very smart told him to stick it out in college for as long as he could.
I have seen some really great college players not get drafted and some good players get drafted and some never on the radar get picked up as high draft picks their last year, never even playing against wood. I don't know if PG would agree or not, but college stats don't mean much, except of course if you have the tools, and that propels you to a higher pick. One of the players at Clemson, 4th pick didn't have great stats, but a 95-96mph lefty held much weight.
If you try to figure it out, it could drive you nuts. Encourage your sons to enjoy the college game and work hard on their studies, everything else is just a bonus.
From my understanding one of the best college QB's would never be able to play the NFL game as a QB. Might get drafted for another position but someone very smart told him to stick it out in college for as long as he could.
I have seen some really great college players not get drafted and some good players get drafted and some never on the radar get picked up as high draft picks their last year, never even playing against wood. I don't know if PG would agree or not, but college stats don't mean much, except of course if you have the tools, and that propels you to a higher pick. One of the players at Clemson, 4th pick didn't have great stats, but a 95-96mph lefty held much weight.
If you try to figure it out, it could drive you nuts. Encourage your sons to enjoy the college game and work hard on their studies, everything else is just a bonus.
To answer the question...NO.
I have seen where guys have gotten drafted and wondered "why" (especially when looking at stats). However, from lingering around these parts of the HSBBW, I have learned it is as much (more?) about respectability than raw stats. If it were all about stats, you would have many more than 19 D3 guys drafted every year.
I have seen where guys have gotten drafted and wondered "why" (especially when looking at stats). However, from lingering around these parts of the HSBBW, I have learned it is as much (more?) about respectability than raw stats. If it were all about stats, you would have many more than 19 D3 guys drafted every year.
quote:Danny posted: It would just seem to me that you would know a little about where you stand if not after leaving high school then surely through your sophomore or junior year.
Two kids I know drafted in the top 10 rounds as juniors had heard directly from 20-30 teams and nearly as many advisors by April. Contact began fall of sophmore year.
quote:Some call him a bible thumper! His story kind of makes you want to go find a bible.
quote:Not to offend anyone but there isn't any bible that works on the field unless the player has the talent---and he does not flaunt in the eyeblack, at least not yet
No but he has his beliefs and I stand behind a man with beliefs and the heart to display them. Not to start up the Christianity(NOTreligion 2 different things) but if my son never goes far in baseball I hope his belief in God and the bible are the tools he uses to navigate through his life.
Much better than some of the tools you see many of the athletes today use.
fan
Not knocking anyones beliefs-- that is their perogative
Not knocking anyones beliefs-- that is their perogative
Very wide arc on that swing, which generates alot of clubhead speed. Ball go far.
quote:One game he threw twenty-eight consecutive balls without throwing a strike
Holy Cow! Are you serious?
When my son was in college one of the dads, former BL pitcher Bryan Harvey, told me something once. In his opinion, most every player has the ability to play pro ball, but scouts take into consideration the years it would take to develop what was needed on the pro level, how fast they can learn and their age. For pitchers, sometimes velocity doesn't come into play as that usually increases, if their secondary stuff is advanced enough they turn heads. I am not sure about what it would be for position players, maybe how they adjust to wood? How they play their position?
I am not sure if this is correct, but does make some sense to me. He wanted his son to be drafted as a pitcher, a very, very good college pitcher, but was drafted for his bat. He told me that most likely would happen as he approached the game better at his age as a hitter than a pitcher and that was the way it did happen.
I am not sure if this is correct, but does make some sense to me. He wanted his son to be drafted as a pitcher, a very, very good college pitcher, but was drafted for his bat. He told me that most likely would happen as he approached the game better at his age as a hitter than a pitcher and that was the way it did happen.
The answer is no. Just like there are some great HS players that will not be great College players. Are there guys that play in HS that slip through the cracks that could have played in college? Yes. The same can be said of players in college that do not get the opportunity to play professional baseball.
There are guys that rarely play in college for whatever reason that end up playing at the pro level. There are guys that come in as freshman at the college level play for four years and never get drafted. Its too different games , looked at by two different sets of eyes. Just because you do not star in college does not mean you can not play professional baseball. And just because you do star in college does not mean you are pro material.
There are guys that rarely play in college for whatever reason that end up playing at the pro level. There are guys that come in as freshman at the college level play for four years and never get drafted. Its too different games , looked at by two different sets of eyes. Just because you do not star in college does not mean you can not play professional baseball. And just because you do star in college does not mean you are pro material.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
Is every excellent college player a pro prospect ????
No
If the answer is “No” as most of us seem to agree, then the question becomes: “Why Not?” I think that to be fair we should consider just top powerhouse D-1’s where it is assumed get the lion’s share of the top talent throughout the country. The answer again would probably still be “No”. And again the question only screams louder “why not?”
Bigger Stronger Faster, this would seem to describe a top tier D-1 player wouldn’t it? Which elements are missing? Can part of it be that a fair share of the top baseball talent chooses to peruse a career out of college independent of Baseball?
It would seem that the primary distinguishing difference between College and Pro is the wood bat. Although in this thread we hear of pitchers with great success in college, not finding a home in MLB. Is it all about Velocity and Size for them?
How many tools that rank as MLB average does a player need to get a shot?
If a pitcher it would appear that physical stature has about 80% to do with it. 6’2” and up with a wide frame? Is that what it takes? Cruise at 87-90 and touch 92+?
As a position player is it all about hitting with power? Hitting for average at lower levels with metal may not translate very well against better pitching and hitting with wood.
What about speed? If you are a D-1 player running a 6.5 or better does that guarantee you a spot? Especially if you can catch a ball?
We know there are the 5 tools, and they are projected tools, but do they break down evenly? I suppose some clubs weigh them differently, but running speed, hitting for power and bringing the ball 92+ seem to really get you the “leg up”, and trump the glove and hitting for average.
Is it the inner drive that each player possesses a “fault line”? Will some D-1 players love the game so much that they are eager to bust their butt every day get dirty and sore and fight through the pain, and are there others that work their butts off but it gets old after a while and the drive and desire that was required to get them where they are today begins to fade?
How much is “make-up” a factor, the unrated tool that allows the other tools to be honed, refined and improved upon. Perhaps this provides top tier D-1 player or any player for that matter, the additional edge that makes him stand out and become “projectable” to the pro scouting community.
Bigger Stronger Faster, this would seem to describe a top tier D-1 player wouldn’t it? Which elements are missing? Can part of it be that a fair share of the top baseball talent chooses to peruse a career out of college independent of Baseball?
It would seem that the primary distinguishing difference between College and Pro is the wood bat. Although in this thread we hear of pitchers with great success in college, not finding a home in MLB. Is it all about Velocity and Size for them?
How many tools that rank as MLB average does a player need to get a shot?
If a pitcher it would appear that physical stature has about 80% to do with it. 6’2” and up with a wide frame? Is that what it takes? Cruise at 87-90 and touch 92+?
As a position player is it all about hitting with power? Hitting for average at lower levels with metal may not translate very well against better pitching and hitting with wood.
What about speed? If you are a D-1 player running a 6.5 or better does that guarantee you a spot? Especially if you can catch a ball?
We know there are the 5 tools, and they are projected tools, but do they break down evenly? I suppose some clubs weigh them differently, but running speed, hitting for power and bringing the ball 92+ seem to really get you the “leg up”, and trump the glove and hitting for average.
Is it the inner drive that each player possesses a “fault line”? Will some D-1 players love the game so much that they are eager to bust their butt every day get dirty and sore and fight through the pain, and are there others that work their butts off but it gets old after a while and the drive and desire that was required to get them where they are today begins to fade?
How much is “make-up” a factor, the unrated tool that allows the other tools to be honed, refined and improved upon. Perhaps this provides top tier D-1 player or any player for that matter, the additional edge that makes him stand out and become “projectable” to the pro scouting community.