Soriano refuses to play

What a crock! If he doesn't show up again, send him to the minors, he can play 2nd there. Tough luck for the Nats, they got screwed in this deal.

Infielddad....couldn't agree with you more....will be interesting to see how it plays out.....when one thinks himself more important than the whole....what happens to the team?

A tough one for the Nationals......hope they hold the line.......

Suspend without pay indefinitely...

Who's his advisor, Latrell Sprewell or T.O.?

What a big baby. I don't tolerate it on our youth team (I sat my own son ONCE because he didn't want to play the outfield, never happened again), sure the heck shouldn't be tolerated just because someone has a big contract.

Just put him on the suspended list now. No pay, no time credited. Nationals don't have to do anything and even if he sits the season he will not be a free agent next year because of the contract he signed. He's the Nationals property for a year when he playing, on the suspended list the clock and calendar will not start. He will be begging to play sooner than you think.

Not to agree with high paid players but soriano agreed to go there because he was talked into it.If the team deactivates him he wont be paid so he is giving up alot,10 million dollars..I tend to look at this as maybe if they dont want him to play the position he is comfortable with maybe he will just retire..Do you think he needs the money giving up 10 mil. I think there was some lieing goin on somwhere and a man standing up for his rights...Imho

He was awarded $10 million and signed a contract. He got traded, a part of the deal in MLB. Too bad, so sad, now pack up and go play in DC. Unless his pact stipulates that he gets to say where he plays and bats in an order, he's obligated to play and presently in violation of the agreement.

and he doesnt collect the 10 mill if he doesnt play simple as that....

Not surprised and neither should the NATS considering there is a history here of Soriano refusing to consider a move to the OF as well as the Rangers not allowing the NATS to talk to Soriano prior to consummating the deal.

Classic case of Owners vs Union.

- Has the potential for the lawyers to obtain some easy bucks here!

- And if becomes a case, has the potential to reach the higher courts (if not the highest court) in the land!

- MLB Players Union might need/want 'another Marvin Miller' to set precedence!

- I am unable to recall any other DQ (as suggested by the Bowden) after Curt Flood and MLB free agency.

- Bowden could and should be 'fired' by the owners for 'taking a $10M gamble' and NOT asking, and then backing out when Texas GM put the red flags up!

- I haven't leaned to either side (owners vs players) yet. Yet sitting on the fence is no fun either!

- One thing is clear Bowden's fatal mistake is when he delegated F. Robinson to resolve his problem.

Stay Tuned

Bear

Bear, How is the Soriano situation anything like Curt Flood, the reserve clause issues and Marvin Miller's efforts to obtain union status, free agency and happening to "fall" into arbitration rights...since they were the suggestion of the owners.
Soriano has the benefits of all those efforts. Went to arbitration and lost...to the tune of $10,000,000 being his salary. He has a contract to play baseball that was traded to Washington. So far as I know, he does not have a contract to play 2nd base.
Would be interested in hearing why this equates with the efforts of Miller/Flood. I think Soriano is the beneficiary of all they did and the issues don't compare.

The owners deserve what they get.

They constantly "cave-in" to principle; and, don't be surprised if it happens in this case, too.

There are two fundamental isues here.

1) Human beings are not property.

2) If one party to a contract seeks to change the nature or provisions of that contract to the detriment of one party of the contract, the contract is null and void.

Sorianno is not property.

He signed a contract with Texas at a position that has brought him prosperity and renown. Demanding that he perform at a position other than the stated or implied position without his agreement voids the contract.

Been, the owners clearly have the most to lose if this issue is not managed correctly. Can you imagine anyone agreeing to be a manager of a MLB club if Soriano and his approach prevail? Can you imagine the impact on major league baseball itself. Put Manny, David Wells and a few others in place of Soriano and analyze the consequences to MLB if they do not properly manage and prevail.
BTW, Mississippi State in #1 in the BA Poll. I expected a flurry of posts...but I know you are too reserved to "brag".

quote:

He signed a contract with Texas at a position that has brought him prosperity and renown. Demanding that he perform at a position other than the stated or implied position without his agreement voids the contract.

Willie, suggesting that the contract is for Soriano to play 2nd base as opposed to playing baseball is a pretty big leap, I think. While crazy things happen, I haven't seen anything to suggest his contract is to play 2B.
To suggest that it is an implied term of the contract seems the best you can argue. While Soriano is not "property" his contract clearly is and that is what has been traded and what Soriano signed. That is why I support the players in almost every situation... except I really have a problem with this one.

Infielddad....agree.....if Soriano prevails....then he sets a precedent that a player can pick and choose their position...... That would be devastating....for all owners....not to mention the managers. Can you really see that happening? Hope not.....

Playing for Frank Robinson, one of the greatest and truly toughest players of all time, could be the best thing that could ever happen to Soriano. Let's face it, the Yankees gave up on him because he strikes out too much and can't field his position adequately. Rangers followed suit. At some point he needs to stop being a selfish player who loves hitting the long ball and put in the work to be a complete player.

Contrast this to a guy like Chipper Jones, who willingly went to LF and then got bounced back to 3B, as and when his team needed. That's why he has an MVP and a lot of playoff experience on his resume. Or how about a guy like Craig Biggio? Is it any wonder the Yankees gave up Soriano (who refused to move positions) to get A-Rod (who moved willingly)?

Soriano needs a swift kick in the butt, so that he can learn what being a winner is all about. Luckily for him, he plays for Frank Robinson, and he'll get exactly what he needs. This is probably the turning point in Soriano's career, and as soon as he gets his head out of its current darkened location and sees some sunshine he just might appreciate that.

Look at Nomar Garciaparra. There was a time when he would sulk over things like this. Now, he recognizes how lucky he is to be playing MLB. He went to 3B and now 1B to try to play and help his team. Kudos to him! Now let's see Soriano follow suit.

LadyNmom, the owners have traditionally hired "baseball men" to run their teams. When those baseball men get into legal situations, they tend to handle them like...baseball men.
If it is true that Bowden met with or tried to meet with Soriano before the trade to discuss a move to the outfield, didn't get that issue resolved, and then made the trade, he may well have acted like a "good baseball man." Probably saved a few dollars in legal fees...on the front end and may pay dearly in the long run.

If Sorianno is oferred an agreement to play for the Texas Rangers (where he has been playing second base), and Texas knowingly makes the offer and trade knowing that the Nationals are seeking an outfielder, an element of fraud enters the equation.

Sorianno would have been denied reasonable consideration of his duties in the contract.

When Sorianno finds that he has been defrauded, he must refuse to perform. He is thusly withholding his assent to the new terms or conditions.

Omar and the Mets would be glad to have him at second base.

Willie, being "ignorant" and perhaps "egocentric" on both sides does not equate to fraud. There isn't any fraud here.
BTW, I got to watch the Dominican team on Saturday. Soriano did not start at 2B probably because he was 0-WBC. Came up as a pinch hitter with 2 outs in the 9th. If there were such a thing as a "fraud" on the baseball field, that at bat looked to qualify.

Sorry, Willie, but you're nuts. Go to work tomorrow, have your boss change your job description, and refuse to do the job. Real world...you're canned.

Part of the problem with these pampered multimillionaires is that they have no touch with reality.

There is no way "we" can know what Soriano was told when he left Texas (just like we don't know if the Yankees "gave up on him" cuz he couldn't hit or couldn't field!)
LOL
4 time All Star.

What I would like to know is what the National's have done to prepare him to play this new position? Anyone?

Knowing a little bit about what is involved or what SHOULD be involved in a position change at this level, makes me a little curious about penciling him in to LF without proper preparation. Who's been working with him out there? I read since he's been back in camp he's only taken infield?

Of course I think he should play where the team needs him but the club should also put him in a position to succeed. Maybe they have?
We don't know, do we?

Sounds like both sides need some adjustments.

One element of fraud is taking undue advantage or having superior knowledge.

Since this is not a contract of indentured servitude, the contract should be voided or Texas should be liable for his salary.

Sorianno may be the most productive second baseman in the history of the game.

Interesting legal question here. Do I understand correctly from the discussion so far that Soriano went to arbitration and got the $10 million contract through that process? This is what infielddad says. If so, it could be very much the next step in the Curt Flood precedent. Does arbitration still work the same way it used to? You go in you say, I am a 2B who hits .270 with 30 home runs a year with 10 errors [hypothetical, of course]. The player says, I am worth 20 Million Dollars to my present ball club hitting that in that position and the club says, no you are worth $10 million. Arbitrator picks one figure or the other. No compromise unless made outside of arbitration. If so, might be very interesting how this plays out.

Curt Flood refused a trade to Philidelphia from St. Louis and sat out a year with no pay to try and void his one year contract. Courts ruled that the contract was binding on a player for as long as MLB wanted and said Anti-trust laws did not apply to MLB.

So far, Soriano did not veto the trade [don't know if he could] nor has he quit or retired. He refuses to play outfield, a position where his batting average and home runs will probably not make him worth $10 million in arbitration next time around when compared to other outfielders with the same batting average, home runs, etc. Might make for some very interesting legal manuverings on the part of both sides. Doubt if either side [union or owners] want that fight but that doesn't mean Soriano might not want it and has legal counsel that will fight it. In that way [being left out to dry by the union] it might turn out to be like Curt Flood.

TW344

quote:

Originally posted by WillieBobo:
One element of fraud is taking undue advantage or having superior knowledge.

Since this is not a contract of indentured servitude, the contract should be voided or Texas should be liable for his salary.

Sorianno may be the most productive second baseman in the history of the game.

Watching him field is taking undue advantage of the fans ... does that mean that he should be liable for the ticket prices of everyone who came to see him????

Get real WB ..... the big words sound nice and fancy, but you don't have a leg (and neither does Soriano) to stand on.

Without specific language in the contract calling for Soriano to dictate to the organization which position he plays, he is groundless and in violation of the agreement. It is no more complex than that.

Unless his Texas contract that was traded to the NATS stipulates (and hit may these days!) that he is to play 2B, don't see how he or the union have a leg to stand on.

His parents had a meeting in Frank Robinson's office this morning. We'll have to wait and see. Rumor has it that there may be another parent waiting also.

BTW, he lost his arbitration case and was awarded the 10 Mil the Nationals offered.

Williebobo,

It is up to the Nats to determine whether they make the trade or not...no fraud there. They just didn't do their homework and made the trade anyway.

I feel for them, but I am glad the Rangers got rid of him. The Mets want him, they should trade for him and watch him butcher ball after ball at 2nd.

If the Nats GM did try and meet with Soriano before he made the trade, and if that discussion was to discuss a move to the outfield from 2B, and then made the trade when TX refused to allow the meeting, Soriano may have an argument that playing 2B was an "implied" term of the contract that was recognized by both sides. If the GM did not think it was part of the "deal" so to speak, then he will have to explain why he wanted to discuss this with Soriano. By making the trade knowing Soriano's position and without clarifying things, Bowden opened himself up for this. Like I said before, "good baseball men."
Willie, I think you made a valid point with the "implied" term in the contract. Can't buy in to the rest though.

Willie, you are correct in stating that Soriano has the right to refuse to play. The Nationals then have the right to place him on the suspended list. Everyone has rights.

Willie, he is not an employee-at-will who may quit or be fired at any time. He signed a contract. Maybe the contract covers the situation, but I doubt it.

This has been an interesting discussion. At first glance, it indeed appears that Soriano is the party in breach of contract. I hadn't really considered the potential implied terms of the contract as noted above.

I know this would not happen, but suppose they asked Soriano to catch or pitch. I doubt his contract stipulates against those endeavors. Many would probably then favor Soriano's position if they asked something unreasonable like that from him. Maybe he feels it would be unreasonable to play the outfield based on the implied terms and thus, maybe he can make an argument. I know this is a stretch, just something to consider.

I just read the latest newswire release....and not to make light of the situation, but it does sound so Little League....obviously it's not childish to Soriano....he must have his reasons, but it doesn't look good for him.

I've only worked with manufacturing labor agreements/contracts...know they are very different from an MLB contract.....but we would never negotiate language into the contract....or set a precedent.....that would allow an employee to decline to work an assigned position.....why would the Nationals?

I had to laugh at Willie's suggestion that Soriano is maybe the most productive 2B in MLB history. Soriano loves to hit the long ball, and he certainly is adept at that. But he also K's with disturbing frequency and he is regarded as a liability in the field.

Better than Joe Morgan? Ryne Sandberg? Heck, I'd take Craig Biggio over him and maybe Jeff Kent, too.

As for whether he's been prepared to play OF: This is spring training. He just got to his team's camp, and the first thing they did was try to get him some work out there, now, when it doesn't count. He refused.

If he wanted to play 2B, he had all sorts of time to work on his defense and try to supplant Vidro. Doesn't look like the Nats think he made it that far.

I imagine Mickey Mantle would be in the same boat as Soriano with all his strike outs.

Soriano was traded to Texas when Texas already had a second baseman. I would think that it can be unsettling to an athlete to never know what days you'll be playing.

We can say that a player should win his spot every time out, but these guys are high strung primadonnas.

I hope whatever decision is made is in favor of Soriano.

Bowden seems to have known in advance that Soriano had no interest in playing outfield.

I hope the Carps are watching and ready to bring him back to Japan.

First Five Full Seasons

Soriano.........902 hits,159 hr,461 rbi,281 avg
Morgan..........693 hits, 48 hr,219 rbi,267 avg
Sandberg........901 hits, 74 hr,345 rbi,287 avg

When he came to Texas, the Rangers wanted to move him to SS and he refused. They kept him a 2b.

Glad that man is gone from Arlington.

Again, without a specific stipulation providing Soriano with the ability to choose his position and superceding the manager, he hasn't got a leg to stand on legally. He's free and in the United States, so he has the right not to go to left field if he doesn't want to. But for every action in this situation there will be an equal and opposite reaction, which includes the suspended list. My gut tells me that Soriano is attempting to force a trade, knowing that the Nats aren't moving him to 2B. Too bad he has to make himself look so bad in the process.

Take a different angle. Today he goes to left field and again tomorrow and again the next day. Doesn't make a single play, do they keep him in left or find another spot? I believe when he came up with the Yankees it was right around the time Chuck Knobloch went to left..

Is what Soriano did any different then say a player refusing to get in the batters box because is was moved out of his usual spot in the order!

quote:

Sorianno may be the most productive second baseman in the history of the game.

Well, you've lost your credibility, Willie B......Soriano is the equivalant of Ray Durham or Rich Aurilia with a smidge more power...defensively, he isn't close to a Morgan or a Biggio...heck, I'll take Marcus Giles over Soriano any day of the week, just because he's had to work his butt off to overcome the size stigma.

It isn't like it's the first time Soriano has heard of shifting to OF...the Yankees talked about it...the Rangers talked about it...now he's refusing to play OF for a paltry $10 million/year?

The Nats need to give him the ultimatum...play OF or forego his contract. If he wants to walk away from 10 million smackeroonies, he can have a shot at playing 2B for the Tabasco Olmecos or the Cancun Langosteros in the Mexican League

whose playing 2nd for the Nats right now??

Jose Vidro

KellerDad,

Nothing to do with this debate but...

Didn't know that the Rangers wanted him to play SS. Truth is Soriano was originally a SS with the Yankees. Had it not been for the fact Derek Jeter had him blocked, Soriano might have been the Yankee's SS all these years. It was only because of Jeter that he was moved to 2B.

It is strange that he won't make the change, if that's really the case.

Soriano fought the Yankees to remain at 2b (after his conversion from SS). Upon being traded to the Rangers he fought the Rangers to remain at 2B.

Soriano's thinking is that his numbers stack up best against other second baseman rather than outfielders when it comes to determing his personal worth in arbitration/free agency. This is NOT him pushing for what's best for the team or anything else.

Soriano is fresh off an arbitration where his entire "pitch" was about him as a 2B.

Wash mgm't and Soriano did not speak before the trade. Wash was certainly aware that Soriano wants to only play 2B. Soriano has made it clear to anyone/everyone that he only wants to play 2b.

Washington took a chance in trading that they could convince Soriano to change positions. Manager Frank Robinson is an old school, team first, no nonsense guy. Soriano is an all about me, me first kinda guy.

Cannot imagine that Soriano has anything but a standard MLB players contract that does NOT guarantee him his choice of position.

By any legal analysis, Soriano is bound under the current MLB player's agreement structure to play for Washington in the capacity they see fit. He is free to breach that contract, refuse to play, play for no other mlb team, NOT collect 10million dollars and go wee, wee, wee all the way home like the little piggie he is.

But, this is the direction of sports with the me, me, me attitude of far too many other little piggies.

This attitude has also changed the way the game is played. Player's don't want to bunt/sac since that isn't a big stat for arbitration. Player isn't gonna to dive for the ball or make the extra effort and risk injury in that contract year.

It's all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Soriano feels he makes the most $$$$$$$$ at 2b, now will see how the $ picture weighs out from the National's side.

quote:
Sorianno may be the most productive second baseman in the history of the game.

Are you flippin serious?? I will take giles, kent and any # of others. Soriano needs to take his medicine, there is a reason why he has been traded twice.

Hmmmm....Let's see...What is Soriano qualified to do besides playing baseball?

What a fool.

He'll be "marked" with an attitude problem for the rest of his career.

Baseball is a business.

Forget about all this loyalty to the team or city.

Soriano's numbers speak for themselves.

I have yet to find numbers better than his in the history of baseball at second base in the first five full years.

FRAUD occurs when all of the following elements exist:

1) an individual or an organization intentionally makes an untrue representation about an important fact or event;

a) Soriano was granted a contract of 10 million based on his past performance (second base).
b) The Nationals through Bowden signed a second baseman whom they had no intention of playing at second base.
c) The Nationals through Bowden witheld that fact.
d) The Nationals through Bowden made an untrue representation in the services they would request of Soriano. (We may want you to play the outfield.)

2) the untrue representation is believed by the victim (the person or organization to whom the representation has been made);

a) Soriano believed that he had the opportunity to win the starting position at second base
b) Soriano made it clear that he had no intention of playing the outfield
c) at no time did Soriano assume the duties of an outfielder or practice in the outfield.

3)the victim relies upon and acts upon the untrue representation;

a) Soriano met all the conditions of the contract as he understood it
1) He attended Spring Training.
2) He attended the World Baseball Classic as requested by the Commisioner of Baseball.
3) Soriano worked out with the infielders and second basemen at Spring Training.

4)the victim suffers loss of money and/or property as a result of relying upon and acting upon the untrue representation.

a) Soriano is about to lose time of service, monies and prestige due to the Nationals desire to demand that he play a position that he has no interest in playing.

This will be the beginning of players' and owners' stipulation of the exact services requested and offerred by each party in the agreement.

WillieBoBo...thank you for the lesson in fraud...but you should also research labor law and the contractual agreements that result from same.....it's a whole different ballgame....

Very true.

Labor Law has become the biggest farce perpetrated on the employee in American history.

It is the largest conglomeration of selective reasoning I have come across.

WillieBobo,
Sure Soriano can hit but can he field! I recently heard a stat that stated he has the most errors for a second baseman in over 50 years. C'mon, if I had 10 mil just to play freakin' baseball, I get my tail in there anywhere. And, does he really think he's going to play over an excellent fielding second baseman? NO! However, here's my idea: Have Nick Johnson at first, Soriano at second, Vidro at third, and slide Zimmerman over to short now that Guzmans gone. What do you think?

I have no Pride.
For 10 Million, I'd Play HOME PLATE.

Like Bill Clinton once said. "It is all about the anti-trust exemption, stupid." Or was that Marvin Miller. Or perhaps Faye Vincent. Bud Selig???? No, no, sorry now I remember; it was Oliver Wendell Holmes.

A lot of laws don't apply to MLB because Justice Holmes convinced a majority of the US Supreme Court a long time ago that baseball was so unique that anti trust laws did not apply to MLB. Mind you, they apply to football, basketball, hockey, so****err, and every other professional sport, except baseeball.

If I were Soriano's attorney that would be the sledgehammer that would be held over MLB who would then hold it over the Nationals who should, if they are smart, trade Soriano to someone who wants him to play secondbase. Of course, they can release him and someone can pick him up for peanuts. But if they choose none of the above and quit paying him because he won't play outfield [like TO in football] as has been suggested by some, it could get very interesting. MLB might just choke on its own arbitration decisions.

TW344

TW, I wonder if this is the Supreme Court that would cause MLB to worry about overturning the antitrust exemption. While I am concerned about what to expect, this is an area that seems pretty secure with this group of justices.
With that said, I fully agree that MLB/Nationals have to be concerned about the procedure they created that has ended up being their purgatory...arbitration. With all due respect to Willie, one of the labor laws governing MLB and its players is the arbitration process. When you "lose" in arbitration and still get a salary of $10,000,000, that is a pretty player friendly forum. Personally, when I see comparisons in this thread betwen Soriano and Mantle and other great players, it seems pretty offensive. Mantle injured his knee playing right field while DiMaggio finished his career in center. Soriano shouldn't be mentioned in the same thread/story/book,etc as Mantle. His actions are wrong. Unfortunately, I am not sure that the Nats have handled this too much better. And there we see the real difference between the NFL and MLB. If the Nats release him, they pay him $10,000,000. The Eagles knew they could discipline T.O and pay him nothing...and they did.

I have to say I am quite impressed with the Texas Rangers' 28 year-old General Manager, Jon Daniels. Not only did he rid the team of a sore spot which would have doomed the Rangers to the worst outfield in all of baseball but he actually hosed someone else instead of the Rangers getting the short end....again.

Maybe this is a turning point for Dallas-area pro teams?!!

Yep, no more too-gooders for this sports town!!!

Matter of fact, I am reading right here in the sports section that our beloved Cowboys just signed some guy named Terrell Owens? Anybody know anything about him....?

quote:

Soriano's numbers speak for themselves.

I have yet to find numbers better than his in the history of baseball at second base in the first five full years.

Willie Bobo, looking at his stats, and projecting them, providing he's able to continue his career, Soriano projects to be the offensive equivalant of Jeff Kent...HR's, BA....that's the good news.

Ready for the bad news...defensively, he looks like the second coming of Edward Scissorhands...

Want more comparisons? Well, Pete Rose was kicked out for betting on baseball...Soriano is going to be kicked out because he's betting that someone in baseball is stupid enough to cave in to him...

Well, maybe that's not fair to Pete...after all, he did pretty much play every position except pitcher and catcher...and he'd have probably done that if his team needed him to...ah, that's the word Soriano hasn't grasped yet..."TEAM"...

If I was in the Nat's management, I would be looking to void his contract for refusal to play. If I was a Nats player, I'd be in a team meeting with Frank Robinson, telling him if Soriano wins his little battle and plays second, he'll be awfully lonely on the field by himself. This has the potential to be very ugly.

Of course, Bud Selig is nowhere to be found...he's probably hiding in the closet waiting on the latest steroid tell-all book to show up from Amazon.com.

If he really wants to play 2B, the Hyundai Unicorns may need one in the Korean League.

Unless his contract says he can choose where he plays, which I doubt, Soriano has no argument and no case. He had a big time lawyer I'm sure help write his contract. Some of these spoiled brats have written in special housing on roadtrips, private plane usge, seasons tickets (like they can't afford them), off season training fees, family travel, double lockers, etc., so don't tell me Soriano couldn't have asked for a "second base clause". Maybe he should've seen "The Santa Clause" as part of his contract preparation. He might not have gotten a "Second Base Clause", but if it isn't in there, end of discussion.

In truth we are all flapping our jaws in the wind--

None of us know what went on in arbitration--we only assume.

None of us know if the Nationals talked with Soriano before he came to the Nationals.


And what is this about his parents meeting with the Nationals? Are we in LL ? Doesn't Soriano have an agent?

None of us know whst was/is in his contract at Texas and now with the Nationals.


What is funny Frank Robinson is saying NADA, absolutely NADA. WHY?

An interesting footnote -- my wife has on video Soriano goofing with us when he was at Norwich, then a Yankee Double A farm club,when we had the grandkids to the pregame fun that is always there at Norwich. One has to wonder if he has changed that much or is what we read and hear in the media not the full story

I think that perhaps we will never know BUT I can tell you this as Met fan I would take him even up for Diaz, as they are talking about in NY, in a heartbeat and the deal fills key needs for both teams.

Soriano has stolen more baes in five years than Kent has stolen in 14.

Soriano is just 29 and coming into his baseball prime.

Soriano has numbers comparable if not better than Hall of Fame second basemen after five full seasons.

As far as his errors, I have seen him range further than most second basemen and be awarded an error for making the great attempt. So many infielders have range for the routine play only.

Soriano has speed to steal bases, stretch doubles into triples, go from first to third or second to home on a base hit.

Three years out of his five full seasons, he has 30 home runs and thirty stolen bases. He drives in runs, hits for decent average, averages about 170 hits a year. Every one of his full seasons his OBP has been 300 or better.

There are only two of the Hall of Fame second basemen that I might choose over him, Rod Carew and Rogers Hornsby.

TRhit - I'm not sure, but I THINK the reference to Soriano's parents meeting with Frank Robinson was meant as a joke, but in this day and age, who knows? Surely you're not implying that "the Media" may not print the WHOLE truth? (That was certainly intended as a joke).

BTW - In the St Louis paper today is an article suggesting that Soriano COULD end up as the Cardinals 2nd baseman. Grudzelanek's (sp?) gone and none of the pretenders to the 2nd base throne are looking good. The STL/P-D article (again, this IS "the Media," so take it w/ a bag of salt) suggests that Jason Marquis and a hitting prospect (Gall or Duncan?) could get Soriano from the Nats, IF the Nats pick-up some of his salary. The Cards 2nd base pre-season favorite, Jr. Spivey, has hit .157 for spring...and its a WEAK .157, w/ LOTS of strikeouts. Wouldn't that be interesting?... If Soriano has become the cad some make him out to be, maybe close exposure to "Mr. Team" (David Eckstein) would sober him up.

By the way, the "lesson on fraud" was flawed. There are 8 elements, and the standard is "material" fact, which is not the same as an "important" fact.

03/02/2006 10:33 PM ET
Q&A with Jim Bowden
Nats GM excited to see new-look team on the field
By Bill Ladson / MLB.com


MLB.com: One of your biggest deals this offseason was acquiring Soriano. Based on your scouting reports, what made you think he could play the outfield?

Bowden: In a perfect world, we would have made a trade for an everyday outfielder that could be an offensive force. We were not able to find that type of player in a trade, so the best player we found -- without giving up our top players -- was Soriano. We recognize the problem that he wants to play second base. But we want to win. So you have a choice: Make the deal or don't make the deal. But if you make the deal and he plays the outfield, your team is a lot better. If you don't make the trade, you are not going to get better. You going to have the same offensive team you had last year.

MLB.com: Are you surprised that it has become a big issue about Soriano playing the outfield?

Bowden: I think you always have to prepare for worst-case scenarios, and this scenario was something that we thought was possible. Certainly, we hoped once he got to Spring Training that he would be willing to try playing the outfield for us.

We knew this about Alfonso: He is a great person. He is a great teammate. He has a big heart. He wants to play every day and he wants to have success. Right or wrong, because of his tremendous makeup, we felt that he would, at the end of the day, at least consider what Chipper Jones, Alex Rodriguez and so many other have done. And that is move in order to help the team win baseball games.

MLB.com: Do you think the controversy will be over when the World Baseball Classic comes to an end?

Bowden: I think that this situation, one way or another, will be settled by Opening Day in New York City on April 3. That day. It might be 10 minutes before game time.

I have read in the media that while Bowden was at the winter meetings, he wanted to meet with Soriano prior to the trade and discuss moving to the OF. The Rangers refused. Red flag for the Nats.

Here is the link for the press conference of non-statements. Being clear about being unclear.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/nationalsjournal/2006/02...ress_conference.html

WHAT A TRAVESTY!! It's hard to believe that this thread has evolved into whether his contract has a clause in it that says he will only play second base for $10,000,000.

The Old Timers must be rolling over in their graves! Those guys would have played any position the manager asked them and after the game, swept the stands, cleaned the bathrooms, dragged the field, washed the uniforms, and then asked "What else?"

GIVE ME A BREAK!!!! IT'S A GAME!!! All this "legal" mumbo-jumbo makes for great discussion but it doesn't(or shouldn't) detract from the real issue(IMO) which is how
selfish and self-centered pro athletes have become. My gosh, after Soriano's pitiful
performance for the Yankees in the World Series he should be thankful that he's still
around. Obviously, some GM's think he's worth the money and more power to him for getting
it but he needs a dose of reality. What else could he do and make 1/100th of what he's getting now?

BTW there are plenty more like him that think they are indispensible. I don't blame
Soriano for the attitudes of today's players but it's a sad situation when kids who played the game for fun using milk cartons for gloves on streets and rocky fields are
now too into themselves to play on beautifully manicured green grasses for the paltry
sum of $10,000,000 a year!

I know of one player(there may be others) that switched positions and became NL MVP. Played for the Atlanta Braves.

I'm over these babies.

BOBO

In my eyes with your statements you are losing credence with your posts-- only Carew and Hornsby above Soriano !!!!

You have to be kidding me !!!!!!

Let me ask you this and no offense intended--where you born in this country? --I only ask this because there is a common theme in your posts

Soriano was acquired from the Rangers on Dec. 7 for outfielders Brad Wilkerson and Terrmel Sledge and right-hander Armando Galarraga. The trade didn't become official until Dec. 13, because Wilkerson was on a trip to the Bahamas.

Texas denied Washington permission to talk to Soriano about a switch from second base to left field until the players took their physicals and the trade was official.

"[The Nationals] didn't tell me about the switch until after the trade," Soriano said. "[The Rangers] didn't want them to talk, because they know what the problem is. The Nationals had to know how unhappy I would be."

BOBO

Do not ignore the question please

I'm surprised at how many people are taking managements side here. I don't understand the animosity towards Soriano. The minute a player gets good enough to call his own shots, people turn on him. I saw the same thing with Cal Ripken's streak. As soon as he had a slump people were calling him selfish for not taking himself out of the lineup. Management is made up of some of the coldest people out there. Businessmen who only care about the bottom line. When the NFL players complained about astroturf shortening their careers, one owner was quoted as saying "You'll play on concrete if we tell you to."

Professional baseball, like football, is a business, not a game. Nobody on this site knows what Soriano and Nationals management know so why the attack on the player.

Just because we use baseball to teach our kids about teamwork, self-sacrifice and discipline doesn't mean we should expect professional athletes to be concerned with the same things. They're millionaires, with agents and lawyers helping and advising them.

Nobody says a word when top actors or musicians make demands that are selfish. They are entertainers just like athletes and the truth is that 99% of them are exploited by management unless they are lucky enough to make it to the very top.

One more point, to all of the parents of talented kids on this site. Imagine the bitterness you would have towards management if your son was Eric Crouch. Here's a kid who broke tons of records at one of the biggest college programs out there and was told by the NFL he had no chance of being drafted unless he changed positions from QB to WR. What a crock! What a sham!! Seeing how many, many players who are screw ups get 2nd and 3rd chances with other teams, this was collusion by all 30 NFL teams to block one player from succeeding in the league. Why, because the only running QB's allowed into the league are black ones. It is the NFL's latest attempt to draw fans. They consider the pocket passer bad for business and want him replaced with the Vick type QB. Someone they can market as "The most exciting player in the game." That's why Vince Young will be drafted early in the 1st round even though he has a questionable arm and questionable intelligence for an NFL QB. That is why the NFL continues to advertise Vick as the NFL's most dangerous weapon after 5 years of mediocre play. Meanwhile, Eric Crouch, who is exactly the prototype QB(if black) the NFL is promoting, is told to switch to reciever because the NFL has no interest in having him be the poster boy for the new wave of NFL QB.

Eric Crouch lost millions, maybe tens of millions, because of the NFL's racist policies. He retired rather than switch positions. He is now playing in the CFL as a backup QB. Baseball also has its policies in place and the players who suffer the most are our sons.

Every year thousands of quality players graduate from their respective colleges. Yet Major League Baseball continues to sign, at rock bottom prices, foreign ballplayers instead of our sons. The Minor Leagues are 50% foreign players despite college players being almost all home grown.

It's no mystery that Bud Selig embraces foreign players. One look at last years All-Star game tells you all you need to know about the direction MLB is looking to go. Our kids are being pushed aside for cheap foreign labor. That is what you are supporting when you side with the owners.

I agree, Todays players have no idea how lucky they are just to be able to do something you love and be way overpaid for it!

Yes, from an offensive stand point, they are the only two who have contributed as much as he has and should project to contribute in the future.

I saw Morgan, Javier, Sandberg, Richardson, Carew, Mazeroski, Hunt, Lanier, Hobbs and many other good second basemen. None were 30 -30 guys. They were usually light hitting defensive specialists.

In my opinion, Soriano has far more to offer a team.

Dear old Dad says:

quote:

It's no mystery that Bud Selig embraces foreign players. One look at last years All-Star game tells you all you need to know about the direction MLB is looking to go. Our kids are being pushed aside for cheap foreign labor. That is what you are supporting when you side with the owners.

you are exactly right!!
I was on the fence but now MUST favor the player ... hey wait a minute ...

the player is a FOREIGNER

What does racism have to do with this discussion???

Just about all of our families were foreigners in this nation at one time.

My great great grand parents came to this country for a better life.

Baseball has accepted players from other countries for decades.

Dear Old Dad,

I think you need an education in sports management as well as a course in tolerance.

mr Hit,
check your dictionary, next go to the MLB draft rules.
international players fall into a different catagory than American & college players.
DoD has the makings of a valid point re MLB expoliting a cheap international (latin) market, though I'm not yet following how it ties in here, except that Soriano had a milk carton for a glove in his younger days ... I'll wait for more ...

Soriano is a fine power hitter who can steal bases, and that is about it. He is tied for the worst fielding pct by a second baseman in the last 50 years. Soriano is a pathetic 2nd baseman and the record proves it. His on base pect. of .320 is well below average. He is really a DH masquerading as a 2nd baseman. Many great players have been moved to other positions during their careers and it was to improve the team. They all got paid and so is Soriano to the tune of ten million. Soriano is also 30 years old, not 29 and history shows that the stolen base numbers will start going down, not up.

He has two seasons of 100 RBI's or more and if he drives in 100 or more 6 more times, he will then be tied with Jeff Kent, who is a below average fielder, but his fielding average is way ahead of Soriano's. His .280 career batting average is 9 points below Kent and his career .320 OBP is 32 points below Kent. As far as stretching hits into triples, he has 16 triples in 6 years!!!!! big deal.

If he does not want to play left field, he can then go home and sulk. They are doing him a favor by moving him to left field as he is a brutal 2nd baseman and does not belong there. If he could play 2nd base well, Texas would never have traded him in the first place.

I love baseball and have no real interest in other professionsl sports; being that way, I have higher expectations for the behvior of the gentlemen who play our sport. There have been a few more ego-first examples this ST and that may well have heighten some of our ire toward the Soriano situation.

Apparently Soriano's offensive production has allowed him to be an exception to the Strength Up The Middle rule. This is what happens when you stray from The Book. I don't quite understand his refusal to play OF. He's not terribly good at Second, so not being terribly good at a position shouldn't bother him.....

MLB news is reporting this morning that Soriano will play Left field as requested by the Nationals. 10 million "reasons" were given

This is absurd.He gets paid 10 million and he cant just make the move to LF?He is a terrible 2nd baseman and if he were to move to LF he could focus more so on hitting

Then again look at it this way.It was a known thing that he didnt want to move to the OF,the nationals knew this when they traded for him.I also have to fault bowden here.He has been an All-star at 2b(for offense ofcourse)and is a vet so he feels that he shouldnt have to switch.
Then again you have guys like erstad who have been moved all around the field and won GG at each position.Thats what it should be like

I guess it goes to show you can drag a horse to water,but you cant make him drink it.

Both sides are at fault here

Great news. It will coincide with the release of his new book on Amazon.com:

"How to Ruin Your Baseball Reputation with One Simple Refusal."

Doubleday isn't the publisher.

Baseballdad1228:

Clever!

According to mlb.com, he'll be in LF for today's game.

Orlando

He may be out there in left, but he doesn't have to like it one little BIT!

Oh, I made myself laugh.

Pobrecito.

Cards fans aren't interested in Soriano (attitude or D); they're talking about Vidro!

With Nationals GM Bowden threatening to request MLB Commissioner that five year vet Soriano be DQ should he again refuse to take the field for a game, Soriano loses bucks and service time.

With that said, Soriano could lose eligibility (if sat out a year...like C. Flood) and when seeking employment elsewhere, (after the season) would lose free agent status with no service time.

If not DQ, Sorianos a free agent after 2006. With his common sense reconsideration of his options (or lack thereof), and after chatting with his bride and agent, I expect power numbers from Alfonso (something to prove scenario) as a motivator for the new Nationals LF (and in a pitcher's ball park).

OBTW: Alfonso is NOT the bad guy here. Never has been, and won't be in the future. Bowden, who never work a jock, (and is considered by many as NOT a baseball guy), may very well be.

I'm off-my fence, and rooting for Alfonso.
There are too many 'administrators' on this thread that have taken sides with the 'owners'.

cheers
Bear

quote:

Originally posted by Baseballdad1228:
Dear Old Dad,

I think you need an education in sports management as well as a course in tolerance.

Sorry Baseballdad1228,

I have no tolerance for the exploitation of people. Especially Americans! Watching Corporate America dump on American citizens should enrage any true-blooded American. I don't see the Japanese league letting foreigners into their league unchecked. They have limits to keep the game their own and to give their citizens a place to play. MLB on the other hand, pays about $3,000.00 dollars to the average foreigner and runs thousands of them through the Minor Leagues looking for cheap talent. All at the expense of people like you and your son.

Baseballdad1228, you are the one that needs to take a closer look at management policies within corporations in this country. There isn't a single corporation in America that doesn't have quotas for who they hire. What makes you think MLB is any different. The fact that they can bring in immigrants willing to work for a fraction of the cost of what an American would be willing to work for should bother any intelligent non-liberal American.

The Government keeps passing laws to allow illegal immigrants to work in this country for corporate profit. And why not, these corporations are making our immoral politicians rich. This country continues to weaken in comparison to other countries around the world in all categories while our sell-out Government makes millions from foreign sources. They keep telling us diversity is in our best interests as they cut our pensions and give free education and health care to invaders.

Most people in this country have no idea how bad things have gotten. Hospitals all over the Southwest are being forced to shut down due to all the illegals they legally have to care for while receiving no money. Mexican gangs have infiltrated every major city in America bringing drugs and crime with them.

Rupert Murdoch has bought the website Myspace.com and has pledged a billion more dollars to the buying up of the WWW. Since Murdoch bought Myspace, censorship has become commonplace on that website with censorship to follow more and more on the internet. Corporations are in the process of taking back the only media outlet where the truth can be spoken and heard.

These are the people you seem to be siding with Baseballdad1228, so before you take any more cheap shots at me or Soriano, I suggest to you to take a closer look at the pillaging that is going on right in your backyard.

One other thing, what do you care if Soriano doesn't want to change positions. In fact, why does anyone have a problem with it. Doesn't he have freedom of choice anymore. Maybe he would rather quit than change positions. He has every right to decide for himself and be the master of his own destiny. In a previous post you say that Soriano is in violation of his agreement. So what. That's his choice. I haven't heard one negative word from Soriano towards anyone involved in this.

Eric Crouch is a BACKUP qb in the Canadian Football League? That being the case, what exactly was the point you were trying to make?

quote:

OBTW: Alfonso is NOT the bad guy here. Never has been, and won't be in the future.

Agreed.
I am hoping for "good routes" to all ball hit out that way, and good production from the leadoff spot.

After reading your post, my first suggestion is to forward a copy to your congressman and senator. They will have to address the problems you have with the Unites States government and its laws pertaining to immigration and the growing issue of gang violence.

Baseball is not like any other business. Go and look up its antitrust exemption for a start.

You complain that baseball gives opportunities to immigrants because it only pays them $3,000.00 for the chance of becoming a multi-millionaire like your Soriano, yet you commend the Japanese for controlling rosters and giving foreign players limited opportunity. Baseball is to be played at the highest level by the most talented and best performers, regardless of birthplace, nationality, color or creed. No quota necessary, thanks anyway. Like the way Japan does it? Buy youself a plane ticket and enjoy the sushi.

Freedom and opportunity are the foundation of our nation. Immigrants seeking a better life for their families have come here for centuries to take a shot at the American Dream. Baseball has provided that dream for many. As for its impact on me and my son, I wasn't good enough to play MLB and time will tell if he is. But I will defend the rights for anyone to go for that brass ring, no matter where that individual comes from. I can't imagine a baseball without Roberto Clemente, Sammy Sosa, Ozzie Guillen, Juan Marichal, Albert Pujols or even a Soriano and so many more.

And my guess is that Rupert Murdoch is more concerned with adding to his billions than censoring what people like you have to say. You overestimate your importance. You also have a very strong Constitution protecting you.

Soriano has a contract to play baseball, not to play the position of his choice. What he did was wrong. It's that simple for me.

Your problem areas seem far deeper and wider than baseball and its role in today's society. Perhaps you should run for your town council and begin changing the world in your neighborhood.

quote:

Originally posted by Holden Caulfield:
Eric Crouch is a BACKUP qb in the Canadian Football League? That being the case, what exactly was the point you were trying to make?

Crouch just signed in Febuary and hasn't played QB since college. It makes sense that he would join the team as a backup and have to win the starting QB job.

Baseballdad1228,

I have no doubt that we could argue all day on this and probably other subjects. But my goal is not to hijack this thread forever. Suffice it to say, the support of management on this topic surprises me and that was my original point. Why people get mad at players for sticking up for themselves I will never know.

P.S. The Constitution of the United States has been made obsolete with the passing of the Patriot Act. You and I really do not have rights, sorry to be the one to tell you the bad news.

Players should stick up for themselves when negotiating their contract and then go honor it. Soriano's refusal to play was in violation of the contract HE signed. That's my point.

If I remember baseball (really any sport)- back to my t-ball days the manager makes the lineup and the players play where they are told. This isn't about racism, exploitation, fraud, contractual disputes, union issues, freedom, slavery, misrepresentation etc. etc..

Soriano is a baseball player and a member of a team. He signed a standard mlb contract to play (contract don't say much more than that in this regard). Frank Robinson is the manager of the team. Robbie wants the player-Soriano- to play left field (not commit an illegal act, not act in breach of contract, not march on to war).

The player needs to follow his manager's (legitimate) instruction and play left field or refuse to play, breach his contract, not be paid and leave the team.

Soriano may love to play 2b. He may think that's his best position. He may think he can make the most money as a 2b. He may think he can get into the HOF as a 2b. He may think gold is buried under 2b bag. His manager told him to play left field. He should have done so and is now doing so. Every t-baller knows that's what you do when the manager says so.

Maybe he hasn't played since college because he was a one-dimensional college player? In his Heisman Trophy season he never passed for over 200 yards. That may fly in college but a pro QB it does not make. Plus, he won in a year where all of the top QBs turned out to be weak:

Eric Crouch,
Rex Grossman,
Ken Dorsey,
Joey Harrington,
David Carr,
Antwaan Randle El

Oh yeah. One more thing. If the NFL was in the midst of a plot to ostracize the running white QB, please explain the career of Antwaan Randle El. Last time I checke, he was being fitted for a new Super Bowl ring for his outstanding play as a, all together now...

WIDE RECEIVER

Soriano played left field today and the reports were that he was happy as a lark even signing autographs before the game

Remembering you will have a W-2 at the end of 2006 that reads $10,000,000 will make one happy.

Mountains out of molehills. Something we seem to do really well on this site. Along with ESPN and most other sports media.

Soriano:

Just hit the ball. Don't try to hard in left field because if you make a lot of errors by hustling on tough plays and have bad fielding STATS, almost everyone will hold it against you if you refuse to switch to catcher. But then, they will hold it against you if you don't hustle either. Oh well, do the best you can kid. Free Agency is just around the corner.

TW344

Originally posted by WillieBobo:
Sorianno may be the most productive second baseman in the history of the game.[/QUOTE]
Sorianno is no good to the nationals @2b he has 102 errors since 2001.The current 2b only 41 since 2001.The nats should have talked to about the move before the trade.But if his contract doesnt state that he play 2b he needs to suck it up and play.he wont make any more error in the of than he does at 2b

TW

quote:

Soriano:

Just hit the ball. Don't try to hard in left field because if you make a lot of errors by hustling on tough plays and have bad fielding STATS, almost everyone will hold it against you if you refuse to switch to catcher. But then, they will hold it against you if you don't hustle either. Oh well, do the best you can kid.

Agree completely. Do you remember how many errors Jeter made in the beginning? And he has gone on to win the rings and fans are still complaining about his range, etc.

Soriano had to borrow an outfield glove last night. This was the comment from the Washington Times:

The Nationals now face the daunting challenge of teaching Soriano how to play the outfield in less than two weeks before the April 3 regular-season opener. Aside from five spring-training games in left field with the Yankees in 2001, Soriano has never played the position.

Soriano will have no problem in the OF--his bat precedes him

Someone came into work today and said they heard on the radio that Soriano changed his mind after talking with the manager and his wife. No bad mouthing Robinson, but I think the latter told him to get off his duff and get to work!!!
Tim Robertson

A recent Baseball Tonight report made me pull up this old thread and read through it again. BT reported that Soriano is now telling the Nats he WANTS TO STAY!

What a difference 4 months can make. He's been pretty decent in left, his offense is awesome, the team isn't a contender but it's respectable and moving in the right direction. Maybe he sees a chance to be "THE GUY" on a future winner?

Congrats to him on his attitude adjustment. Always glad to see a guy reap rewards from doing the right thing, too.

I still think his playing for Frank Robinson is probably the best thing that could ever have happened to him.

Midlo Dad

quote:

Maybe he sees a chance to be "THE GUY" on a future winner?

You bring up a good point.
Is Baseball a ego driven must be the guy type Game.
Or is it supposed to be a Team type Game?

I know Basketball is That way, they have such Fragile Ego's.
But there only 5 player's on the Court at one time.

It seem's like Football WR are Ego Driven, need to be Pampered.

But Baseball, I feel should not be that way.
There so much Failure, and so little Glory.
That I believe that Ego would get in the Way of Success.
JMHO EH

Maybe the "I want to stay" comment is part of the "Mind Game" that happens when trade talks or contract negotiations come up. In Milw Carlos Lee did the same thing two weeks ago. He went public saying that he wanted to stay a Brewer, Milwaukee offered him 48 mil over 4 years and Lee/agent never even countered. He was in Texas the next day. Talk is cheap at times.