Sports Fairness?

Funny thing--- I was brought up to respect authority and the Coach is that authority---perhaps that is because my dad was a Lt Col in the Army and his thinking was simple--the man in charge is the man in charge and you obey instruction, yopu do not question it--- he would never have even broached the subject as posted above-- it was what it was--plain and simple.

Funny thing--my kids were brought up the same way--you respect authority--you dont laugh in its face--

My son as a frosh could have been the starting CF on the varsity but his coach was loyal to his seniors so my son played every inning of very JV game and was the starting varsity CF for the remaining three years--did he complainm NO !!! Did I? NO !!! That was the way the coach ran his program. We knew it going in.

The thinking may have changed for others over time but not for me--I still believe that authority is authority and the coach is the coach--maybe that is why they, the school officials and coach, worked hand in hand with me to assist my son and his dream of playing college baseball at the Division I level.

We run our program the same way--the coaches are in charge--if you don't like how we spell it our for you then don't get on the bus---simple as that. Someone else will be happy to wear the uniform and sit in your seat.

Perhaps that is why we are successful--the people who should be in charge are in charge--no prisoners running the prison here--they never have and never will

Just my thoughts

Wonderful post and I agree with you 100%. But there are times when things are not clear coming in. There are people in authority who abuse that authority as we have seen in many areas of our lives. There are others who live vicariously through their children's accomplishments.There are also people who have loyalty while others do not value the quality.

Authority in a child's life will always be in the hands of the parents. Should the parents make the decision that their child is not getting on the bus, there should be no repercussions or hard feelings. A thank you from both parties for their time together should end that relationship.

Seeking repercussions in most cases is a sign of immaturity. An immature person in authority is never a good thing, be they a coach or a parent.

I believe in the "old school" way of coaching as well. However, sadly, we've run into a couple
of old school coaches who have "lost" it. Become abusive and/or irrational in their coaching
methods to a fault. Should a young player hang around waiting for his chance when it is obvious
to any thoughtful, rational person that something is wrong?

When should a player(with parental guidance) make the decision that a change is needed? Or should
he stick it out in hopes that the administration will somehow see how bad the situation is and
make the necessary change. Could it possibly be too late for a kid with talent to take that
chance?

Our son basically played for the same coaches most of his life. He wasn't a team hopper, going from one team to the next to get playing time or a championship. That's just how he did it, that was what we taught him.
Like TR's son, he sat and awaited his turn. If he got the job done, he didnt have to worry about playing time. He remained loyal to his coaches when others tried to steal him away, and his loyalty was rewarded. We as parents were more concerned with him enjoying his team mates and learning about the game and himself.

I'll never forget when we played years ago in the USA tournament. Some kids jumped ship to go to what they felt was a better team. Good players. In the meantime our team sent more finalists to Houston than any other team. Parents of these kids knew they goofed.

The following fall when we played the first year PG in Jupiter, ALL of those kids wanted back on the team. They got to come back, but they SAT and were used as subs.

We have been lucky in finding coaches that rewarded hard work and loyalty to their players, not necessarily the BEST players. They were well connected and liked within the baseball community and known for their programs in developing players for the college level, not always for winning.

Sometimes a change HAS to be made, there is no question about it. But there are too many looking for the greener grass on the other side. And they are looking for it when their kids are younger and younger (JMO), I just don't understand. I don't understand when they say, "my son and the coach don't get along", only to try to come back to the team stating the son didn't get along with the new coach either (actually it was the parents).

I have seen players and parents take more than their share of unfair treatment and their sons have suffered because of their “loyalty” to the coach or the program. I don’t blame these parents and players for sticking with it but at the same time I do feel as if they were used. If I had been in their shoes I would have been making suggestions to my son about moving on. I might add that different players are treated differently. The most talented players are seldom the victim of unfair treatment, whereas a “good” player may find himself treated unfairly. If indeed “fit” is necessary for a good baseball experience then why should we ignore a bad fit?
Fungo

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Posted Aug 7, 10:44 PM
I have seen players and parents take more than their share of unfair treatment and their sons

Amen

I have seen the worst in both parents and coaches. It goes on at all levels of play in almost all leagues.

Coaches have been so vindictive in some cases as to call the coach of the new school and ask that he not play that child. One horrible case was a coach not even considering the younger brother of one child who left his program and came back to beat him in tournaments and District games. An AAU coach called the new coach and claimed that the child's parent was a problem. Another coach sat another player because the child played the same position as his favorite player and was berated regularly. Another coach played a college coach's son to gain favor with that coach. It goes on and on.

A few years ago when the 'weasel' thing was going on against the French, a child of French ancestry did not make the team. His parents took the school to court claiming that the child was being singled out for being French. One parent called the school board claiming the coach was a drunk. Recently physical attacks have become too commonplace.

My largest concern is that the children do not suffer because egos are bruised.

Thankfully, the majority of programs are well run by individuals with the children's success as their only goal.

I know there are many horror stories about coaches. I know there are many horror stories about parents.
Maybe I need to take my rose colored glasses off, maybe we have just been lucky.

I used to look at the parent vs coach situation with "rose colored glasses" as well. My father coached the big three sports and was an athletic director before deciding to get out and strictly teach math his last years before retiring. I saw first hand how parents reacted to their sons not getting the playing time they "thought" they deserved.

I've also seen parents of my own sons' teammates berate and send letters about "terrible" coaches to newspapers and administrators. Falsely, I might add.

However, I have also stood by and allowed a psychologically abusive coach to berate my son and most of his teammates his freshman year in HS. This was at a private school that had the most talent of any HS team I've ever seen. These boys were also great kids-"Yessir, Nosir" types. This coach told my son after a season-ending regional game-"You would never have been able to play for any other team in Orlando, you should be thankful I gave you the chance to play". This was done on the baseball field while the rest of the team was waiting 30 minutes on the bus for a two hour ride back to Orlando. Reason? He was upset that my son decided to try to get some playing time at Senior LL(15-16) games after sitting the bench for half the season. (HS games came first and no practices or games were missed).

This coach was not invited back the next year but we had already made the decision to transfer to the public school. When other parents found out they called me and told me stories that happened to their sons during the season that were much worse than mine-one boy had nightmares and would wake up crying in fear of what the coach might say to him at practice the next day. We could see the abuse during the games-publicly berating kids for making errors, taking them out of games for not getting a bunt down. But we kept quiet because "the coach knows best".

Never again. If you are lucky enough to have a quality coach then good for you and be very thankful you do. But to say that players should sit back and bide their time because the coaches know best is not the best option for the short time our sons have to prove themselves in this very competitive arena we all love.

Parents need to be on top of the situation at all times but also NEED to know their kids strengths and weaknesses before they go half-cocked after a coach.

My advice is to ask a disinterested party(PG/TR?) to analyze you son's abilities and determine if indeed you may be looking through "rose colored glasses" about how good your son really is. Time is of the essence and if
there is a future for your son, I wouldn't leave it up to the HS coach.

We didn't and are certainly better off because of it.

Sorry, but I think the focus on winning in high school sports is insane. The "problems" with parents or coaches can most often be traced back to the "winning is everything" approach, and the delusion that makes parents think their son will get a scholarship or play professionally, when the reality is that few get even a partial scholarship, and fewer still get a paycheck, playing baseball.

For those whose sons do have such potential, they no doubt already are on travel teams, going to showcases, etc. Having looked over which high schools produced draft choices it seems obvious that the outstanding players will be found, if not at school, at showcases and in summer tournaments.

Let's make high school about getting ready for college academics - something every kid needs to do-- with high school sports playing a subsidiary role, part of teaching every student, through sports or otherwise, the importance of teamwork, and striving for "a healthy mind in a healthy body."

To deny a student/athlete or student the opportunity to change schools for whatever reason is unconstitutional. There are bad schools, bad coaches, bad teachers, and bad administrators. To give them the final hammer on a student/athlete is ludicrous.

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Sorry, but I think the focus on winning in high school sports is insane.

That is really sorry because de-enphasizing the outcome of athletic endeavors contradicts the innate competitive drive of the human species. There were about 5 million years of evolutionary history in which the species rose up out of caves to where we are today. If we weren't competitive we would all be still in caves, if not already completely extinct.

There were societies that proclamed all equal in status, achievement and income. They lasted a mere blink in time. Of course, I am referring to the European communist block countries including the Soviet Union.

Ripem, you want to throw all the scoreboards in a land fill? What a joke.

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Let's make high school about getting ready for college academics - something every kid needs to do-- with high school sports playing a subsidiary role, part of teaching every student, through sports or otherwise, the importance of teamwork, and striving for "a healthy mind in a healthy body."

I think that is called Gym Class, PE. Let the kids with black socks play dodge ball or "T-Ball For Teens" or some such waste of time for the advanced student -athlete.

The fact is that colleges do have athletic programs with athletic scholarships that pay for higher education. Their athletes all come from High School. High schools have mimiced the structure and activites of higher education for the past century.

When college coaches recruiting players quit asking for the name and number of your high school coach, your high school stats, the names of other good high school players and when your next high school game is, you can take down the high school scoreboards. Until then it will remain a stepping stone designed identify the fittest, who will survive and move on to college or professional athletics.

Throwing away the scoreboards is totally from, well, left field. IMO

The world today is very competitive. It doesn't matter whether it is business, work, keeping up with the Jones, or whatever.

I frankly get disturbed by this attitude of school should be about preparing for college only attitude. It shows that you have no concept why we send our kids to school. Not every kid is college material. Somebody needs to fix the cars and empty the trash. School should be about preparing a kid for life. Life is competitive and their are competitively natured people in this world. To deny that basic human instinct smacks of making everybody conform to your point of view. I happen not to share your point of view.

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The "problems" with parents or coaches can most often be traced back to the "winning is everything" approach, and the delusion that makes parents think their son will get a scholarship or play professionally, when the reality is that few get even a partial scholarship, and fewer still get a paycheck, playing baseball.

I have two problems with the above statement. Coaches are interested in winning and parents want their kids to play. you paint everyone with such a broad brush, yet you missed the convas.

My son was told after his 10th grade year that he had no shot of being drafted and that he was delusional. I really believe that there is a place to play for every player that wants to play. That is what the hsbbw is here for. To educate. Whether it is D-1,2,3, juco, NAIA, adult leagues,or intramural, if someone has the desire to play, there is a place to play. Many kids do not play because they have a dream school they want to go to and don't have the talent to play there when they could have gone to a D3 or juco.

You want everybody to see academics through your eyes. I hate it when someboady acts like they know what is best for everybody. If you want to have your children focus on academics and hold sports to a subsidiary role. Then go ahead and raise your kid that way. I just don't really like being judged by somebody because I don't feel that way. I would like to make my own decisions on what is deemed important.

Everybody knows that school is about academics and that that is first. Show me somebody who is against competitiveness and winning and I will show you a......well you get the picture.

You miss the point. We are not talking about winning or making money from the sport. We are talking about playing. The game is an extra-curricular activity that can only be participated in if the cirricular activites are in order. If the child has the desire to attend a school where they may excell at sport as well as scholastics, I see no reason to say no.

Children who wish to participate in extra-curricular activites have the right to try out for the priviledge of making the team. In a perfect world, they would have the expectation that their performance will determine wether they make the team and in what status. Being a suburban area, we have the option of three schools to choose from that a child can attend. Exercising that option shoulld not be cause for punishment or loss of priviledge.

One thing that comes to the fore in your post is that most children who feel that they have talent have to go to a showcase to be noticed. This is sad. There was a time when high school coaches were the main conduit for getting the attention of college or pro scouts. It seems that this is no longer the case.

Wow. So many errors to correct, so little time. I disagree with bigjd, Dad and BigHit. I'll take each argument in turn.

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To deny a student/athlete or student the opportunity to change schools for whatever reason is unconstitutional.

To maintain that position, bigjd, is ludicrous. Can you imagine the chaos if anyone could transfer becuse they didn't like the science teacher, or the color of the walls, or the school mascot? You forget that we all have rights, and that allowing such foolishness would be detimental to the learning environment for the students who went to school for their education. Our schools are not meant to be taxpayer-funded sports academies.

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Ripem, you want to throw all the scoreboards in a land fill? What a joke.

Dad, you need to read more carefully (see what happens when we emphasize sports instead of education). I have nothing against competition. EVERY student should learn about it, and one way they can do so is when they COMPETE to achieve academic seccess! Sports has a place, as I emphasized in my post. The only objection I have is to the insane focus on a winning high school team, which is an attitude that can result in poor academic performance in our schools, misplaced pride, the fostering of unrealistic goals, and resorting to unethical methods (transferring, recruiting, steroids, etc.)to achieve sports "scoreboard" victories.

Dad, you reallly miss the point of what high school sports is about if you think the only goal is winning, whatever it takes. That may provide temporary solace for certain coaches who have very little going on in their lives, or parents who are living through their kids and "getting even" for not making the team themselves, but it should not be the purpose of high school sports.

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When college coaches recruiting players quit asking for the name and number of your high school coach, your high school stats, the names of other good high school players and when your next high school game is, you can take down the high school scoreboards. Until then it will remain a stepping stone designed identify the fittest, who will survive and move on to college or professional athletics.

For most high school athletes, the fittest will be identified, survive and prosper with academics, not sports. Do you have any idea what the odds against even a partial scholarship are, let alone a professional pay check? And why do you think sports is the only place people can learn to compete? Most of our high schoool students will succeed ONLY if they learn to compete academically.

And why are you so obsessed with scoreboards? Did somebody take yours away when you were a kid? I never said anything about them. Indeed, I am a fan of competition, in sports and otherwise, but I don't think that kids moving from high achool to high school, in search of what is for most of them a pipe dream, is healthy for them OR for the other students. If you have reasons you think I'm wrong, let's hear them, but enough of this "scoreboard" nonsense.

And now for BigHit's comments:

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I frankly get disturbed by this attitude of school should be about preparing for college only attitude. It shows that you have no concept why we send our kids to school. Not every kid is college material. Somebody needs to fix the cars and empty the trash. School should be about preparing a kid for life. Life is competitive and their are competitively natured people in this world.

Here, every kid who wants to be is college material, that's why we have JUCOs (and I'm not talking about baseball, although JUCO baseball can be very good.) For those who don't want to go, and want to try to make it with only a HS education, I wish them luck, but it has no bearing on my post. Those "not college material" guys are not going to be competing for college baseball scholarships, are they? And their chances of being a pro are minimal at best. So what is it that bothers you about trying, at least, to keep high school focused on academics? And trying to get those "not college material" kids to wake up and realize that maybe they are wrong, and that they can get an education and achieve a better life? That's all I meant by my post.

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Show me somebody who is against competitiveness and winning and I will show you a......well you get the picture

Well, maybe now YOU get the picture. Youth sports insn't the only competitive arena in the world, indeeed it is "child's play" compared to competing in the workforce and in the world economy. I happen to be a competitor in those arenas, and have a son who is a competitor in both athletics and academics. I believe that, within their assigned school, athletes should have to win the right to compete on the teams that play against other schools, and that the best deserve to play. What does that have to do with my objection to the morally, ethically, and at times legally improper ways people try to win at high school baseball (e.g., transferring, recruiting, steroids, etc.)?

Obviously, I have hit an exposed nerve. No offense was meant, but let's try to debate the role of sports in a high school education and the "winning is everything" attitude, without your falsely accusing me of wanting to do bad things to the scoreboards, of not knowing that some high school students will end up working for the solid waste department, or of being "against competitiveness and winning," whatever that means.

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Dad, you need to read more carefully (see what happens when we emphasize sports instead of education). I have nothing against competition. EVERY student should learn about it, and one way they can do so is when they COMPETE to achieve academic seccess! Sports has a place, as I emphasized in my post. The only objection I have is to the insane focus on a winning high school team, which is an attitude that can result in poor academic performance in our schools, misplaced pride, the fostering of unrealistic goals, and resorting to unethical methods (transferring, recruiting, steroids, etc.)to achieve sports "scoreboard" victories.

Duplicitous at the very least. Good grades are commendable, yet athletic achievement is not. You present not one fact to make a point.

In other words "Try hard in class, but not on the field"

Everyone connected with secondary education for more that a year or two knows the highest achievers on the field are ussually at the top of the list in the class room, as well. Academics and athletics have coexisted and had a symbiotic relationship since they were institutionalized, oh about two hundred years ago.

Should we consult Ripem to find out what is worthwhile efforting?? What if you are not available?

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Do you have any idea what the odds against even a partial scholarship are

The odds against were 0% at my house, from an early age. As a parent that is all that really concerns me. Maybe if the others tried as hard they would have done better. Quite actually, everyone who really wants to play baseball at the next level has that ability. There is a place for nearly every high school player to play in college, likely receiving money to attend.

Quite frankly, I question the basic intelligence of posting on an high school athletic website and demeaning the very participation in the sport in school.

Sort of akin to going on a chess forum and questioning the wisdom of playing the game at all. After all, how many chess players will ever play for a World Championship or make a living at chess?? Obviously, very many less people make a living from chess than any high school sport. I refer only to coaching and administative occupations, not players. Maybe you would better serve society by getting those chess playing kids back in the library, where they belong. Or maybe at least they should not try so hard to win?

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No offense was meant, but let's try to debate the role of sports in a high school education and the "winning is everything" attitude, without your falsely accusing me of wanting to do bad things to the scoreboards, of not knowing that some high school students will end up working for the solid waste department, or of being "against competitiveness and winning," whatever that means.

OK, the role of sports in high schools should be emphasized to a higher extent with better and certified coaching, and higher pay for coaches (teachers) to be competitive with neighboring states, if that's ok with you.

Do you know how many kids keep themselves academicly eligble only because of sports?? Are we better off if those kids would just simply drop out because "winning needs to be de-emphasized"?? Are we?

Do you know how many kids have acquired the self confidence from high school athletics that have propelled them through a bachelors degree and beyond or how many have gotten full scholarships for particpating in non-spectator sport with the experience only available in high school?? Literally thousands of college students would likely not be where they are today had they not learned how to win on the field (legal or not) and in the classroom, in high school.

Winning isn't everything, but it certainly is preferable to the alternative, in the workforce, world economy, classroom or on the athletic field. Isn't it?? At least 5,000,000 years of evolution taught me it was.

We all seem to be saying the same things but from different perspectives. In sport it is understood that one team or individual wins and the rest lose. The participation is the competition. I have always taught children that the winning and losing is not important, but winning is more fun.

The ethic to win at all costs is not being promoted here. What is being promoted is the fact that all coaches, parents and athletes are human. None should be assumed to be perfect.

Transferring is not an illegal means to join a program where you can play. One child in a hundred transferring does not promote chaos, no matter what the reason for the transfer.

Winning at all costs as you say can promote illegal activity, but more often the adult would be the perpetrator of that illegal activity, not the child. A child cannot transfer for recruiting purposes without the consent of his/her parent or guardian. The coach would be at fault for using this improper inducement and seduction of the child and parent.

Academics are the main purpose of high school and college. There are no diplomas or degrees for participation in an extra-curricular activity. The knowledge gleaned in academic study will prepare the child for life in society. Extra-curricular activities are just that, extra.

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Let's make high school about getting ready for college academics - something every kid needs to do-- with high school sports playing a subsidiary role, part of teaching every student, through sports or otherwise, the importance of teamwork, and striving for "a healthy mind in a healthy body."

Why can those things not be achieved if hs sports play a prominent role? They still can be. My son learned them and has always played for very top programs in both hs and select ball. He doesn't have seemed to suffer.

You did not hit an exposed nerve, you just make no sense. I have no idea why one would come on a BASEBALL website and preach against hs sports playing a major role. Go to a Texas town and try to have this conversation and they will send you packing. It is about community, pride, excellence, etc. Can't play without grades. Just that simple. Being a good student and playing competitive sports go hand in hand and this site preaches having good grades and maximizing your ability to get college dollars in that way.

I just don't get your point. You are angry about the obsession to win? It continues after hs and into life and business. Why deny that it is human nature and why feel the need to change it. What will it accomplish? I understand that "YOU" feel there is too much emphasis on sport and winning at all cost. After all, coaches are hired to win, not lose. As long as they have scoreboards, coaches are going to try to have the biggest score. You are in the minority on this site. There is not enough sports. No middle school baseball or football teams.

You act as if we are anti-education. You are the one that wants to deemphasize sport in schools. You didn't touch a nerve. You walked into a wolf den wearing chicken blood and are confused as to why the wolves are licking their chops and growling. You are basically accusing all of us of being wrong because we do not agree with you.

My wife is a professor, educator, education consultant, and and educational software executive. I can assure that she doesn't hold your views at all.

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So what is it that bothers you about trying, at least, to keep high school focused on academics?

First of all I never said that it bothered me to be focused on education. That is a given. Kind of a DUH! YOU are the one who wants to have less focus on sports. That is what I am against. Please do not assume things that I did not say.

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And trying to get those "not college material" kids to wake up and realize that maybe they are wrong, and that they can get an education and achieve a better life? That's all I meant by my post.

It is educations job to try to get kids ready for life. Not to slam kids (who are not college material) into molds and make them feel like failures for not conforming to your view of the world. An education doesn't guarentee a better life. Many people have great lives and are very happy and don't have a college education. REALITY, not everyone goes to college and not everyone ever will. Your view is only your opinion. It is one thing to have and idealistic view on education, but in practice it needs to address the needs of everryone. Not just the college material.

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No offense was meant, but let's try to debate the role of sports in a high school education and the "winning is everything" attitude, without your falsely accusing me of wanting to do bad things to the scoreboards, of not knowing that some high school students will end up working for the solid waste department, or of being "against competitiveness and winning," whatever that means.

Why don't you try the NEA boards (if they have them). Pick a venue more suited. Or at least do a better job of getting your point across. Maybe we all misunderstood because you were not clear and a little antagonistic to anybody disagreeing.

OK,OK, I got it. I am going to go on a high school sports website and complain about high school sports being too prominent. Why is eveybody so touchy.

Gee I wonder.

Hey we all know that there are problems with education and with hs sports. Nothing is perfect.

Why do you want to set the standard for how much focus is on hs sports? Why can't you have all the options available and choose how you want you child to attack it? I don't want you making decisions for me. I want choices and don't want you to choose them for me. I am not here telling everyone else how to handle education, you are. BTW, one of the best academic schools in my area is one of the top athletic programs in the coutry. Hmm, correalation? Sports actuallly helps a lot of students stay focued.

One of the most enjoyable things for my son was his total dedication to baseball. He learned how to commit, work hard and have success. Yes, he loves to win as well. BTW, 1380 sat at the beginning of his junior year. Never took it again, had his scholly. He should not have that opportunity simply because you don't like it?

We don't agree and you assume everyone here is a jock not interested in education and that every baseball parent is only interested in winning (at least that is how it comes across. remember I am a parent). I just don't view it as a great problem to the point where we have to slap down sports. Your argument doesn't hold true for true academia (colleges and universities) as well. Almost every college and university has to have sports teams or they won't get students. It is part of the academic experienced and ingraned in our psyche.

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I believe that, within their assigned school, athletes should have to win the right to compete on the teams that play against other schools, and that the best deserve to play.

You have made it clear that you believe we ought to be assigned to a school and be given no options about transferring to a school of choice. Why are you against choice? I think I know why. You feel like you know how people should behave and you want everyone to behave the way you see. Why else would you take away choice? Don't shroud it in the " it ain't fair to the other students" argument. It doesn't hold water when in one hand you say that the best player should play and on in the other you say it is not fair to the legacy players who have paid their dues. If education is the important thing, then why do you care where one gets it? Again, take away choice. Now you take away a kids choice to get the best education possible AND play sports. Why do that ? What purpose does it serve? I mean, if it is about education, why have a sport limiting component to it. Your argument is inconsistent.

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What does that have to do with my objection to the morally, ethically, and at times legally improper ways people try to win at high school baseball (e.g., transferring, recruiting, steroids, etc.)?

That is the first time that you said that. That was not your original point. Maybe that would have been debated differently. After all, who is in favor of steroids? Nobody. It is ludicrous, and says a lot about your point of view, to lump in transferring with recruiting and steroids. Are you inferring that if I am for transferring that I am also for steroids? I know that you are not, but it is interesting to me.

Characterizing transferring as morally and ethically improper is at the crux of my problem with your post. Why do you have to judge those who do not believe as you do? Yes steroids and recruiting fit that mold. IMO (you need to use that phrase from time to time. it will make you seem less preachy. jmo) Transferring does not fit that mold. Even after the new rule, you still will be able to transfer. There will be a year sit out component. It will not be illegal, immoral, or unethical. Again, the argument doesn't make sense. It seems to me that in your arguments you or doing a lot of moralizing and acting as if it is a given. It is not. It is only your opinion. It bothers people when their point of view is deemed immoral, unethical , etc. Don't expect a big hug. I am not passing judgement on your morality for disagreeing with me.

I am sorry for being so long winded. I just wanted to be clear.

Dad, you still aren't reading carefully. I think that the unbiased know my point of view, and I hope the reasonable among them who disagree will, in a reasonable way, let me know why. But your post attacks a straw man of your making, not mine, to wit:

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In other words "Try hard in class, but not on the field"

Really, now, what the heck were you reading? I said in my post "I believe that, within their assigned school, athletes should have to win the right to compete on the teams that play against other schools, and that the best deserve to play." Nothing about not trying hard in there. I guess you are going to believe whatever you want,and not let the facts get in the way.

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Everyone knows the highest achievers on the field are at the top of the list in the class room.

You're kidding, right? I have been trying to discuss the ethics of transferring, recruiting, etc., which some do in the pitiable quest for some ephemeral sports success for a high school team, yet you keep making silly comments. Oh, I guess you were joking, since you later say:

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Do you know how many kids keep themselves academicly eligble only because of sports?? Are we better off if those kids would just simply drop out because "winning needs to be de-emphasized"?? Are we?

I think all kids should be encouraged to perform "academicly," regardless of their sport or other activity. If they have trouble maintaing a 2.0 in high school, however, I am not so sure they don't need to focus less on sports and more on school work. (since no good college program takes underachievers any more because of the new NCAA regs).

quote:

There is a place for nearly every high school player to play in college, likely receiving money to do it

You're kidding again, right? There is barely a 10% chance of PLAYING in college (including all NCAA levels, NAIA, JUCO, etc.), and that includes walk ons and players at DIII and other schools that don't give scholarships.

quote:

I question the basic intelligence of posting on an high school athletic website and demeaning the very participation of the sport in school.

I question the basic intelligence of your statemnent. My son participated in HS baseball with my encouragement. My post makes it clear that "Sports has a place, as I emphasized in my post. The only objection I have is to the insane focus on a winning high school team, which is an attitude that can result in poor academic performance in our schools, misplaced pride, the fostering of unrealistic goals, and resorting to unethical methods (transferring, recruiting, steroids, etc.)to achieve sports "scoreboard" victories." If you would, in the future, please read and try to understand my posts before falsely accusing me of "demeaning" anything. I will put my enthusiasm for sports up against anyone's, but the quest for winning at all costs in high school can get things out of balance. I believe it is time to try to restore some equilibrium.

quote:

OK, the role of sports in high schools should be emphasized to a higher extent with better and certified coaching, and higher pay for coaches (teachers) to be competitive with neighboring states, if that's ok with you.

I am all for certified coaching, and higher pay for the teacher/coaches who are such an important part of our kids' lives. It's good to know we can agree on something, and maybe this would help alleviate some of the conditions that make people want to transfer. Baseball is very important to our sons, and we all love the game, so it is difficult to stay put when a bad coach or bad program starts to eat away at the joy of playing what "is, and always will be ... the best game in the world."

From my reading, I seem to see that there are three main issues.

1)Winning employing illegal or improper tactics is wrong.

2) Transferring to change programs is at issue.

3) Some feel that an equilibrium should be restored to student athletic programs.


On point one I agree. At any age, the game should be played by the rules.

On point two, I disagree. Transferring should be allowed with no repercussion. Only in a totalitarian system are rules or laws created to the detriment of those governed.

On point three, I disagree. Seeking parity or equilibrium in sport is the pursuit of mediocracy. Competition to win at anything is the pursuit of excellence. The pursuit of equilibrium, the most that can be done has been done by the establishment of the classes based on enrollment.

Rip are you serious??

quote:

I think all kids should be encouraged to perform "academicly," regardless of their sport or other activity. If they have trouble maintaing a 2.0 in high school, however, I am not so sure they don't need to focus less on sports and more on school work.

If they can't keep a 2.0 they can't play. Period. Can't graduate even high school or be accepted into college. I would advise them to actually study less and perhaps get into a vocational program.

quote:

(since no good college program takes underachievers any more because of the new NCAA regs)

Then I guess you weren't aware a NCAA D1 college athlete could be eligble with a 400 SAT entering his freshman year, or a ACT of 37 with the acceptable Core GPA. A D2 athlete could actually play with a 2.0 core GPA and a 620 SAT, hardly Rhode Scholar material but they might accidently get a bachelor degree while staying eligble, and maturing emotionally and psychologically. Is that so bad? Is that a problem?

They would likely not have had that opportunity if we jump down the slippery slope of scaling back their high school athletic program by "de-emphasizing winning at all costs" as you put it.

I don't know anyone else so afraid of high school athletics.

Williebobo

Sorry for the thread drift. I won't encourage any more.

I am actually enjoying the discussion. Winning at all costs may have been better as a separate topic.

As an aside, the Colt World Series is being broadcast over the internet at this time. You may enjoy checking out the broadcast to determine if it would be a good addition to your program. Click the link and then the red speaker. Going to their homepage will give you further information about the ezstream broadcast system.


http://ibn.ihigh.com/

quote:

From my reading, I seem to see that there are three main issues.

1)Winning employing illegal or improper tactics is wrong.

2) Transferring to change programs is at issue.

3) Some feel that an equilibrium should be restored to student athletic programs.

I basicly agree with you. Enforce the rules in place if you want to. I would be in favor of loosened transfer rules. Generally speaking artificially restricting movement promotes mediocrity. If a coach is losing players then he should run a better program, not restrict the players from moving.

If transferring was so bad why does the NCAA, the paragon of amateur athletics permit transfers? It is hypocritical, self-serving and duplicitous to say that transferring in college is OK, but transfering in high school is wrong. It is either right or wrong. Period.

If Johnny is stuck behind Jimmy Transfer Student on the team, two should be able to play that game, in high school as well as college.

A little more loseness in transfer rules might strengthen the current species of coaching, which has mutated into something that needs improvement, IMO.

The NCAA model would be the way to go. From what I was reading a transfer student can compete at the JV level but not varsity. This makes no sense and seems to have a hidden agenda. If the transfer is ok with the school board, it should have no extra-curricular repercussions.

If the state high school sports board chooses to discipline or question anyone, it would be the coach. It would be duplicitous indeed that the sports board would not agree with the scholastic board. Shouldn't the scholastic authority over-ride the authority of the sports board? In the long run the child is afterall a student, before being an athlete in these circumstances.

quote:

Shouldn't the scholastic authority over-ride the authority of the sports board? In the long run the child is afterall a student, before being an athlete in these circumstances.

Yes the local academic authority, the principal in this case should over ride the statewide quasi-public athletic board. The child is a student first. He should be treated like a student in high school getting ready for life after high school, not some coaches personal property.

Interesting to note that my son's high school hired the 4th head baseball coach in 4 years last week. The other three all found a better situation yet the kids are stuck there. That doesn't quite pass the smell test for me.

Rip, 4 coaches in 4 years. That is chaos.

new coach article

The idea of individual rights is not ludicrous. The right to attend whatever school a student feels is in his or her best interest (not the interest of society, the other students, the team, the community or what ever other institution) will be a battle that will reach the highest court in the land some day. Self interest is the underlying motivator in a free society that creates spontaneous order in a way no central authority can. Pluralism is the way we work out the details. People who want everything to be "fair" are generally the ones ending up on the short end of the stick.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bigjd39:
The right to attend whatever school a student feels is in his or her best interest (not the interest of society, the other students, the team, the community or what ever other institution)...

Ok, I agree, however how about the student who is ASKED to come play at another school because he might "help the team get to a state championship".
Does that count? And don't say it doesn't happen, because I KNOW it does, son was asked on quite a few ocassions to "transfer". Public and private.
Is that fair? Just curious on thoughts here.

Is Florida really "BASEBALL COUNTRY"?

The questions of tramsfer manipulation or recruiting and wether Florida is "Baseball Country" would probably be better served as new topics.

They are both good areas of discussion.

This is the samething that goes on in capital hill, it's call politics!!!!!!! No matter where you go, what you do, and what you play there is always politics! Damm if you do and damm if you don't. You can't always make the coach happy and you can't always make mommy and daddy happy.
There is always something! Maybe we can bring everyone before a congretional hearing and let them make a choice for evryone.... As Rafy would say “I have never used steroids. Period.”
see ya and have a nice day!!!!

Williebobo,

I have asked this question before (from others in various threads) and have not yet received an answer. Maybe you can.

If you were drafted by the Dodgers but wanted to play for the Yankees, do you have the "freedom" or the "right" to play for whichever team you want?

I believe the answer is "no". You do not have the "right" to play for the Yankees. You do have the right to not play for the Dodgers. You have the right to sit out a year and re-enter the draft and hope the Yankees draft you next year.

And the reason Major League Baseball has instituted the rules that prevent someone from playing for any team they feel like, is to protect the game. If there is no competition, there really is no game. Without the draft (MLB's effort at creating a level playing field), a great many of the MLB teams fold, interest in the game diminishes, and the game eventually dies.

So it is (or should be) with high school ball. Without some guidelines (yes, to prevent the best players from all scurrying to the few teams they feel will win the championship), there really isn't any point to playing high school baseball.

Can't we just leave all of that recruiting stuff to the fall league teams and the AAU summer leagues? Can't we just preserve the four months a year these kids play high school ball? I just don't understand why some parents feel it is some God given right for their kid to play for a winner.

Very well put, Ace.

We live in a very wonderful society. Our lives are so great compared to many other nations that we have the luxury to be able to confuse the many rights we have with the many priviledges that we have. Playing major league baseball is not a right but a priviledge.

Under the current Major League draft rules or guide lines when a person is drafted they enter into a condition of indenture. For one year, they are the property of the team that drafted them. A contradiction of our basic liberties.

Baseball was at one time (before free agency) very similar to indenture. You were the property of the team to whom you were under contract. They would trade you, release you or maintain you at their pleasure. If you didn't like it , you could quit. This was possible because baseball was totally exempt from anti-trust laws. The owners could act in collusion to keep you out of the game. I always recall the story that Ralph Kiner tells of demanding a raise before free agency. He walks into Branch Rickey's office and lists his accomplishments to validate the reasons he should be paid more. Rickey may have been perturbed at this upstart. He said, "Ralph , you had a great year, but we finished in last place. We can finish in last place next year with you or without you." Needless to say no raise and no free agency.

Any other questions you may have in regard to the draft may be answered on this site.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/draft/2003-06-03-draft-qanda.htm

WillieBobo,

Yes, playing MLB is a priviledge...not a right. I tend to think that playing high school baseball is also a priviledge (and not a right).

I believe you (and others) are confusing the "right" to an education with the priviledge of playing sports sanctioned by the Florida High School Activities Association. Similar to the NCAA, the FHSAA has rules that must be followed if the player/coach/school wants the "priviledge" of participating.

It is absolutely imperative that the FHSAA enforce the rules regarding "recruiting" and "sports related transfers". If not, and they chose to stand by watching, with their hands folded, they will be responsible for the demise of the game (that we all love) called "high-school baseball".

Bye-bye Miss American Pie.

Nice post Ace!

TR,
Not sure really if our state is baseball country or just sports country.
Let's see, we have 2 major league teams, 3 NFL teams, two NBA teams and 1 NHL team and I don't know how many minor league teams PLUS MLB Spring Training.
Put that together with three major D1 sports programs (2 ACC, 1 SEC) and countless other fine baseball, football, basketball programs from smaller D1's.
So yes, I suppose this is baseball country.

Enforcing the rules as they exist is not a problem. As the rules presently exist, there is no punishment for a coach who recruits. The child suffers.

Why make a new rule where the child suffers no matter what the reason for the transfer?

Is it reasonable to demand that an athlete moving into a new state not be allowed to particpate in varsity baseball because he is a transfer student? It is as reasonable as not allowing the parents to buy a new home or move to a new one. It is as reasonable as not allowing a parent to move with his job.

It is a ridiculous idea merely pandering to people who want to run the lives of others. If a person does not agree with that person or small group of people, should a new rule should be made to punish them? I think not.

Toby, youse in Amer'ca now.

WillieBobo,

Changes in the old rules were desperately needed. The proposed rules most likely still need refinement. I do, however, applaud their effort at doing something...before it is too late.