Squats & Bench

Lots of views - no reply. Kerry are you there?

Well I'm not Kerry but I'll give you my $0.02. While it is true that squats CAN hurt your lower back, it is also true that curls can hurt your biceps, pullups can hurt your back, and kickbacks can hurt your triceps--if done with bad form. I know people that squat double their body weight easily and never have lower back problems. The reason for this is they use good form. As long as your son uses good form I'm sure that the weight he is using will not be enough to cause any damage to his lower back. IMO, squats are the single best exercise you can do. As far as the barbell bench press, I don't see any problem with it for pitchers. I think it's one of those old myths like "baseball players should use light weights and tons of reps." Although some people do have discomfort using the bar, and should stick to dumbbells. I switch back and forth between the two.

First, I would ask If your son's coach is a certified personal trainer (and I am not talking one of those internet certificates) but AFA or FRA.

Next, I would see what type of liability insurance he has. Most personal trainers that are serious about personal training and do it as a profession have a minimum of 1 million dollars. This covers your medical expenses when your spine pops out of your back or you blow your knee out or rupture your spleen.

My guess is he has neither of these (the certificate/training or the insurance) and I would not be caught dead doing these exercises with him.

I know personal trainers that won't even let high school kids pick up weights until they have given each kid an individual evaluation that includes stretching, range of motion, balance, and several other tests that only they are qualified to do. They often discover problems kids have with their hips or back that they were not even aware of. Your sons muscles and bones are still in development and in reality, the only person who should be recommending weight training of any kind, is someone who is vastly qualified. If he has been lifting without a trainer, its a safe bet that he is using the wrong techniques, the wrong weight and the wrong type of rest in between muscle groups and any trainer will tell you that 99% of all high school kids fall into this group. If your son hasn't been lifting regularly, throwing 250 on the bench or squat bar doesn't really sound like a fun activity for someone who has not be working those muscles.


You can read more from an interview I did here with a personal trainer
http://www.varsityedge.com/NEI/varsity.nsf/main/weight+training+and+the+high+school+athlete

Natural ,
First of all , I would see if the coach has the players "testing out" or maxing out . These terms can have the same meaning or a different meaning , depending on the coach . Personally , I look at maxing out as the amount of weight that an individual can lift one time . There are other ways to max out , such as a 3 rep max on bench press . This is when you find out the amount of weight that you can lift for 1 set of 3 reps . When I use the term "testing out" , it refers to finding your current strength levels for various exercises . This is used to fill in a persons weight-training program . This may look like this :
TEST SHEET
1. Incline Dumbbell Bench __ x 10
2. Seated Dumbbell curls __ x 12
3. Reverse Pressdowns __ x 15
4. Leg Press __ x 12
5. Leg Curls __ x 6 (double) __ x (single)
There might be 15-20 exercises on a test sheet . This just allows me to fill in a players workout , to fit it to their current strength levels . For my pitchers , I don't allow them to max out on any lifts . And before they do any Full Squats , they will go through a program to get their back used to this depth . The majority of my pitchers do a Half Squat program . I feel that Half Squats are more important and safer for pitchers to do . With this program we still take our time to make sure that the lowerback is strong . You must also make sure that your ABS are strong and that you maintain good lowerbody flexibility . In regard to the Bench Press , I have my pitchers use a bar , but I do allow them to use Dumbbells if they prefer . In my 18 years at Wichita State , I would say that about 9 out of 10 pitchers use the bar instead of dumbbells . I hope that this answers your question , but again , I would avoid doing a 1-rep max if possible .
Good Luck ,
Kerry

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=1869630

I don't understand the relevence of that article. Of course your can get injured if you try to lift too much weight. I don't think anyone is arguing that.

Seems relevant when discussing coaches and their approach to weight lifting. Bottom line is that any player has to look out for himself and not be intimidated by a coach.

As for this poor soul, I do not agree with suing the school. He could have easily said no. Too many people in the world today want to be viewed as victims. Take responsibility for your own well being and you'll not only be healthier, but happier as well.

A student is asking about possible injury by maxing out on two weight training excersizes and the article is about a kid who tried to lift too much weight and suffered 3 herniated disks. I guess the kid knew his own body better than the trainer.

Releveant, I think so!

As a follow-up... the basketball coach was not "testing out" players as Kerry suggests, but having them "max-out" in a stupid macho contest where everyone encouraged the lifter to "go for it" as they tried to lift the maximum amount in one lift. The result was many sore shoulders including pitcher on the fall ball team who could not throw on Saturday.

Natural, thanks for the follow-up. Just glad no one got hurt!

This was just a dumb exercise and honestly, I would see what I could do to make sure it doesn't occur again. The only result of this in the future will be injury.

God help us if we’ve got to the point that every coach dispensing fitness advice needs to be a PHD or will be sued when an injury occurs.

How about when the football coach has the kids run sprints and little “Johnny” pulls a muscle. Obviously the coach made them run one too many.

Come on people, let’s stop the nonsense and apply some common sense.

SBK, does your common sense include having kids bench press and squat as much weight as possible for absolutely no reason or benefit at all? That isn't "fitness advice", that is just plain stupid.

Running (sprints or otherwise) is a basic athletic movement that all athletes do throughout the course of athletic competition, but even in that there is a limit to how many sprints someone should or can run before they risk fatique or injury. An olympic sprinter doesn't take 6 months off and then fly to the olympics to run the 100 meter dash, they train gradually, working on more sprints and going a litte faster each time.

Of course injuries occur naturally to athletes, a goal of a coach or anyone for that matter, is to limit them to the best of their ability.

Doing one rep of squats or bench is neither going to limit injury or strenghen the body, and the only result of these exercises will be injury at worst.

I suppose you are for hiring teachers who have no formal training or certification to teach math, science, and english as well?? If the coach doesn't need to know anything bout weight training, why should the math teacher know anything about Geometry?

Common sense tells me that opening up, condoning or encouraging lawsuits in sports is opening the proverbial Pandora’s box.

Two things would certainly happen. The first is coaches both paid and volunteer would get out in droves. The second is costs for liability insurance would be prohibitive driving up costs of participation.

You mention trainers carry insurance for athletes whose “spine pops out of your back or you blow your knee out or rupture your spleen”. I thought that was what personal health insurance was for? If it automatically goes towards the trainers insurance, it would imply gross negligence and then the trainer could also be liable for damages such as disability, pain and suffering and punitive.

Could you imagine some of the problems?

Who needs to be certified? Who gives out this certification? How specialized must be the certification? What are the costs? Can a coach who coaches hitting give pitching instruction without being certified? What happens if a kid hurts his arm playing long toss but some expert witness says long toss is dangerous? Substitute a whole host of similar examples. Should a little league coach be sued because a kid got hurt running bases in practice on a wet field because some expert witness said running on a wet field is dangerous? Shouldn’t the track coach be certified in shot put because he may be telling his kids to do something that some 'expert" could say is wrong? How about high jump, long jump, etc? Has anyone ever held a practice but did not allow time for a formal stretching period? If someone gets hurt that practice, do they have a case? What happens if the stretching routine is not as complete as some certified "experts" deem adequate?

As far as maxing out in weights, I’m afraid of commenting for fear of being sued but here goes. Most high schools I am familiar with have weight records. Should anyone who thinks they may have hurt themselves through the years going for the school record, sue the school district, athletic department and coaches? Should we ban these types of contests? How about the basketball coach having players jump as high as they can in vertical jumping? We better keep the lawyers out of the wrestling room or that sport will get shut down too.

There are many different theories in coaching and training athletes. For example you say, “Doing one rep of squats or bench is neither going to limit injury or strengthen the body, and the only result of these exercises will be injury at worst”. I could probably find an expert witness to find fault with your statement. Nobody has the corner on all the good ideas.

My point is there a lot of gray area; keep the attorneys away from sports as much as possible.

if i remember correctly, most coaches, or a large percentage of them, are PE majors. which means they took anatomy, physiology, kinesiology, etc. of course they are not certified trainers. also most coaches want their kids lifting to avoid injury in the future. but i guess what we should do is for each person to hire their own personal trainer, then hire their own personal coach or instructor, and then try to play a team sport. come on guys get in the real world. "check out the guys liablilty insurance" this is why the world is going down the crapper.

YOu wanna hear the story about a softball player who lost her scholarship because her high school coach taught her an illegal pitching technique?

SBK, trainers are liable for injuries and lawsuits all the time, I know a few (not personally) who have put people out of work for months and forced them to have surgery for improper lifting techniques with too much weight. Its no different than doctors doing something wrong, as they have insurance as well.

The things you mention, running, jumping, pitching, throwing are more a part of the game. Lifting heavy weight for no specific reason, just makes no sense for anyone.

hey, in reply to tha thing abou the lifting test, i'd say it isn't as rediculous as all you guys are saying, being a football and baseball player, i know that the 1 rep max is important in sports. The coach was most likely trying to find out who has been working on strength training in the offseason. Ideally, he should test them at reps with a set weight (185, 225). And about the thing with the olympic runners...if you didn't notice during the olympics, most of those guys do a 1 rep max of up to 400 pounds.

Exactly the point --- baseball players have no business doing "olympic lifts" - i.e. military press, max squats etc. Baseball players need to stay flexible and avoid bulking up. Strong yes, bulk no. As Kerry said earlier in this thread, players should "test" out, not "max" out.

I agree 110% about keeping the lawyers out. All the story illustrates is the need for athletes to take responsibility for their own good health and not blindly turn themselves over to a coach in the weight room who may or may not know what he is talking about. At most high schools in Texas it is a football coach who calls the shots in the weight room and many know very little about training baseball players properly.

I wasn't aware that lifting and flexibility were mutually exclusive. That is an old baseball myth that has no place in the 3rd millenium. I have gotten immeasurably more flexible since I started lifting. If you use a full ROM and stretch, you will not lose flexibility. And btw, military press and squats are not olympic lifts. Olympic lifts are the snatch and the clean and jerk.

Comparing an olympic weight lifter who trains every day of his life with weights and trained professionals, to a high school junior is a really good comparison....

Natural, did any kids do warmup sets or did the coach go through any warmup sets or stretching before your olympic lift off??

Many of you may or may not have heard of Dr. Jobe (spelling ???). He is the orthopedic guy for the LA Dodgers who has done extensive research on arms and the effects weights have on them. Straight bar bench press and military presses are NOT good for pitchers and are not really good for any throwing athlete. His findings were that the pressure the weight puts on the shoulder girdle at the point where the elbows begin to pass the shoulder on the way down causes the shoulder to abnormally stretch creating an elongated shoulder muscle or loose shoulder. This is not good for pitchers because you want the shoulder capsule to be tight, yet strong, so that at the point of extension the muscles don't stretch too far and are able to get back to the original shape as quickly as possible. The illustration used was that of a rubber band. The more you stretch it, the less it returns back to its original shape and becomes weak. The best thing for pitchers to use to substitute the bench are dumbbell bench presses where the elbows never go below the shoulders. This movement obviously needs to be monitored by a spotter and the player may need initial help to feel where the arms need to stop before pushing the weight back up. I had my college pitchers doing this exercise for years after learning this and have not heard one complaint that they felt they were being worked out less than if they were doing the actual bench press.

There is no need for 1 rep maximums period. Any coach who thinks that athletes need to do 1 rep maximums are negligent! We are training athletes not weight lifters or olympic lifters. You can tell if an athlete is stonger by looking at his workout card. Example: day 1 bench press 150 for 10 reps, day 120 bench press 185 for 10 reps. Is he or she stronger? Strength training is for injury prevention, performance improvement is almost a byproduct.If you hurt an athlete in the weight room you have defeated your primary goal. These are other peoples kids treat them with respect.

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Originally posted by Natural:
Exactly the point --- baseball players have no business doing "olympic lifts" - i.e. military press, max squats etc. Baseball players need to stay flexible and avoid bulking up. Strong yes, bulk no. As Kerry said earlier in this thread, players should "test" out, not "max" out.

I agree 110% about keeping the lawyers out. All the story illustrates is the need for athletes to take responsibility for their own good health and not blindly turn themselves over to a coach in the weight room who may or may not know what he is talking about. At most high schools in Texas it is a football coach who calls the shots in the weight room and many know very little about training baseball players properly.

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Military press and squat olympic lifts? Are you trying to shoot yourself in the foot? Olympic lifts are fast, explosive lifts that should be in a baseball lifting program. Also, why is this so needless? I don't understand why you're such a jerk about it.

Your coach is probably using a program that works on percentages of a max. You calculate your max deadlift, then work at 75% of that for a set number of reps, then a set number at 85%, and so on. Then, after 2-3 months of training, you test your max again and see how much it has improved.

Anything stupid about that? No. It's a method of strength-training.

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Originally posted by LoneLobo:
I don't understand why you're such a jerk about it.

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Young man: these boards are for grown up debate and informational discussion... not name calling.

There are charts that estimate that if you do a certain weight X times, this = your max. These charts keep kids from doing max weight. I have also heard others do squats & bench last in their workouts when they can't lift as much, but need to be properly spotted. Our school also used to do box squats (BFS) where my son who was 130lbs had over 400lbs on the bar. They now do front squats in their core lifting & can not carry nearly that much weights. I think squats are OK, but must have proper technic. Back straight & feet at the proper width so the knees stay directly over your toes keeping inside-outside stress off the knees. Very few have this though. My 2ct. for what it's worth.

All of you guys keep talking about baseball players not needing to bulk up and that they need to stay thin and flexible. What would you say to guys like Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, or Dave Ortiz. These guys are as big or bigger than many football players. I was just why getting bigger is good for the best players in the world and not good for kids in high school?

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Originally posted by GoGoGopher:
There are charts that estimate that if you do a certain weight X times, this = your max. These charts keep kids from doing max weight. I have also heard others do squats & bench last in their workouts when they can't lift as much, but need to be properly spotted. Our school also used to do box squats (BFS) where my son who was 130lbs had over 400lbs on the bar. They now do front squats in their core lifting & can not carry nearly that much weights. I think squats are OK, but must have proper technic. Back straight & feet at the proper width so the knees stay directly over your toes keeping inside-outside stress off the knees. Very few have this though. My 2ct. for what it's worth.

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A 130 lb kid squatting 400 lbs is either about to murder himself with some enormous technique breakdown, or he's coming off the olympic team.

Front squatting works different muscles than a back squat, and as a BTW, box squats DO teach proper technique and are an excellent lift.

Natural- bench presses with the bar should be avoided, becasue they can cause muscle inpingement, which CAN be damaging to a pitchers future. Free weights are a better alternative, and do simulate a more natural movement.