SS versus 2B

I have heard that if you are over 6' you go to short, under 6' 2nd base.

The angles that a 2B needs to handle to make the throw to 1, especially on a slow roller require excellent skill sets.

thanks floridafan! what if a team is blessed with two stud 2Bs? Do you move the taller one to SS or 3B?

I thought you already had a stud 3rd Baseman!

Well, on 3B there are 3 guys fighting it out but there are also two MIF that are much better fielders than those guys... hitting for all 5 guys is pretty good. Do you put the MIF guys at 3B or go with slightly bigger/clumsier guys hoping that down the line their hitting will improve more than the MIF guy's hitting? Personally, I like a good fielder at 3B who can play even with the bag (on most batters) and make some plays over there.

If all these "extra" players can hit then you guys are stacked!

The defining difference between a shortstop and a second baseman is the arm strength to make the deep throw from the shortstop hole.

What is this "I have heard" stuff?

Sorry, just reguritating some things told to me by pro scouts. I am sure that there are varying views. Arm strength would be one. I was viewing the arm strength as equal.

quote:

Have some questions regarding SS versus 2B. Assuming players all have good arms, what makes a player a SS or 2B? It seems that SS is regarded as the better fielder - yet it is also commented on that 2B has even more territory to cover... So does it come down to just arm strength? What if a player is playing 2B and has a strong arm? Should he make a move to SS to further his chances to play at the next level? Is there a big difference from playing the left side of the field versus the right side? Sorry for all the questions but I am trying to really understand the difference between these two positions and how players are "seen" or "projected" regarding the two MIF positions. I have seen some excellent 2B players perceived as inferior to avergage SS players - if this is true should 2B try to move to SS?

The logic of it is this (as I see it)-

Most grounders are hit to the short-stop area. The short-stop in a game will usually be involved in more plays than anyone else which includes fielding, catching, and throwing. As such and assuming all else such as arm strength, speed and height are all even, the most talented player fielding wise should play short-stop. But, because all players are not created equal and there is no such thing as all else being equal, the best fielder at fielding ground balls on a team should play short assuming he also has a strong arm and decent speed to get to hit balls.

Second base in my opinion is the hardest position to fill on a team, he needs to have extremely quick footwork, throw from awkward angles on the field quickly, have a quick catch and release trigger on the arm and have excellent running speed. All this combined makes for a very hard to fill position. Often times the worst arm will end up filling in at second because generally speaking they make the least distance throw on a team besides first base. At the pre-hs and hs levels you can almost always guess who has the weakest arms on teams- they are almost always playing second base. The part I find strangely non-coincedental is that the same weak armed kids playing second are also some of the worst fielding kids on the team- go figure!

Most infield plays in a game are on ground balls and throwing runners out at first. Strategy wise, a second baseman has not only greater ground to cover, but he also must try to knock down everything hit remotely in his area because he has the greatest chance of knocking a ball hit the farthest from home plate and still be able to get up and throw out the runner at first base. Because of this, second base is ideally suited to someone smaller because of their advantage to accelerate from a standstill quicker and knock down balls further away from them. Taller players usually weigh more and as such do not accelerate from a stop as quickly. Not only that, short stop and third are not required to chase groundballs hit into the outfield areas behind them, dive at them and come up firing to first base- they would seldom get anyone out!

Some things I have learned coaching the pre-hs level at short and second-

1.Give the infielders outfield sized gloves, they don't need smaller gloves to turn double plays (retriving the ball quicker from smaller mit) as much as they need more leather to knock down balls close to them and get the out at first or second. (the error to double play ratio is overwhelmingly in favor on the error side due to small mits and not getting "enough glove" on a ball!)

2.Put the two best fielders on a team at short and then at second in that order talent wise.

3.Have both short and second play deeper than usual realizing that they have a greater fielding percentage when they have a greater coverage area on balls hit in their area and greater preparation time to adjust

Of coarse this changes as players reach varsity level in HS, but still just some things I have noticed over the years.

Other than glove size what would you change about your expanation at the varsity or collegiate level?

BB Dad 2007

Where are you located?

We are now selecting players for the SSK team for entry to the USA Labor Day tournament and should you desire to have the players journey to SSU in Rohert Park, California.

Walter White, SSU coach is one of the best infield instructors in America and he could answer you questions in a "work out".

In addition, GWS is also assisting the Tampa Bay "Rays"selecting players for their California tryouts.

Please complete a player profile on our web site <www.goodwillseries.org>

Not all shortstops can play 2b and not all 2b can play SS. When we travel to Australia, we take in four shortstops and rotate the players. A good SS demands the ball to be hit to himself.

Pat Kelley, former NY Yankee shortstop now Mariners scout for Australia, last year told our infielders in a clinic "field the ball with your left ear"

Bob Williams

quote:

Other than glove size what would you change about your expanation at the varsity or collegiate level?

Besides glove size, player depth at second and short. Too often I have seen hit balls overcome infielders because of their lack of adjusting. Most plays at second and first at the pre-varsity level are not very close. Coaches tell kids to play in too far in fear that their arm is not strong enough to throw runners out from a deeper position or that slower hit balls will not be routine outs. Infielders that play in must have quicker reactions, be faster, and be fearless on hard hit balls right at them. All three of those traits are learned, but seldom are they mastered before varsity hs play. Therefore, a learning player should play deeper than usual. Most pre-varsity kids who bat on the big field don't run fast enough to make it a close play at first.

Bob W. - I'll send you a PM later.

GingerBread, thanks for the post - some good info there. In addition to what you listed there is also the job of holding runners on 2nd and covering 2nd on steals. Some coaches will have the 2B cover the bag with right handed batters at the plate. Worst case scenario is runners on 1B and 2B with a right handed batter up and 1B is trying to hold the runner - 2B has to run to 2nd to hold the runner then run back to cover the whole right side as the pitch is thrown. Then he gets a grounder hit in back of him as he is running or way over by 1B...

Another observation/comment I have is regarding "laying out". I have often seen the kids that "lay out" be put at the SS spot. Sure it looks good and the top SS players will lay out, then get up and fire a laser to 1B for the out. But more often, I see kids lay out at SS but not make the play. Not every kid is built to lay out and some work hard to get behind the ball and make the play - but laying out is flashy and the flashy kids tend to be put at SS.

Someone recently commented to me they like to put the backup 2B to right field - and have him try and thrown guys out at 1B !

BBDAd 2007

When you call, we will discuss the story of Pat Kelley, Richie Henderson and Tony LaRusso.

As you have said "lay out" means very little.
He can never throw out a 4.1 runner home to 1st base.

We have the 4 beautiful SSK 11" infielder gloves made only for the Japan players for you to evaluate.

Our American team SS need to be superior to all our infielders.

1. Olympic speed in the first 10 yards.
2. Accurate, strong arm.
3. Soft hands, agile like a dancer.
4. "Ability to read the bat".
5. Never, never never place a pitcher at SS...
6. Ability to field the majority of ground balls
on the 1st or 2nd hop and always with the "left ear". [Mark Belanger and Pat Kelly]
6. Our best SS were Nomar and Jimmy Rollins.
Why, they made all the plays w/o "flash".

Shortstops or 2b are either quicker to their "right" or to their "left". This is where the 2b instructs the 1b to play wider. Most HS 1b are fixed every pitch to the same position [close to the bag].

As Joe Morgan said; "I can discuss infield play for 10 minutes or 10 hours".
You now have the 10 minute discussion.

Thank you;

Bob

PS: my son Rob was a SS for 6 years in Legion and High School and a 3b, 2b, SS and 1b in college.
In a short season pro league he became a catcher.

Hey Bob,

Could you elaborate on these two:

quote:

5. Never, never never place a pitcher at SS...
6. Ability to field the majority of ground balls
on the 1st or 2nd hop and always with the "left ear". [Mark Belanger and Pat Kelly]

Very interested in getting more details on these. Thanks in advance for your knowledge and wisdom!

bbdad2007;

Where do you live?

When a SS pitches, we need to place a second level shortstop resulting in several mental or physical mistakes. Now the pitcher who should throw 14 pitches per inning to win has to pitch 20-30 pitches each inning. Second and more important the arm angle for the SS throws is side arm to the 2b bag and often 3/4 to 1b. This can result in arm strain over 50-60 games.

Play the pitcher at 3b, 1b or LF.

Field with the left ear keeps the infielder centered as he charges the ball. Balance, balance and balance is the rule for fielding, throwing and hitting.
If you move forward to field on the 1st of 2nd hop you will catch the ball chest high for a "on balance" throw.

Infielders should know their own pitcher [sinker ball of riser]; the speed of all runners; the quickness of the 3B and 2B and the swing of the hitter [up or down] and the situation.

Bob
707-538-0777

BOB


Why do you want to play a pitcher at third or in the outfield he has pitched? I am not comfortable with that

As for SS vs 2B--- I like all the same attributes at both positions except allowing the arm to be a bit less strong at second base

Hey Bob,

Sent you a PM with more personal info. Son's coaches would always have the players charge ball to get the " short hop" versus the "long hop" - tough plays are those "inbetweeners". You want'em by your chest but grounders don't always work that way - unless you get a "charity hop".

To center your body wouldn't you field with your nose then field through the ball with your hands pushing straight out in front of you? Or are you saying left ear because that would be your glove hand and you field it to the side?

TR:

After a pitcher has pitched, he should not play a position. If he is a good hitter, then place him as a DH. this way he can stay in the game as a DH.

If he rotates to 1B or LF there should be no long throws. Send the SS deeper to LF for the short throw from the pitcher now LF. Earl Weaver did this with Cal Ripen. All Orioles OF was "short armed".

PS: Assuming you are a Red Sox supporter, Robert has a special SSK Ortiz bat. 34.5 and 33 oz.

Bob

BOB


That bat is too heavy for me and in addition I hit from the rightside


As for the pitcher playing a position after ptiching it doesn't happen with us--in fact I think at times we carry too many arms but better the kids go home being able to comb their hair---rather have a kid ***** at me that he didnt get enough innings than too many

You field the ball "with your left ear" to keep it over your left/center of your body when you breakdown to field it. Keep the ball on your left ear at approach, plant your right foot, spread with your left foot and the ball should be near your left chest as you field it. This also creates positive momentum to 1B to help your throw.

If more IF's would do a better job with their footwork, their arm grades would increase as well.

I do not know all the technical things as you are talking about. My son was always a 2nd basemen who started to play SS in the highschool and some this year in college. People think that they are so interchangeble, but my son thinks they are so different.
He likes them both, either position you have to have good range, good footwork and ss a stronger arm. but when you get to college even at 2nd you need a decent arm, as you will throw guys out running home when you cutting ball off from OF>
The further you go up the ladder, no positon is a weak position. The ball gets hit everywhere. You can not hide a players defense and weak arm .
My son has worked hard to become a better ss, he has played some in Junior college, but second and his bat will probably be where he plays at the next level. they say MI are a dime a dozen, but not ones that can hit.

I would put the quicker man at short stop and the other guy at second. The short stop needs to move fast and be able to get the ball to first while the second base man has time to get the ball to first.

I think 2B and RF are the two most under-rated positions in youth baseball. Many think to hide a player that needs more instruction in both places and that tendency becomes a habit.  When the inevitable happens, the coach will often look at it as unavoidable.

Or everybody assumes the 2B should have made the play because he was so close to 1B.  Never mind no one ever taught him how.

Eventually the weakness shows itself as the competition and speed of the game increase.

The Kid has been playing 2B for 8 years as his primary and we still learn something new every practice.

He moved to 3B last spring and had no problems and also played some SS. In a perfect world, I would work them all at SS for two years and then spread them around like butter.

From what scouts tell me, resist the move to 2b and play SS as long as you can. There is a perceived notion that there must be a reason you’re not playing shortstop. Usually it’s either arm strength or foot speed. On most teams the best athlete on the team plays SS or CF. That is why so many HS SS's get moved to CF in college. If you’re a coach of a summer team and you have two equals’ players in the middle, rotate them every game. In 2005 I had 7 SS's on my summer select team. They all got time at short. 5 of them got drafted and the two others are playing in college. By learning other positions, it exposed them to other skill sets that made them better middies.

There's more pressure at the SS position to field the ball cleanly and get the throw off quickly. 2B can sit back more or even bobble the ball and still get the BR on more plays.

Also I haven't seen at the HS level more balls hit to the SS. Most RH hitters are pitched away and lots of ball go to the 2B side.

We are in a different situation in some ways as we requested (prior to signing) that my guy be given a shot at 2B from his primary position of 3rd so he would be up the middle and have more opportunity to show range and hands as well as quickness in turning DP's.

He has played short in college and over the summer, but his opportunity on this team was 3rd or 2nd.

Since he will also pitch on occasion, scouts will see his arm strength as he (so far this fall) is 89-91 off the mound.

The shortstop must be quicker and have a stronger arm, however the second basemen are usually more agile, coordinated and are practically contortionists with all the twisting they do. The shortstop is the best overall ATHLETE on the field, not necessarily the best player. The shortstop is also the leader on the field, must have strong mental abilities as well as leadership skills; I would rather want an arrogant ***** at short rather than a nice guy because confidence plays a big role here.

The biggest difference between the shortstop and the second baseman is the arm strength, and between the SS and 3B is body type and offensive abilities.

Ideal height - 2B - 5'6" - 5'11"
Ideal Height - SS - 5'8" - 6'2"
Ideal Height - 3B/1B - 6' - 6'4"