Starter as D1 Freshman?

One way to get an idea of the likelihood is to look at the current upper classmen at a school, and pull up their statistics on line, which can be done at almost every school, and see how much action they saw as a freshman. Freshmen do start at all levels, but it's the exception rather than the norm, and there are lots more freshman sitting than there are starting. This kind of gets back to that buzz phrase recruiters often use, "he'll make an immediate impact as a freshman", which most recruits hear as "I've got a good chance to start". At the two schools I know best, a D-2 and D-3, over the past 4 years, perhaps 4 freshmen have started in first games in 8 total seasons.

Pitchers are a little different story. While often young pitchers are red-shirted, freshmen pitchers that show promise will get a shot early, not in starting rotation but they can see some decent mound time in relief. Two absolute truisms: (1) Everybody is always looking for pitching,and (2) if you show you can hit, they'll find a spot for you.

Thanks for the quick response, Hokieone!

Appreciate the assistance. I'll look at some stat pages and rosters as you suggest.

My kid's only a pitcher as his 4th option, so a position spot is what he'll compete for. And, I'll be sure to tell him to hit better!!

Thanks again!

Falcon,

During my son's freshman year, in the Big 12 conference, there were about six freshman, that were regular starters.

While many are skeptical and cynical of coaches opinions, the person most likely to be able to give the player the best information is the potential college coach. He is the one person with the most information. He has likely seen the potential player and knows when and how the player will eventually fit in with the team. Otherwise, he would have no interest in signing the player.

Similar to high school coaches that won't put underclassmen on the varsity roster if they can't contribute at that level, college coaches are trying to fill a roster with players that can contribute immediately or in the near term.

I have seen the transition of high school ballplayers to the D1 level. The freshman year is a difficult transition period. Part of the skill that I have seen in college coaches is the ability to determine players that can make that transition the majority of the time. They are skillful at working players into the game at appropriate times where the player can have an opportunity to be successful and build confidence.

College coaches try to build teams in a constanly changing environment of grade eligibility, injuries, personalities, and the draft.

So, it is much more complicated than just whether a player will start or not.

The coach will probably explain that there are upper classmen ahead and how he expects the draft to impact them, current year freshman that are expected to develop and fill roles.

The coach will give the incoming freshman an idea of the players that he will be competing against for a starting spot. Maybe a supporting role as a freshman, then become a starter as a soph.

The coach would love to be able to predict whether an incoming freshman will start or not.

But, in reality, he can't predict with 100% certainty whether the freshman player will even show up on campus and compete for a spot.

My guess is that the incoming freshman will likely hear that there is an upperclassman at his position now. If he can outplay that uppercalssmen, he will start.

And, the coach will say, "Here's the opportunity". "What you do with it is up to you"

And, my observation is that those most obsessed with starting as a freshman, and don't, are likely to fail.

Winning a starting position at a major D1 is likely a two season process.

If your incoming freshman is a pitcher, the above observations do not apply.

Very helpful! Thanks FormerO!

The major D1's are probably out of his reach, but perhaps mid-level D1's and good D2's/D3's would be interested. So, your and Hokie's guidance is very useful re. what to expect about potential playing time.

Many thanks!

[What percentage of incoming freshman start or get playing time at D1? Is this largely determined in the Fall workouts preceding the season, or do coaches evaluate freshmen in the Spring?]

I would say the coaches are evaluating the players every time they see the player.

At my son's University, the coaches watch the fall practices, then the six fall ball games. I in the late fall/early winter, they watch the players during the four on ones. After winter break, they watch them during the four on ones until season’s practices start. And then again once practices start they watch them.

One thing I would emphasized to any freshman is to not loose their edge over the Holiday break. Keep up with your conditioning, throwing and hitting. The first couple of weeks after the break will be fast and furious and they don't want to be trying to catch back up.

My son will be going to a D1 next year-Coach was very honest about the possibiity of not seeing alot of playing time as a freshman. The talk with Coach was exactly how FormerObserver described it and my son is ok with that. He had some choices at smaller schools where he probably would have played sooner but this was the school and program he wanted. Doesn't mean he's not going to give it his all and try though. Dad's the one who's having a hard time being realistic and gets upset when he hears son say there's a real possibility he won't see much playing time next year. Says he's being negative, I think he's just being realistic.

ORmom - I can certainly understand your husband's attitude (was similar to mine) but after having been through the freshman season, I think your son has a great attitude. I think your husband may believe he might not have the appropriate "Eye of the Tiger" with that attitude but I think your son will be just fine.

In baseball, as long as he is giving it 100% and that is where he wants to be then I think he is setting himself up for success. By letting that other baggage go about whether he starts or not will only help him mentally as a player imho. This was not apparent to me last year either but after being suitably trained by the experience, I think it is best not to worry about those type of things

FO - great post as usual!

good advice from F0 (Former Observer). Read it carefully, I think he hit on all points.

First year as a frosh, son got in significant innings as a pitcher and some of his teammates were starters at their position, but there was a need for it, the draft left some holes. The transition for freshman is the hardest, no matter how big or small the program is.

I agree with FO, those that are obsessed with playing asap and don't, usually fail.

A question a little along these lines.

How many games or innings (if any) can a true freshman play and still be eligible for redshirt.

Thanks

Yours is a question that's on every player and parent's mind as they enter college; it's best approached at the recruiting stage, but it will most probably be answered as already described ---- essentially 'you'll have an opportunity to earn a spot'. Well, if the potential wasn't there, they wouldn't be recruiting you (or any other player) to begin with.

Early PT discussions by your son to the coach are touchy, though a private conversation with coach after the Fall workouts would be appropriate. By that time, your son would have an idea as to where he fits.

But that doesn't help a choice before he enters. And, before he enters, how would the coach know? How will the other Freshmen stack up? Who will continue academic eligibility? Who will be injured?

One way to take an educated guess, is to check out the roster, as has already been suggested ---- not only to see if freshman have had significant PT in the past, but to check out the competition. Look at the players currently at your son's position. If BA and Fielding Percentage are solid, chances are the freshman has bench time in his future; if there are holes in the incumbent's game, the freshman can step up. Stats don't tell the whole story, go to games and study that competition.

Also remember that freshman getting a lot of PT is a double-edged sword. Is the conference so weak that players right out of hs can contribute? Why hasn't the coach developed the current players to the point where they would outplay an incoming freshman? No player good enough to be recruited wants to sit, but if one of his goals is improving his game, he'll want evidence that the coaching staff is capable of assisting that goal.

Thanks Orlando,

When my son was being recruited by the school he did sign with he was told that they felt he had a "chance" to contribute right away. I do know that this line is used by most schools on most recruits to get them to come to their school. The coach also said that "if" redshirted, it was not a bad thing, it was actually a good thing. Depending on how he does his first Fall and early season will determine the direction my son goes. So my question is, how much can he play (game or innings) before he can no longer redshirt?

It is impossible to count on playing time in your freshman year. Many have stated why. Every year you have to compete with new fresfmen, college and JC transfers. I am seeing guys who had a lot of starts being displaced by transfers even in their JR years. You can't count on anything in college ball. Every year everyone has a shot for playing time. Seniors and JRs have a better chance but even they have to watch their backs. A freshman has to respect and expect limited playing time regardless of how well they do in fall etc. Most coaches do start some freshmen players but many do not. I have found many northern schools tend to start their freshmen more than others. Not sure why but most of my son's old teammates got significant innings.

Thanks Bobblehead,

I must not being asking it right!

How many innings can a freshman play before he can no longer legally be redshirted?

I know it is a different sport, but I was watching Arizona play Houston in basketball the other night and the Wildcats had a freshman playing about half the game. The announcer made the comment that "if he continues to play like this, I do not think Lute will redshirt him".

I am not sure it is innings, but games, I THINK it is 3 by a certain date? The coaches have some time before the playing roster is handed over to the NCAA. Not sure if rules for medical redshirt are different.

Anyone know for sure.

A guestion about redshirting should be directed to the NCAA. I believe it depends on whether it is a medical RS or not. Call the NCAA and they will be happy to explain. The regulations are also on their site but I prefer talking to them.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
A guestion about redshirting should be directed to the NCAA. I believe it depends on whether it is a medical RS or not. Call the NCAA and they will be happy to explain. The regulations are also on their site but I prefer talking to them.

Wow Bobblehead, you make it sound serious!

I just asked a simple question about an incoming freshman and redshirt rules!!

It may be a simple question, but the repercussions of bad info might not be ---- hence the good advice to go to the NCAA or (more easily) to your college coach. You wouldn't want to count on information, find it erroneous, make assumptions and then say "but that's what somebody said on a message board!"

I googled (man, I love google) some keywords, and came up with a reference in a Tulane 2006 recap article that referred to a player who "played 5 games as a redshirted freshman".

The NCAA is very approachable. I always asked questions. Doesn't have to be a big deal. They are always very friendly and helpfull. You may get several answers here and only one will be right.

quote:

I googled (man, I love google)

I'm a creature of habit Orlando and just recently graduated from Yahoo to Google. What a difference.

Thanks for all the input.

Playing time in college is much different than high school. College baseball is a business, that schools put a lot of money into the program and wants to win. College coaches much more than high school coaches are more likely to put in the best players who will produce a win vs just upper classman.

The higher impact the freshman, the more likely the player will have playing time. Looking at previous stats is one important part of the equation, but you also need to know what type of impact player he was when coming in. Obviously, it also depends on the school's need for the player's position, that is why it is important to do your homework as the team's needs.

Position Players: If the school has a hole to fill and no returning players have alot of playing time the competition will probably be wide open. If the freshman has a upperclassmen that has received playing time in front of him he will probably have to wait for the upperclassmen to play himself out of the position. All you can do is stay positive and take advantage of every situation to show your skills and ability.

.
One of my favorite topics….I’m a really good high school player, will I start at DI?...

This what I tell DI headed seniors…at least those who are open to reality…

Enjoy your moment, enjoy all the attention and the projections, enjoy your production, clip those articles,...project yourself mentally into that DI starting role….

For a short time…

Then you better start getting real ...Welcome to the world of collegiate baseball!....The majority of the players that you are going to compete with, and against, are just like you are..

Only now they are...

1-3 years more physically, mentally and emotionally more mature than you are.
1-3 years worth of serious supervised weight training bigger than you are.
1-3 years of college ball more experienced than you are.
1-3 years more connected to what the coaching staff wants than you are.
1-3 years worth of collegiate summer ball more experienced than you are.
1-3 years better at balancing academics, baseball and life than you are.
1-3 years mentally tougher than you are.
1-3 years more technically proficient than you are.
1-3 years more aware than you are that time is running out for them.
1-3 years more connected to their teamates than you are

AND you can be assured of some competition that you did not expect...

- guys switch positions to yours,
- players at your position suddenly find themselves
- unexpected JC guys come in at your position,
- high quality players at your position transfer in,
- guys that were projected to vacate your position when you signed?...well sorry kid turns out they are staying...

Beyond that,….I figure that there are moments of truth in EVERY baseball players career...some players start from youth ball having to overcome those moments...others are so talented that they pretty well skirt them...and I tend to think that he further along you see your first REAL moment of truth the more shocking it is....I think because of the age, experience and talent factor, many talented freshman see their first REAL moment of truth when they hit the collegiate field...

It is then that we really begin to separate many players into those who can adapt and grow, not just access physical genetic talent. I think at that point you begin to access a whole new set of characteristics that separate players and they may not even know they possess.

If I were you?...I'd keep those celebrations and projections in context and get started tomorrow working harder than you ever have before...for the next 8 months...and then expect to work harder than that when you get started with the team.

Collegiate baseball is both one of the greatest experiences you will ever have AND one of the most difficult. I suggest you get to work now...today…earning that spot...rather than thinking about it.

I Worked with a girl once who won 3 NCAA national championships. I learned a great deal from her about dedication and work ethic. She was from Alabama. She said that she loved getting up early to work on her game because she knew that she was beating the west coast players with her early start. She said she loved working out late because she knew that she was keeping up with the west coast players.

Her titles were earned not "figured out"..

44

O44 ,Concise and to the point.
I just saw a guy leave his college. He started 45 of the 48 games last year and was not sure he would be getting similat starts of innings in his JR year. I understood a JC transfer was looking strong at his position.

All the above posts are excellent. Look at the roster and see who is playing in your son's position now. You say that P is option 4. There are two schools of thought in this, so I hope I am clear.

School 1-the more positions you play, the more of a chance you have to get playing time. I don't like this one. It usually means you aren't good enough at one spot to be considered to play that position. I'll take some heat for that statement I'm sure.

School 2-You play 1 position and play it well enough to start. I am in this school. This is where you have to be aware of who's ahead of your son. If he's a SS and their SS is a sophomore who hit .290, your kid is not playing SS unless he is a true stud. The returner will get the benefit of the doubt.

My son was very lucky. While in HS, the college coaches told him if he signs with them, 2B is his spot to lose as a freshman. They stopped recruiting the position after they signed him. Now, he did lose 2B about 10 games into the season when he took over at SS and they moved a sophomore to 2B. He was the only player on the roster to start every game last season, so knock on wood he stayed healthy.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
O44 ,Concise and to the point.
I just saw a guy leave his college. He started 45 of the 48 games last year and was not sure he would be getting similat starts of innings in his JR year. I understood a JC transfer was looking strong at his position.

I agree, good points OB.

those involved in the discussion, let me know what you think of my statment below.

If a coach tells a new player (even a returning player) in the fall that he has aquired a position for the spring, some players might tend to take the easy road, stop workouts, etc. Most smart coaches, I would assume might not tell a player directly that he has "earned a spot" , maybe not even up until game day. Or maybe the just doesn't know his game plan two motnhs in advance.

Why would a player be so quick to leave unless he was told to look elsewhere?

As an example, mine is going into third season. Although having been a weekday starter, and it is an assumption he most likely will be a weekend starter this year, he has NEVER been told directly by the coach and most likely not until the time is right for him to do so.

This fall, our coaches told the team that only two spots were set. Everything else was up for grabs during the fall.

Tigerpawmom,

I tend to agree with you about coaches telling players they are set. I think they should only do that when they know the player isn't going to let up anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by Orlando:
I googled (man, I love google) some keywords, and came up with a reference in a Tulane 2006 recap article that referred to a player who "played 5 games as a redshirted freshman".

Orlando - Not to argue but I don't think that's the answer (5 games). I think what the excerpt you posted says is that the player RS as a true freshman and then in his 2nd year (now a RS Freshman) he played 5 games. I could be wrong but have seen that before.

PFB the school 1 senario is a great senario especially if you have a great bat. I see this all the time and it dosen't mean you are not good enough. They may have an upper clasman at that spot who is excellent.
We have always told players that if you are a multi position player you have a better chance of getting playing time. Many coaches love utility players especially if they can hit.

TPM,
An interesting twist last year at my son's school; the coach asked just before the break for all of the players to pick the best line-up. They each completed three different line-ups.
They picked the best defensive team, best batting order (without taking position into consideration), and pitching: four staters, one long relief, one short relief and one closer.

The players saw the results but were not able to obtain a copy. It would be interesting to see what the players think versus what the coach puts on the fields.

There was an article posted about 2 weeks ago by an Oregon State coach where he noted his 3b, SS, 2b, centerfielder, and catcher were all former high school shortstops. He said it was a good idea to find another position if possible rather than sitting behind an All-American or what not. I agree. Same thing with pitchers. If I were a starter in high school, I certainly would not be complaining about relieving initially in college.

OB44 - outstanding post I will just second the notion that all of the challenges you mentioned were more than mere hypotheticals but actual realities imho.

quote:

Originally posted by RAH Lefty's Dad:
TPM,
An interesting twist last year at my son's school; the coach asked just before the break for all of the players to pick the best line-up. They each completed three different line-ups.
They picked the best defensive team, best batting order (without taking position into consideration), and pitching: four staters, one long relief, one short relief and one closer.

The players saw the results but were not able to obtain a copy. It would be interesting to see what the players think versus what the coach puts on the fields.

My son's coach does this also, asks basically who they feel should start and why. And who should be on the travel roster. They never see the results.

One more thing. Many seem to go through sophmore slump, most recover, but many do not. Older players get hurt.

Freshman need to be ready for the call up, just n case.

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
One more thing. Many seem to go through sophmore slump, most recover, but many do not. Older players get hurt.

Freshman need to be ready for the call up, just n case.

They start with alot of players because they need alot of players. There is alot of hand wringing about over recruiting, when injuries, grades, flawed personal decisions made after dark, economics, among other things, limit the number of players available during the course of the season.

The lesson is not to be one of the players dealt out.

Alot of times kids go into a situation that appears to be bleak as far as playing time. They look at the roster and see a couple of kids in front of them and think "Ive got to beat those guys out for playing time". Usually you do not have to worry about beating them all out. Just out last them. Be ready be prepared keep working hard and be where you are supposed to be when you are supposed to be there. Alot of times the competition has a way of thinning itself out and most of the time it has nothing to do with performance on the field and sometimes it does. Things can change very quickly just make sure you are in a posistion to take advantage of it when it happens.

I'm amazed at the great (and timely) responses I received to the question! You all are quite knowledgeable and very helpful.

The information you've provided certainly helps put the PT question into excllent perspective and my kid'll benefit immensely from hearing all of your input and suggestions.

Many thanks to everyone!

Now, my only worry --- other than whether he'll get into college and make the BB squad and make the grades and get any PT before he graduates --- is whether I'll be able to afford traveling to his (... uh, his team's) games!

This is only ONE school, but last year UVA started 3 freshman last year in the infield:
Farrell (3B)
Miclat (SS)
Adams (2B)

I realize this is an anomoly, but it is still a fact.

My son went into his frosh year with no promises and pretty much was told he would not be redshirted but not to expect a ton of innings, he ended up with 90. It comes down to performance and nothing else. If you have the ability and the team has the need you will find your spot. I think every situation is unique, and on this site, as parents we have experienced specific situations but every situation is different and performance will dictate the end result.

quote:

One more thing. Many seem to go through sophmore slump, most recover, but many do not. Older players get hurt.

Without making waves with my buddy , many players go through slumps, some recover some do not. Personally I don't like that "sophmore slump" hindsight phrase as an excuse. Bottom line when a soph comes back with a bad year they call it that dreaded Sophmore slump, when it happens to an upperclassman it's called a "down year". As far as older players getting hurt, that may be true if you're 50, but in these cases with 18-22 year olds it's probably because they play more.

Bobblehead,

I personally do not like school 1. I LOVE utility guys, but I HATE the utility tag.

Speaking from personal observations only, I have no doubt my son could start at his school at 7 positions and be better than the current starter. Cocky-yes, but I am pretty sure of it. However, I would hate for his coaches to think of him like that. In their eyes, he's a MIF and that's just the way we like it.

Now, like you say, if a kid has a great bat, they will find a place for him to play.

All schools (coaches) differ in their approaches, so I don't know how you could answer this in a sweeping statement.

Check out last season's stats vs. the team's roster, both usually available on line. See for yourself what they do in real life. I know one ACC school that had three frosh in their starting infield and a fourth in their weekend rotation. Others barely used freshmen at all. It all depends on who you have, how deep you are, and the particular coach's philosophy, all things to investigate before you pursue a particular school.

Which is not to say there's anything wrong with going somewhere where you won't be thrown into the fire right away. First decide how important it would be to your son to play immediately (or not), and then see how the program's history matches his personal goals.