Starters vs. Relievers

Relieving is also a "mindset" ... it takes different personalities to excel in each role, but that's just an opinion. Rivera has the mind-set from what I've seen to be successful at both, but it's a hard adjustment.

What does seem to be univeral is that starters need more than 2 quality pitches and relievers can rely on fewer quality pitches. Rivera would need to polish a breaking ball and change speeds more if he was a starter.

Finally, though Rivera is in the upper 90's for his one inning, he would probably not be able to maintain that over 5-7 inning stretches. Example of that is just as simple as looking at John Smoltz this past season. Though he threw in the high 90's as a reliever, his velocity as a starter this season was significantly lower (91-92 with an occasional harder pitch).

I believe it's easier for a starter to do a good job in relief than for a closer to jump into the rotation and be sucessful for the long term but, again, that's a generality and a good pitcher is a good pitcher ... Rivera is one of the best I've ever seen.
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BUT ... ask the Braves this year what a difference it would have made for them to have someone like Rivera in the closer job. It would have taken a tremendous strain off of the bullpen and the starters.

That ONE part of the Yankees rotation/bullpen isn't broken and I wouldn't blow up my bullpen trying to fix my rotation.

I guess George just ran out of checks this year.

HHH

I totally agree that it is a mindset

Closers, at least in my mind, are also pitchers who can throw heat for an inning or two and come back day after day if needed, especially in the post season.

Mindset is the main difference. A starter paces himself and uses his pitch mixes to get to the end of his shift. I have asked my son which he prefers and he loves to close. He says you can load it up from the 1st pitch and go all out. His top velocity is 84 but when he is a starter which is 90% of the time he pitches 78-82 and dosen't generally get nasty until the 3rd inning. He is looking for low pitch count innings in the 1st couple innings and to establish his control and strike zone.

EH!

I agree mindset has lots to do with it.

Never had a real appreciation for the reliever until son had to this year. It was a real struggle coming out of the bullpen for him. He always was a starter all of his life and he found the mental adjustments frustrating, as do most in college who have to relieve being starters all of their lives. The worst was from going from starter to reliever, back to starter. However, do know in college, pitchers usally have to be able to cover as starters, relievers and closers as it may be needed in post play.

Often in the low minors, pitchers are given a specific role based on their pitching repertiore. One or two pitch pitchers generally become relievers and pitchers with more quality pitches often become starters.

In addition to mindset, which I too believe is an essential difference, a reliever often seems to be able to get "ready" faster than a starter and can warm up several days in a row without hurting himself. Some can ... my son never could

While it is part of the equation I dont agree that the mental outlook is the main ingredient for a reliever. Most pitchers entering the minors were starting college/HS pitchers before that. Many minor leaguers entering the majors as a reliever were starters in the minors. Most MLB teams have a 4 or 5 man starting rotation, there are a dozen or so pitchers on the staff, mostly relievers. Alot of arms for very few spots. Except for the few "born to be closers", I would bet almost every pitchers goal in baseball is to be a starter. At the beginning of the year a major or minor league team develops a starting rotation, they don't develop a reliever rotation, or you hope you are not categorized as having "reliever potential".

I guess my point is that you can take a starter and put him in the pen and in most cases he will be as effective than the rest of the bullpen as we've seen in this years playoffs. However, in most cases you cannot put a guy from the bullpen into the starting rotation and have him perform as well as a starter.

For the most part (excluding closers who are playing under different physical rules) starters are the best pitchers on the team, long relievers are starter "wannabes", setup men are closer "wannabes", and situational (example: left on left) pitchers are those who have an issue with a complete lineup.

This is by no means a cut on relievers as there is a defined need for them. However I think we use "reliever mindset" as a nice way to say he does not have the tools to start or close. Many times you see a reliever one year develop into a starter the next. At the same time you see starters sent to the bullpen because they are not doing the job.

Ok, so Rivera couldn't probably last 6 innings since he only has a fastball so hitter'swould eventually be able toget usedtohim easily. But what about someone like Gagne who hasa fast, curveand change?
What exactly is the difference between the mindset of a starter or reliever?
Obviosuly the difference between a starter and revliever is that a starter will getyou at least 5 innings while a reliver will get you about 2 innings. But what kind of tools or skills differ from srt vs. rlf that would get you 6 innings vs. 2 innings?

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What exactly is the difference between the mindset of a starter or reliever?

I think the answers were all given above. Again, starters know which day they are going to pitch. Relievers come in only when the starter is essentially done, it could be one or two innings, 5 or 6 or 7 or 8. Or maybe not. Bottom line, he has to be ready on any given day. And be ready sometimes on a moments notice. Their physical conditioning is different also.

Obviosuly the difference between a starter and revliever is that a starter will getyou at least 5 innings while a reliver will get you about 2 innings. But what kind of tools or skills differ from srt vs. rlf that would get you 6 innings vs. 2 innings?

The difference is the pitches in the pitchers arsenal.

Relievers face the task of getting up many days in a row, too. So not only do they have to get mentally "up" for the challenge...they have to be able to communicate what they've got after the third day.

I have seen, at the college level, relievers in our conference throw complete games out there Only a small exaggeration in some instances.

The difference between a starter and reliever is mechanics.

A starter "usually" has a "sweeter" pitching form that allows the pitcher to throw hard without much effort. His balance and dynamic load point throughout his form are maintained such that the fatigue factor is minimal. This also allows him to develop additional pitches without any effect in his base.

With relievers and (closers) in college you're usually dealing with young pitcher who could have been starters in HS and are still developing physically and mechanically. When a younger pitcher is brought in to pitch at the college level he finds out that what was a heater in HS is not so "unhittable" at the college level.

The reliever also may have a "hitch" in his pitching form that may not impact his velocity, and in fact may help me with his rhythm, eg., Robb Nen, but it also creates additional stress on his ability to throw more than one or two innings, though he may be able to throw at a very high velocity.

In the case of Rivera (closer Yankees) he throws a cut FB that has very late movement. The way he achieves that movement also puts an enormous strain on his arm since he actually snaps his thumb and finger to get that spin on the ball. It also creates a blistering effect on his index and middle finger. For these reasons he has to throw in moderation so not to overstress his arm and suffer a bleeding blister.

It also takes time to develop a proper curveball and/or slider since that pitch has to be developed in moderation so as not to overstress the elbow. Rolling up the thumb at the point of release, while keeping the elbow slightly bent just at the point of snap off is difficult to achieve on a consistent basis. Even last night you saw the St Louis Cardinal pitcher having difficulty with his command of his breaking ball.

It's easy to talk about this stuff in pitching, but when a pitcher goes to the mound and the game is on the line he has to be able to achive these pitches without thinking about them and doing it repetitively while hitting his spots, eg., within a triangulation of 3 inches, and still maintain a velocity thats either above the batter's bat speed or below his bat speed. These requirements take a very long time to master, and some pitchers just never do. The ones that do are worth a lot of money.

In my opinion Mulder is a great pitcher but, He was struggling because his centre of balance was off. LHP s tend to be too erevt and should be a little out front when at the set position. You see some pitchers bend over and come to a set position. It is very important to get proper balance over the rubber in order to bring your arm through the proper arm slot and rotate the hips for maximum control and thrust. Too straight up you tend to release erly and throw high and to his left.

RR.....you make some valid statements.....but proper mechanics are the same for all pitchers, regardless of whether they are starters or relievers. I don't ask a high school kid, prior to working with him, if he is a starter or reliever to determine what kind of mechanics I am going to teach him. I am going to teach him the appropriate mechanics for pitching.

Interesting article in (of all places) The New Yorker regarding mechanics:


EVERYBODY’S AN EXPERT

DRAWING PITCHERS
Issue of 2005-10-24
Posted 2005-10-17

Michael Witte, an illustrator, enjoys his work but finds that the artist’s life can be lonely. So, a few years ago, to relieve the monotony of his days, he installed a twenty-seven-inch television in his attic studio overlooking the Hudson River in Nyack. He liked playing tapes of old baseball games, and found himself frequently pausing to watch the windups of Hall of Fame pitchers, frame by frame. “One of the things I discovered is that the mechanics of the greatest pitchers are consistent throughout the history of the game,” he said the other day. During the course of his procrastinations, Witte became convinced that he had divined a very important secret: how to safely and dependably throw a ninety-five-mile-per-hour fastball.

Witte, who is sixty-one years old, with wispy graying hair, grew up near St. Louis, rooting for his home-town team. As it happened, some boyhood friends of his bought a stake in the Cardinals in the mid-nineties. Witte began attending spring-training games with one of them, Andrew Baur, occasionally dropping hints that he had made a revolutionary discovery. At first, he was a timid Galileo. One afternoon, Baur invited him on the field to watch Rick Ankiel warm up. “Is that beautiful or what?” Baur said. Witte kept quiet. “I didn’t want to be a nasty guest,” he said. “But internally I said, ‘Or what.’ I just knew he was never going to fulfill his promise.” A few years post hoc, Ankiel lost the ability to throw a baseball within the same county as home plate. He is now an outfielder.

Gradually, Witte grew more confident about his theories, to the dismay of his wife, a psychologist, and his three sons. “My dad will happily teach anyone how to throw a round ball with optimal efficiency,” said his son Spencer, who played second base for Temple. “If you sound interested, you basically just volunteered for an hour lesson.” Unbidden, Witte began faxing elaborate diagrams of pitching mechanics to his pals in St. Louis. Either they were just being polite or they saw something potentially valuable, but they arranged for Witte to give a presentation on the mechanics of the Hall of Fame pitcher Bob Gibson to an audience that happened to include Bob Gibson. Witte recently learned that the night before the presentation Gibson told Baur, “If this guy is full of ****, I’m walking out.” Gibson stayed. (Witte has not ventured to ask if this constituted an endorsement.) Witte said, “I was able to show him why he had been a great pitcher, which he never understood before then.”

Witte’s scientific theory, the specifics of which he refuses to divulge, has something to do with how successful pitchers keep their gloves elevated at the start of their windups, let their back shoulders drop, and lift their front legs high. Jeff Luhnow, the Cardinals’ vice-president of player procurement, admits that Witte at first seemed to have “very little credibility,” but he nevertheless put him on the payroll as a consultant.

In May, before the amateur draft, Luhnow sent Witte several DVDs of pitchers the Cardinals were considering. Witte found that several of the prospects had windups that deviated from his preferred trajectory, and so, in lengthy memos, written with a drawing pen, he advised the Cardinals to avoid them. A few days before the draft, two of these pitchers blew out their arms. “I think this helped me establish more authority,” Witte said.

Luhnow also invited Witte to spring training to lecture the team’s minor-league pitching coaches. He arrived in Jupiter, Florida, carrying three suitcases of video tapes with labels like “Drysdale!!!” and “Seaver!!!” and a large artist’s sketch pad with a hand-drawn presentation which he called “Classic Mechanics: A Throwing Model Based on the Construction of the Motions of Great Historic Pitchers.” Five pitching coaches, wearing their uniforms, sat down in a conference room. Did they look happy to be there? “Not exactly,” Witte said. None of the coaches offered him any tips on his drawing style. — Michael Rosenwald