Starting pitchers in season workout

I was wondering who you are targeting for your in season workout?

Mainly high school players and up. The throwing distances might be a little far for freshman and possibly sophomores because every player develops at different times. The program can really be adapted for these players just by cutting down the distance in which they throw.

I don't necessarily agree with some of it. Running after starts is good. It seems light, and would prefer to use Jaeger's methodology. This is very individualistic so you have to work up a program for yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
I don't necessarily agree with some of it. Running after starts is good. It seems light, and would prefer to use Jaeger's methodology. This is very individualistic so you have to work up a program for yourself.

Very individualistic is a good way to describe it. I posted this on another forum and the first response was that there was way too much long distance running. Personally i feel the 20-25 mins I have listed is good to get a good sweat working but you should be sweating heavily for over an hour to increase endurance and get rid of lactic acids

I have a quick question regarding the lactic acid aspect of this. Does running actually get rid of lactic acid? I was told by a physical therapist that rest is the only thing that gets rid of it. Any thoughts?

quote:

Originally posted by BBLEFTY21:
I have a quick question regarding the lactic acid aspect of this. Does running actually get rid of lactic acid? I was told by a physical therapist that rest is the only thing that gets rid of it. Any thoughts?

There has been some studies done saying that the idea of pitching and lactic acids are a myth. If you ask me and a lot of other pitchers (not all) they will tell you that their arms feel much better after running sweating heavily after start. I do believe that this is what breaks of the lactic acid, but you will find some people who will disagree. Once again our workouts between starts really depend on you. If you feel that running long distance after you throw a lot of pitches helps your arm feel better then that is what you will want to do.

Lactate pooling is not responsible for delayed onset muscle soreness, as we talked about on another message board, Dan.

Training eccentrically and not forcing your body to adapt under strange circumstances (taking too much time off of competitive throwing, for example) will help ward off future DOMS. Extended periods of rest are detrimental to training. Physiological systems do not like atrophy and/or major changes imposed on it.

Kyle,

I don't know if there is lactate build up or not, but agree running after throwing appears to help. Not sure if it is getting the body warm and blood flowing more freely to the damaged tissue, or just getting the area warmed up and moving that helps the healing, but anecdotally it appears to help.

I am not sure I understand the second comment. Are you saying the pitchers should not shut down for 2-3 months per year?

I am not a Dr. but the stress that pitching puts on an arm muscles, tendons, etc seems extreme compared to say doing squats. Most medical professionals in the pitching community suggest that 2-3 month shut downs are necessary. That does not mean they stop working out, just stop throwing. Curious about your comments and what your experience is.

JMO, and I'd like to hear others but I think that the 2-3 month shutdowns are only necessary after very significant workloads equivalent to a MLB season for a MLB pitcher. A lesser workload would be likely to wear out the arm of a younger pitcher of course.

Otherwise a much more limited shutdown with getting back into throwing lightly pretty quickly then a very gradual buildup is probably the best approach.

There's nothing wrong with a 2-3 month throwing shutdown if a lot of damage has been done and the recovery period is very gradual similar to rehab from TJ. Coming back too quickly from a long shutdown has it's own risks as lots of poorly aligned scar tissue has most likely been built up.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
JMO, and I'd like to hear others but I think that the 2-3 month shutdowns are only necessary after very significant workloads equivalent to a MLB season for a MLB pitcher. A lesser workload would be likely to wear out the arm of a younger pitcher of course.

Otherwise a much more limited shutdown with getting back into throwing lightly pretty quickly then a very gradual buildup is probably the best approach.

There's nothing wrong with a 2-3 month throwing shutdown if a lot of damage has been done and the recovery period is very gradual similar to rehab from TJ. Coming back too quickly from a long shutdown has it's own risks as lots of poorly aligned scar tissue has most likely been built up.

CADad beat me to the punch (as he usually does!) - I don't think pitchers should "shut it down" for 2-3 months in the offseason if they are typical amateur pitchers who are trying to improve on their velocity and control. Professional pitchers can afford this luxury, but amateur pitchers in HS/College tend not to throw that many innings/pitches in-season and can be treated a bit more aggressively.

This isn't to say that pitchers should necessarily be throwing bullpens all winter, but simply getting some throwing stimulation in the offseason is important. Playing catch, throwing batting practice (my favorite activity for pitchers to do), throwing long toss, and medicine ball work that trains elbow extension are all important activities for offseason training.

Kyle,

What do you base your suggestions on throwing year round? How do you reconcile it against ASMI position statement below?

One of the coaches my son is getting some pitching help from is currently pitching in AAA and he threw 76 innings last season. When he got back he said he was done, tired and exhausted and needed the rest. A typical HS starter will get around 35-50 innings per season, when you add in summer and fall showcase season you can add another 40 so this puts most frontline starters at around 80 innings per season. It seems to me that they need the rest, and can use the time to get in pitching shape in the gym away from the baseball. BTW my son's coach/friends velocity jumped this year around 3MPH and he attributed this to the extra time he put in the gym in the off season. He believe's (as well as his organization) that the off season should be focused on strength and conditioning.

Why would this be different for a mature HS or college player?



AMSI Position Statement

With the rise in elbow and shoulder injuries in youth baseball pitchers, the adult community needs to take steps to prevent these injuries. Research points to overuse as the principle risk factor. Poor pitching mechanics also contribute to injury risk. Another suggested risk factor is poor physical fitness.

Throwing curveballs has been suggested as a risk factor, but the existing research does not support this concern. However, a youth pitcher may not have enough physical development, neuromuscular control, and proper coaching instruction to throw a curveball with good mechanics. Throwing curveballs too early may be counter-productive, leading to arm fatigue as well as limiting the youth's ability to master fastball mechanics.

Thus, the recommendations for preventing injuries in youth baseball pitchers are:

1. Watch and respond to signs of fatigue. If a youth pitcher complains of fatigue or looks fatigued, let him rest from pitching and other throwing.
2. No overhead throwing of any kind for at least 2-3 months per year (4 months is preferred). No competitive baseball pitching for at least 4 months per year.
3. Follow limits for pitch counts and days rest. (Example limits are shown in the table below.)
4. Avoid pitching on multiple teams with overlapping seasons.
5. Learn good throwing mechanics as soon as possible. The first steps should be to learn, in order: 1) basic throwing, 2) fastball pitching, 3) change-up pitching.
6. Avoid using radar guns.
7. A pitcher should not also be a catcher for his team. The pitcher-catcher combination results in many throws and may increase the risk of injury.
8. If a pitcher complains of pain in his elbow or shoulder, get an evaluation from a sports medicine physician.
9. Inspire youth pitchers to have fun playing baseball and other sports. Participation and enjoyment of various physical activities will increase the youth's athleticism and interest in sports.

Example limits for number of pitches thrown in games
Age (yrs) 2006 USA Baseball Guidelines 2010 Little League Baseball Regulations
Daily limits
17-18 n/a 105/day
15-16 n/a 95/day
13-14 75/game
11-12 75/game 85/day
9-10 50/game 75/day
7-8 n/a 50/day
Weekly limits
13-14 125/wk; 1000/season; 3000/yr
11-12 100/wk; 1000/season; 3000/yr
9-10 75/wk; 1000/season; 2000/yr
7-18 21-35 pitches --> 1 day rest;36-50 pitches --> 2 days rest;51-65 pitches --> 3 days rest66- pitches --> 4 days rest

quote:

Originally posted by Kyle B:
Lactate pooling is not responsible for delayed onset muscle soreness, as we talked about on another message board, Dan.

Training eccentrically and not forcing your body to adapt under strange circumstances (taking too much time off of competitive throwing, for example) will help ward off future DOMS. Extended periods of rest are detrimental to training. Physiological systems do not like atrophy and/or major changes imposed on it.

Kyle thanks for the information. I did some research and found out a lot more about lactic and lactate acid. It appears that there is no definite studies to prove the build up/effects of this in the arm after pitching and the relationship with soreness, is this correct? I've been playing for over 20 years and I love how I can still learn something new every day!

quote:

JMO, and I'd like to hear others but I think that the 2-3 month shutdowns are only necessary after very significant workloads equivalent to a MLB season for a MLB pitcher. A lesser workload would be likely to wear out the arm of a younger pitcher of course.

Otherwise a much more limited shutdown with getting back into throwing lightly pretty quickly then a very gradual buildup is probably the best approach.

There's nothing wrong with a 2-3 month throwing shutdown if a lot of damage has been done and the recovery period is very gradual similar to rehab from TJ. Coming back too quickly from a long shutdown has it's own risks as lots of poorly aligned scar tissue has most likely been built up.

I think this also varies from pitcher to pitcher. Personally I think you do need a shut down after the season regardless of what level you play at. But how much is the real question? When I was in high school and middle school I didn't take off as much time since the amount of games and practices were much less. Our fall ball would end at the end of October, normally shut down throwing for about 4-6 weeks. When I started throwing it was very gradual, maybe only 3 times a week and slowly added to the amount and distance every time to build my arm strength back up. We started winter ball in mid/late January which consisted of 1 practice and 1 game per week. My innings were limited to just 3/outing which I thought was perfect amount so I would be 100% when spring ball rolled around in beginning of march.

Since playing professionally I have much more time off. My season ended the last day of august. Since then I have enjoyed golfing and 6 packs. This lasted until the first of October where i made my way back to the gym. I don't plan on picking up a ball until mid/late november. In the mean time I will bust my *** in the gym and work on my flexibility and mechanics. I feel since my season has a much longer of an off season you have the luxury of being able to take off more time. I also recommend it because when you play almost every day for 100 games it wears on you physically and mentally.

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
Kyle,

What do you base your suggestions on throwing year round? How do you reconcile it against ASMI position statement below?

One of the coaches my son is getting some pitching help from is currently pitching in AAA and he threw 76 innings last season. When he got back he said he was done, tired and exhausted and needed the rest. A typical HS starter will get around 35-50 innings per season, when you add in summer and fall showcase season you can add another 40 so this puts most frontline starters at around 80 innings per season. It seems to me that they need the rest, and can use the time to get in pitching shape in the gym away from the baseball. BTW my son's coach/friends velocity jumped this year around 3MPH and he attributed this to the extra time he put in the gym in the off season. He believe's (as well as his organization) that the off season should be focused on strength and conditioning.

Why would this be different for a mature HS or college player?

I agree that the offseason should be mostly dedicated to strength and conditioning. That's how we treat it here. And I agree with ASMI's recommendations except for this statement:

"No overhead throwing of any kind for at least 2-3 months per year (4 months is preferred). No competitive baseball pitching for at least 4 months per year."

Complete rest of the pitching arm leads to atrophy and a decline in skill acquisition. Simply throwing batting practice once or twice per week at 60% is fine by me, and taking a month's worth of rest after the fall ball season is OK with me too. For example, fall ball tends to end around mid-October here in Seattle. Amateur pitchers then typically take two weeks off completely, then get into the gym to start their off-season lifting program. By mid to late November, they will be throwing batting practice, short toss catch, and eventually "long toss" (our guys don't usually go over 180 feet in the off-season). Just getting some sort of stimulation that isn't taxing is worthwhile for pitchers.

Resting from mid-October to mid-February, then picking up a baseball and hoping to be ready for HS tryouts is silly. Pitchers will have gone so far backwards and their arms will not be ready to throw 80-100+ pitches per start at the beginning of the HS season (early March). To me, that's an even bigger risk of injury - putting a cold pitcher out there without adequate preparation.