Stats

luv baseball, you must have some connections. The Pilot has not printed mid season stats for two or three years (except for the metro conference). Within one week of your posting, they magically appear in the paper. Ask and ye shall receive.

Now that you have solved that problem, would you turn you attention to solving the playoff debate that seems to be building and, my personal favorite, identifying the best twelve players (rather than by position) in each district at the year end?

The Va. pilot has stats.

El Gato,

If winning the lottery was as easy!

Picking the top player at each position is a tall order. The top pitcher might get 100 posts and all would have a decent case. Plus most of those guys play another key position such as N. Thompson at WB plays SS. So you'll probably have one or two of those guys show up that way.

Picking outfielders is another problem. Most teams probably have their best outfielder in Center so it would not be surprising to see 3 CF picked because they will probably have the best numbers in most teams outfield. There are exceptions but IMO opinion that's generally true.

More controversial at this point might be POY. A number of players have strong cases but I have to guess if one of them is the difference in getting their team the title it gives the inside track.

On the playoff thing IMO Head to Head ought be the decider if applicable. For example if GF beats GB and they both finished as the only two loss teams then GF should get the nod based on handing GB it's two losses.

A 3 way tie is very possible but the possiblities are many. They will be whittled down by Friday night. I have done some homework so I will take a stab.

I think it is only possible for a 4 way tie if other teams beat the top 4 and everyone finishes with 4 losses. Here's why:

1) IR still has WB and GB left so to stay on three losses they have to win out which puts WB at 3 loses & GB at 2

2) WB would then have to win out which puts GF and GB at 3 losses.

3) GF & GB play so one of them would have to have 4 losses.

If that happened then IR would have a 3-1 record in a 3 way tie by beating WB 2x and splitting with either GF or GB. WB would be 2-2 if GF and 1-3 if GB.

In any three way tie at 3 losses that includes IR they would be 3-1 against the other two and would have the most legitmate claim based on head to head.

I think a three way tie that includes GF, WB and GB at three losses is only possible if GB lost to someone other than GF or WB and all three run the table otherwise. In that case the head to head has to be 2-2 among those three teams.

Got a three sided coin?

This makes my head hurt just thinking about it. Can you put it on powerpoint. Just kidding.

Seems like to me, as long as you win, you won't have to worry about this ugly triangle?

stats and standings are different.

ofs10,

Stats and standings are very different. That is why I commented that I have not seen mid-season stats in a very long time. The standings are printed every Tuesday, and, for the first time in a long time, the stats were printed too.

luv baseball,

In picking the all district teams, I would not look at positions at all. If you do, you are asking for trouble. For example, if I am a pitcher in the SED and am thought to be or viewed as the third best pitcher, I would be some kinda of upset to be placed on the second team just because there are only two spots for pitchers. Which pitcher do you leave off - Ali, Cox, Flaherty, Ingram, Johnsonbaugh, Lighton, Moore, Stokes, Thompson, Van Ashe, etc. Same concern if I am the fourth best outfielder or second best catcher. I realize most of the pitchers and outfielders play another position, but why put yourself in the position of leaving one or two off the team or trying to fit them into another position. Rather than constrain your choices, pick the best twelve regardless of position and identify "the best of the best". (Thank you Will Smith, MIB).

As far as all district teams are concerned over the last few years in the SED I have noticed players getting multiple spots on all district teams, more players could make the team if they had a rule of thumb that a player gets one spot on the team. I know it is all about the coaches votes, but I remember couple of years ago Keeton was 1st team all district at 3 position a bit of over kill imo and I believe Ali was at 2 positions last year. I'm sure those kids would not mind another deserving player making the team. Just a thought.

In years past, the Pilot has ask coaches for certain stats so they could publish the top stats. As a matter of fact, I specifically remember player A having better stats than player B. Player A's coach did not respond to the Pilot, therefore, was left out of the "stat" printing.

If I were a high school coach, I would want to keep the "nonobvious" stats close to the vest until at least after the regular season. Make the opposing coaches do their homework. No problem with disclosing the homeruns and pitching record because they are printed in the box scores after each game.

DCHEAT, nice point. Instead of identifying ten players, why not identify the twelve top players. The second team would identify 13 through 24. Would certainly increase the number of players recognized and simplify matters.

1943 yankees, I bet you player's A coach intentionally failed to respond. If I am a coach, I might not want the other coaches to know who has the highest batting average on my team or who drives in all the runs.

I understand that point and perhaps you are right. Not sure why a coach would or would not respond.

Though, I would hope that all of the coaches know exactly which players have high batting averages. Printing anything in the paper is just giving somebody kudos, I am all for that.

My glass is still half full!

Sorry for diverting the thread. It seems clear that every coach is not responding. IMO it is unlikely that you'd see that many players from just a few schools at the top of the stats. Why coaches don't respond is probably a mix of playing close to the vest, not wanting their own players to be focused on them and maybe something as simple as they just don't want to respond to the paper.

Part of the reason I asked was curiousity about the overall averages, OBP, SLG and RBI as well as the pitching ERA, WHIP etc. I was looking to get a feel for the depth of the various teams beyond the usual suspects discussed here. On the weekly SED thread there is quite a debate on the approach Coach Lee is using that is partly based on this reasoning. It seems to me that all of the contenders have a solid core of 4 or 5 but is the depth of the teams that may be the differnece. So seeing if a teams 6-9 are hitting near .350 vs .260 somewhere else might be the difference maker in a tight play off game. Getting a few runs and turning the lineup over one more time just puts a lot of pressure on opposing teams.

I believe it is possible GB may win the district and yet might not have anyone make the All Tidewater and might only have 1 or 2 All District. The may very well have the deepest group of solid players in the district with less stars and fewer holes than anyone else.

Not every program falsifies the stats to promote its players and the program, but most do. Therefore, comparisons and all-league selections are a farce in most cases. Sure, standout players like a David Wright or Justin Upton are clear picks. But when 90% or more of programs are promoting players based on false stats, then most of the selections are not worth the paper they are printed on.

HS baseball should forget all about stats and all-league and such. Promote team focus and team loyalty above all else. Let the MLB scouts and college coaches find their players by watching them on the field. The charlatan pets that HS coaches promote are going to be outed at some point, anyway. Scouts and college coaches can read right through stat lies.

There are always going to be teams whose stats look like dad was keeping the book -- if son was hitting it was a hit, if son was pitching it was an error, etc.

But beyond that, a lot of these programs use student managers to keep the books, and a lot of them truly don't know how to score a game. They haven't got a clue what makes the difference between hit and error, why it matters whether you call something a wild pitch or a passed ball, or how you go about calculating earned vs. unearned runs.

When you run that out across several teams, the stats you get are useless.

And then there's always that one program that has a stickler keeping the book completely straight, and when the coach goes into the all-district discussion meeting he has to argue for a kid who reports a batting average that's 150 points lower than his competition's. Apples and oranges.

Makes you wonder why we annually see someone on here complaining that their son isn't being highly recruited despite his awesome stats. You think everyone understands what goes on, but I guess if your numbers look great you don't want to hear it.

Interesting point on knowing how to keep score. It is really surprising how many people really don't know how to do it.

I bet if you asked a group of HS parents to define a "Fielders Choice" more than you'd think wouldn't know. So with a R1 when Johnny hits a two hopper to short and beats the rap on the DP it's a "hit". Or my all time favorite "he got on".

Yeah, I once read an article that attributed a .750 on-base average to a kid. As you read the article it became apparent that the only way you could remotely come up with such numbers would be to credit him with times reached on FC's and E's.

And even then it sounded inflated.

Even among people who know baseball, you often see hits credited if the attempt on the other runner does not result in an out.

I saw another situation the other day. Men on 1st and 2nd with one out, bouncer to 3B, he steps on the bag and throws to 1st, throw is high, runner is safe. Next batter singles in the guy who had been on first, who is now on second. In the newspaper the defensive team was never charged with an error, so that would mean the run was charged as earned.

For today's quiz, I'll ask, does anyone here know why that was wrong?

The overthrow is not considered an error but the AB is a fielder's choice.

Midlo, not quite understanding the facts. Did the batter runner advance to second on the overthrow to first or did the batter runner stay at first and advance in another play to second? It would not be an error if the second out of a double play is not completed and the runner did not advance on that throw.

Can't assume the DP but can give error for runner moving up to 2nd. Scoring on a single (assuming next batter is retired) is an UER because he would not have been in scoring position without the overthrow.

A HR by next batter is 2ER.

Runners were on 1st and 2nd. Force the runner at 3B. Runner from 1B moved up to 2B on GB. Batter gets 1B on overthrow. No one advanced on overthrow.

Redbird, Not sure you can know that runner did not advance to 2nd on overthrow because runner at 2nd could have advance to 3rd on same overthrow. That is why I asked Midlo for clarification of the facts.

Let me see if I have this right, Who's on first, I don't know on 2nd, what was the question?

quote:

Originally posted by can-o-corn:
Let me see if I have this right, Who's on first, I don't know on 2nd, what was the question?

That is hilarious.

See both sides of this story, but stats are important in baseball. Probably more than any other major sport. Would be unfortunate to discount a significant statistical year by a player because the general population does not know the baseball rules or how to apply them and, consequently, the reader discounts the stats. Some people know the rules and actually apply them.

In the above senario, no error should be charged if the batter/runner and the runner on first base did not advance beyond first and second base. However, if either runner advances on the bad throw, you must account for the extra base and record an error. I believe Midlo suggested at least one runner advanced and, hence, an error would be charged.

Training session next Tuesday for all scorekeepers.

El Gato, Don't agree that Midlo suggested that at least one runner advanced. He said "Next batter singles in the guy who had been on first, who is now on second." Would you say a guy was on first if he went straight to second on the overthrow? He could have gotten to second in a number of ways - stolen base, wild pitch, passed ball or that ball overthrown to first - all of which could have different consequences. Before a rule can be applied, one has to have a clear understanding of the facts. Midlo needs to clarify.

The rule that "you can't assume a double play" applies only to the accuracy relay throws. In the situation described above, there was only one throw. That is, we're dealing with the primary throw, not the relay throw. Therefore you should score an E on the 3B for allowing the runner to reach first, and the fact that he got an out at third before making the throw does not change this. Since in this game, that should've been the third out, all subsequent runs are unearned.

It would be comparable to what would be scored if the 3B's throw were timely and accurate and 1B simply dropped the throw. You can and indeed must "assume the out" in that situation and score an E.

Another comparable rule is that you don't assume a caught stealing. So if a catcher had plenty of time to nab a base stealer but throws the ball into CF, you credit a steal, not an error, on the advance to second (though if the runner gets to third, you would then have SB + E). HOWEVER, if the throw has arrived and the runner is out, but the MIF receives the throw and then drops it, you score a caught stealing + E on the guy who dropped it. If that runner later scores, his run is unearned, as would be any runs scoring after 2 were out.

You can find all this in the NFHS rule book and case book under scorekeeping, for those who have books at home.

But I'm betting your typical teenage girl HS team manager doesn't have those at home.

Midlo, How about giving the rule cite or page number of the high school case book? Is that a high school versus major league difference? Rule 10.12(d)(3) of MLB rules states that the official scorer shall not charge an error against "any fielder who makes a wild throw in attempting to complete a double play or triple play, unless such wild throw enables any runner to advance beyond the base such runner would have reached had the throw not been wild." The MLB rule does not say it has to be a relay throw nor do I see anything in the grey comments to that effect. The third baseman was attempting to complete a double play.

Midlo, Now I have had the opportunity to look at the 2010 NFHS Baseball Rules Book and it looks a lot like the MLB rule I quoted above. Rule 9, Section 5, Art. 5, Exception 3 (page 57) reads: “Neither catcher nor infielder is charged with an error for a wild throw in an attempt to complete a double play, unless the throw is so wild that it permits a runner to advance an additional base.” No mention of a relay throw requirement in this rule. Also looked in the 2010 NFHS Baseball Case Book under Rule 9 situations and could not find the example which you posed. Please provide the cite to support your position. Thanks.

WB has it right. In my earlier post I stated you can not assume a double play. So no advance by R2 or BR means any scoring is ER unless there are subsequent errors.

While that is the correct official scoring I believe it is a flaw in the rule book if an ordinary throw gets the runner. This is because if there was 2 out and a straight throw to 1st it would be still be E5 and all subsequent scoring would be UER.

Odd but true.

Redbird, It is a little early to jump on Midlo. He said it could all be found in the NFHS rule book. I just could not find it. Give him the opportunity to cite us to the rule. Now, the second situation he mentioned, "if 3B's throw were timely and accurate and 1B simply dropped the throw" is specifically covered in the rules, both NFHS and MLB. It is in the same NFHS rule 9 I cited in my immediately preceding posting above and states: "But if a player drops a thrown ball, when by holding it he would have completed the double (or triple) play, it is an error." But NOTHING I found says that the situation Midlo first described is treated in the same manner. I am sure Midlo will cite the rule for us because I don't imagine he wants to be taking scoring lessons with that

quote:

typical teenage girl HS team manager

To be honest, I'm guilty of working from memory. I used to read the rule the same, though, and at some point someone pointed out to me where this provision is found. Unfortunately I cannot find that discussion myself at this point. I have the rule book and the case book but I don't have an official's manual, so I may have to check there -- if I can find one, as it's apparently not available on line. My memory is that it's explained not in rules verbiage but in an illustration.

Midlo,

Perhaps the scorer who reported the results of the game in which your described play occurred was correct. I have looked in (1) NFHS 2010 High School Baseball Rules by Topic: Rules, Caseplays, Rationales Linked (2) NFHS 2010 High School Baseball Rules Simplified & Illustrated (3) NFHS 2010 Baseball Rules Book and (4) NFHS 2010 Baseball Case Book. I saw no other books available from the NFHS. I also have an older version of the Official's manual but could not find it. What is the name of the book which you believe supports your position?

Remember, you always have to go back to "those little black books."

Hey Guys:

I have one from last night that I have never seen:

Runner on 1B, stealing on the pitch, batter hits a line drive that hits the umpire (standing behind the pitcher on the 2B side) in the groin....yeah, in the groin...the ball stops next to the umpire in the infield...the umpire keels over in pain...in frustration, he picks up the ball and throws it up in the air...as infielders are converging on the play.

After a 5-10 minute stoppage of play, the batter is awarded 1B, runner stays at 2B. The umpire did finish the game.

How about that one???

That made me chuckle.

quote:

"any fielder who makes a wild throw in attempting to complete a double play or triple play, unless such wild throw enables any runner to advance beyond the base such runner would have reached had the throw not been wild."

Would the runner have reached 1st if the throw had not been wild? If not, then I would think you could call it an error...

While our score keeper has been pretty much dead on with what I would have put down, I've met a few who would probably give a kid a .750 OBP because he was the courtesy runner for the catcher 75% of the time!

Turntwo,

As crazy as it seems if a Batter/Runner reaches 1st base but does not advance beyond 1st on the back end of a DP because of a wide or high throw and no runners advance there is no error on the play even if he'd have been out by 3 steps.

If the 3B just picked up the grouder and threw directly to 1st and the play at 1st was exactly the same it's an E-5.

The best explanation I ever got was that because there was an out recorded and runners did not advance errors are not charged.

The Pinch runner comment IS funny.

luv baseball and midlo dad,

Charlie Brown and Lucy will be teaching Tuesday's class. (Check out Sunday's edition of Classic Peanuts).