Stats from 14U-AAU Div-2 Nationals

My son was the catcher for the North Bay Xtreme who came in second place in Orlando. He caught 8 of the 9 games and am curious if you happend to have timed him. I haven't yet timed his pop-time and would be interested in how he compared.

Didn't time him in the Championship game but had him earlier in the week on 2 throws.

1 was in the dirt 2.69
1 was up and away 2.59

My notes said he moves too far to his left with his footwork so he looses some time there. He most likely has his right foot replacing his left foot when he pivots. The right foot should only slide half way to the right foot, then the hips turn.

Were the kids with the best times throwing on brute arm strength, or did they have quick releases? Or both?

All 3 of the boys under 2.3 had great feet and hands as well as good inflight speed.

The 2 under 2.3 had inflight speeds of 68-71mph and the kid under 2.19 has an incredible release and was in the 72-74MPH inflight

was this 60/90 or 54/80?

Catching Coach,

I took a look at your web site and there is lots of good information. I don't think I have ever before heard or seen in any video to first only slide your right foot half way to your left foot. Interesting. He has been using a jump-turn technique and I believe he hasn't been getting any leg drive with and as you noted is drifting left.

This will be something new to work with in the winter. This has been a good season that began way back in January.

This was a 60/90 tournament.

Old Catch,

To clarify, the term "slide to the left" has been confused before. It is a slide when done in slow motion in a training envirornment. When done at full speed it truely is a jump-pivot. However I have my catchers make the pivot much tighter and quicker by having the right foot landing at the mid-point between the starting point of the 2 feet. When the left foot makes contact, the hips are turned, and the left hip is pointed directly at 2nd.

Also if he is not getting any drive then I suspect if you check you will find his right foot is actually hitting the ground behind where it was. His weight then all shifts back to the back leg and the throw becomes all arm.

Check the next time he throws and see. The right foot should not land behind the left foot but on the same plane.

Have I confused you now???

Not at all. Beforehand, it was sounding like two steps and I was having a hard time seeing it as beeing quicker.

Thanks.

If you want to be the best you can be you don't move the right foot.

Lamber and I have disagreed on this topic before. The technique he supports I call "load and throw". The player shifts all weight to right leg as they rotate hips towards 2nd and throw.

Keeping in mind this post relates to Pre-High School players, I feel this technique relys to much on arm strengh and not enough on the power generated by the legs. For young players they tend to over shift their weight to the right leg causing the right shoulder to drop. This makes the throw go high.

For Pre-High school kids that are being discussed in this post I would always reccomend the jump pivot technique.

Catching Coach,

We are fortunate to have some great C instructors in this area and they advocate the same method you describe. I do not know of a catching coach on the east coast who advises kids to use the "load & throw" method. Not saying it is wrong, but it takes a great deal of arm strength to use.

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I feel this technique relys too much on arm strengh and not enough on the power generated by the legs. For young players they tend to over shift their weight to the right leg causing the right shoulder to drop.

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You simply don't understand the technique. This is a totally inaccurate statement. The technique forces a catcher to use his body to its maximum. And it is the quickest of all releases by a significant margin. Not until you understand how to execute it will you understand the benefit. Although very usable by all "arm strengths" this technique is especially effective for those youngsters which lack arm strength.

And, secondly, the legs do not provide power in any throw by any player including pitchers. They stablilize the power supply which is the pelvis. Power is generated from the center and moves outward. It is not generated by the legs and subsequently moved upward. My catching technique has the best use of the pelvis in terms of acquiring power for arm strength as well as for having a quick release.

Finally, what happens to a "jump-pivot" cathcer when he doesn't do it correctly? You really aren't very convincing when you compare a poorly executed "load and throw" to a properly executed "jump-pivot"?

Lamber,

I'm curious, how many students do you teach this technique to each year in the 8-10 yr old age range??

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No students age 8-10??? Well that would explain why you haven't seen the things I have seen in the past 12 months. I've had 124 catchers in that age group that take at least 1 camp or clinic from me.

Most of the kids at that age come to my camps doing a very nice crow hop throw to 2nd. Some of the 8and 9's even employ the double-crowhop technique to get the ball all the way down 85 feet to 2nd.

If I had them not move their right foot, they will nearly all shift all their weight to the right leg, drop their right shoulder down too far, and chuck the ball into center field, or right into the ground in front of the pitcher.

By using the jump pivot the young kids can easily keep their weight better balanced and keep their shoulders level. This enables even the youngest of the kids to get the ball on a straight flight path to 2nd.

One other question?? Which MLB players use the technique you prefer. Many will use a jab step to the right for a pitch away to the backhand. But I can't think of any that keep the right foot planted for other pitch locations. Would love to know who does so I can try and get some clips.

And now, ladies and gentlemen, the effectiveness of 8-10 yr olds detemines what technique is best.......please!

If I had access to 8-10 yr olds I would teach them to have fun.

But, I would also show them how to throw without a crow hop. In other words, learn how to use the pelvis. The crow hop is a crutch. It is a way of creating momentum that is not necessary. When you learn how to create momentum without the crow hop then and only then will your release be as quick as it can be.

Catching Coach, your problem is you are putting a band aid on a throwing problem by asking them to jump pivot.

I'll be 50 years old in Nov. I was asked to play fastpitch softball this summer on a team that had lost players due to job transfers, quitting etc. It's a very competitive travel league meaning the winner of the league gets an automatic birth to the World Tournament.

The league is full of 25-35 year olds in their prime. Tremendous speed, arms, bats etc. Quite an amazing game, actually.

There is one team with 3 players that are great base stealers. They lead the league and are almost never thrown out by the top league catchers with very good arms.

We've played the team 3 times and I'm 4 for 6 in throwing them out. On one of the failures, the ball hit the base and went into centerfield before the ss could get there. (Bunt situations which put much pressure on infielders in this game). The other I hit the ss side of the base.

I have a torn rotator cuff in my throwing arm. I can't throw without tremendous pain unless I short arm the ball. (keep elbow down) Yet, my pelvis works fine. The power and leverage I create with my body allow a quick release. It also allows a strong throw (if you're capable).

Again, I don't believe you know proper lower body usage in throwing mechanics and how the body is used. Your theory that the load and throw will cause too much weight back illustrates you don't know how to teach it. In fact, you have to learn to carry the center forward as the weight shifts back. Keeps the shoulder from dropping.

I have a question for you.

With the best release time you have ever seen (your 10' throw/release drill) how much velocity does the ball have to have to be able to throw out runners consistently? Say college level.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lamber:
And now, ladies and gentlemen, the effectiveness of 8-10 yr olds detemines what technique is best.......please!


The league is full of 25-35 year olds in their prime. Tremendous speed, arms, bats etc...There is one team with 3 players that are great base stealers. They lead the league and are almost never thrown out by the top league catchers with very good arms...We've played the team 3 times and I'm 4 for 6 in throwing them out.[QUOTE]

Nahhhhhh! Let's use a 50 year old beer league softball player. That is a better example.

Lamber, which players in the MLB use your method?

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Originally posted by Lamber:
I have a question for you.

With the best release time you have ever seen (your 10' throw/release drill) how much velocity does the ball have to have to be able to throw out runners consistently? Say college level.

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Have timed many college catchers and have found that assuming the throws are accurate many runners were thrown out with throws in the 1.95-2.05. Saw Veritek throw out a number 2 hitter last year with a 2.01 at a Red Sox game. There is a myth that MLB catchers are throwing under 1.85 every time they throw down. Not the case.

With that said, to answer your question, with a release time of less then .56, and an inflight MPH of 75mph, that will yield a throw right around 2.0

Obviously it all depends on runners jump and time to the plate for the pitcher.

To help us all understand why you feel so strong about the technique you support, don't forget to get us that list of MLB catchers that use this technique. Because from what you said in your original post...."If you want to be the best you can be you don't move the right foot" there are literally dozens of MLB catchers who must not want to be the best they can be. Please advise us of those that do!!!

redbird

I'll let someone else help you with the difference between an 8 yr old and a 50 yr old beer leaguer.

By the way, how old are you? Do you demonstrate to your kids in practice? Ever had a beer? And........do you still play?

Finally, you seem to proclaim an expertise in infield play. Why don't your second basemen jump-pivot when turning a dp? At least I hope they don't (on the routine dp).

CC

Most mlb catchers are not interested in having the quickest release they can have. Or else they'd change. They want to show their gun. And, I don't blame them. After all, if they throw out 25%-30% they still get to play. And, most can do that with their gun.

Ever heard of Thurman Munson?????????

Both of you should keep in mind that 9999 out of every 10,000 players you come in contact with won't be mlb players. They won't have the physical tools.

But, if they come in contact with me, I can help them be the best they can be at whatever level they max out.

Is .56 the best release time you've seen??????

And, do you know how many running steps is represented by .3 sec, .5 sec, 1.0 etc?

Have you ever considered timing the release by timing glove pop to arm swoosh sound? Probably not necessary because not much time is used in hitting a screen 10-15 feet away.

Is .56 the best release time you've seen??????

No, in my database I have 24 catchers that throw .51-.54

I have 3 that have thrown at least 4 throws at .50.

I have one player that routinely throws .50-.52 and has numerous throws .48-.49

He's the fastest I have ever times with my drill. Have now timed over 600 catchers ages 9-27 in the past 5 years. Interesting database.


And, do you know how many running steps is represented by .3 sec, .5 sec, 1.0 etc?

For a 5ft-7" player?? or a 6ft 1" player. Stride lengh differences will make that tough to nail down real accurately.

I believe it was Lou Brock who used to know exactly how many steps it was from first to second while stealing.

What I find important about that is I knew the line (imaginery) that the runner could not be to before I had released the ball or I wouldn't get him. Obviously it varies a little with the speed of the runner, but not by as much as you might think.

Most throw outs at second base are bang bang plays. I knew if I released the ball before the runner came to the imaginery line (and the throw was accurate, and the fielder fielded it) that he had no chance. Out by at least a step. If he was on the line, it would be bang bang. If he was passed the line he had to be average speed or less or he was safe.

I always like talking to my catchers about how many runner steps his particular movement problem was costing him.

Example (I don't know real steal times) but if the runner took 20 steps (I forget Lou Brocks number) as he stole from first to second and he got there in 4 seconds, (I realize these aren't accurate, just using them as an example) then each step was equal to .2 seconds. Then, if I was successful in reducing his release time and therefore his pop time by .2, he knows he just saved a runner step. Which is HUGE. All those bang bang plays that have been safe are now out.

This was also very beneficial to me in that having the ball released before the runner got to that line was WAY more important than the speed of the throw.

So, considering the infinite number of positions you get into in handling tough pitches, I always knew that even if the throw had a little less on it, having released it before the runner crossed the line was most important.

Therefore, nothing is more important than that quick release. Sometimes you also get to showcase that arm. But everytime you get to showcase that release.

Lamber,

I am old enough to drink beer. No, I do not play anymore. I spend my time teaching the game to kids from 6-19. I demonstarte all the time to kids. I have never played softball. To me, it is a sport for guys who cannot play baseball.

As for the DP turn, we have gone down this road before. It is a totally different action.

To say most MLB catchers are not interested in having the quickest release is ludicrous! I have watched pro catchers work for hours on simple glove transfer drills and shortening arm actions. They spend even more time on footwork. (and not one throws the way you mention). Find any catchers who throw the way you describe?

Why is it that you are full of questions but not answers?

FYI, a good base stealer takes 13-17 steps to steal 2B, usually covering the distance in 3.0-3.5 seconds.

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Originally posted by redbird5:
Lamber,

As for the DP turn, we have gone down this road before. It is a totally different action.

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So, I guess you were a catcher at one time??

Yes, I was.

What I meant in your above quote is that you and I have previously discussed this example at length.

A picture is worth a 1000 words. What videos, or other instructional materials do you guys recommend???

CC- did u get a read on the kid from south carolina diamondbacks? what teams did the kids with the best realese play on?

This topic has been fascinating reading. I have an 11u catcher. He could use a little help getting rid of the ball faster. My problem is I am having a hard time seeing in my head the differences being discussed here. Like TBall says, do you have a suggestion of where to turn to "see" what is being debated?

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Originally posted by VBaseball31:
CC- did u get a read on the kid from south carolina diamondbacks? what teams did the kids with the best realese play on?

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VBaseball, the kid that played in the championship for the SC team was one of the kids that threw under 2.35. He blocked fastballs well, but needs to attack curveballs a little bit more. His receiving was good, soft hands, quiet body. Does tend to make the pitch to the backhand side look farther off the plate then it was.

The kid that threw under 2.19 had a 2.16 and 2.18. He has thrown as fast as 2.06 in a game. He plays for Team New England. Yes that would be the same Team New England that I was the assistant coach for....and yes that young man is also my son. He pitched, caught and played SS at that tournement. Really enjoyed his time there. His 21 yr old brother heads for South Carolina MOnday as a transfer student for a shot at D-1 ball. You guess it....he catches too.

Catcher Coach- Where there any New HAmpshire teams at that tournament? If so, did you get any of their times. Just curious

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Originally posted by Blue22:
Catcher Coach- Where there any New HAmpshire teams at that tournament? If so, did you get any of their times. Just curious

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The Vipers were there. Have only timed one of their players. Game situation was in the 2.5-2.55 range if I recall.

Ah yes.......we were there too. Although my son was a catcher too, he played first with a few exceptions. Team was called the Indiana prospects. Catcher was wering either blue or blk. If it was black then that was my kid. either yellow jerseys or pinstripes. Team did not so well but my kid hit the ball well. Probably around .450 closer to 500 on base. He loved the experience. But that pitcher from one of the Carolinas(lefty) was too much for us. His first travel ball experience and he'd do it again in a second.

Indplsfreshman,

Been on vacation so I didn't see your post. I know that lefty from South Carolina well....gave us fits.....we didn't do well against him.

Don't think I saw your team play though. Sorry I missed you. My son thought it was a great experience too.