Let's be honest, take off the blinders, and see where the HSBBW family sits on a few questions
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I'm done voting rz...could you please cinch these up in the back for me for?
I'm done voting rz...could you please cinch these up in the back for me for?
rz,
verify using ped's to whom? He would tell me if a kid was using but not a coach.
verify using ped's to whom? He would tell me if a kid was using but not a coach.
I checked yes for holding the pitcher doctoring the baseball in the same regard as a ped user, but I would like to vote that way with an explanation. I would hold him in the same regard in that both are cheating. The problem created by the ball "doctorer" is a lot easier to fix, however. An ejection and a new ball placed into play immediately rectifies that situation. Also the guy can pitch the next day, and if he doesn't doctor the ball again he's clean. The ped issue is harder to clean up and much more time consuming.
quote:Originally posted by fillsfan:
rz,
verify using ped's to whom? He would tell me if a kid was using but not a coach.
Good point fillsfan. You can't change the wording without affecting the poll. It should have read
Would your son, if asked by an organization, college, or HS, verify the knowledge that a close teammate was using PED's?
They tell mom/dad everything.....don't they?
We can think we know our kids, but who knows? Therefore while I believe my son wouldn't take steroids based on his comments, who knows in the future.
The steroids in the high school issue came up yesterday in conversation. My son told me who's using them after asking I not pass on the information. I have to keep his trust. If the parents of these kids can't see it, it's on them. The one time I tried to help out a kid's situation regarding drinking and drugs the parent got ticked off at me.
At the high school level my son isn't threatened by being beat out for a spot in the lineup over steroids. If he plays D1 college ball, maybe he'll see things differently.
The steroids in the high school issue came up yesterday in conversation. My son told me who's using them after asking I not pass on the information. I have to keep his trust. If the parents of these kids can't see it, it's on them. The one time I tried to help out a kid's situation regarding drinking and drugs the parent got ticked off at me.
At the high school level my son isn't threatened by being beat out for a spot in the lineup over steroids. If he plays D1 college ball, maybe he'll see things differently.
I don't know.
To me cheating is cheating.
Whether it's steroids, doctoring a ball, or using a corked bat...
They are all trying to get the best end results without having done it the legitimate way, hard work, and above board way.
Cheat
cheat
Pronunciation: \ˈchēt\
Function: verb
Etymology: cheat
Date: 1590
transitive verb
1: to deprive of something valuable by the use of deceit or fraud
2: to influence or lead by deceit, trick, or artifice
3: to elude or thwart by or as if by outwitting <cheat death>
intransitive verb
1 a: to practice fraud or trickery b: to violate rules dishonestly <cheat at cards> <cheating on a test>
To me cheating is cheating.
Whether it's steroids, doctoring a ball, or using a corked bat...
They are all trying to get the best end results without having done it the legitimate way, hard work, and above board way.
Cheat
cheat
Pronunciation: \ˈchēt\
Function: verb
Etymology: cheat
Date: 1590
transitive verb
1: to deprive of something valuable by the use of deceit or fraud
2: to influence or lead by deceit, trick, or artifice
3: to elude or thwart by or as if by outwitting <cheat death>
intransitive verb
1 a: to practice fraud or trickery b: to violate rules dishonestly <cheat at cards> <cheating on a test>
quote:Originally posted by Lefty's Dad:
The problem created by the ball "doctorer" is a lot easier to fix, however. An ejection and a new ball placed into play immediately rectifies that situation.
Gaylord Perry did it for 21+ years, others have also done it since baseball inception, how many pitches did they make for big strikes or big outs that were not detected and affected the outcome of the game. IMHO in the baseball world I see it as just as offending as steroids, a cheat is a cheat. I think people are looking at the physical specimen instead of the all the pieces that make up the events of the game.
I've read the new "toy of choice" for many pitchers is SFP50 sun screen.
A cream is a cream
IMO, When the question of use of peds comes into play, it's hard to say who would or would not take them. But that being said, money is and has been the a major reason for players to use them. The HS player to get a scholarship to pay for college, the minor league player to get better stats to move up as quickly as he can, the major league player to improve his stats so he can start making the big bucks.
Steroids is just the newer aid for players to raise above the others or keep up. In the 60's 70's and early 80's it was greenies, cross tops, whites and such to keep them focused and at the top of there game.
With the type of money that being thrown around, there will always be a new and undetectable "helper"(see HGH) for any player who wishes to "up his game" no matter which sport he or she plays.
As Jeff Kent (who I still don't like) once said, "Its only a game, enjoy the game"
Steroids is just the newer aid for players to raise above the others or keep up. In the 60's 70's and early 80's it was greenies, cross tops, whites and such to keep them focused and at the top of there game.
With the type of money that being thrown around, there will always be a new and undetectable "helper"(see HGH) for any player who wishes to "up his game" no matter which sport he or she plays.
As Jeff Kent (who I still don't like) once said, "Its only a game, enjoy the game"
It prevents the ball from getting sunburn.quote:I've read the new "toy of choice" for many pitchers is SFP50 sun screen
ok, here goes. while it is illegal.and banned by mlb. i don't consider it cheating.i don't know of anyone that has taken steroids and just got better. for every barry bonds there are guy's you'll never hear about. maybe they were cheated. one thing i'll never understand about the players called out. they were all good before the juice. so why.
1)you have to work hard to get any result.
2)taking them and getting bigger,doesn't mean you'll hit a 90 mph fastball.
3) taking them won't make you throw 90.
4) taking won't help you field any better.
i watched a steroid show on the history channel.(i really need to get work). long term use of steroids can/will cause serious damage,to your arteries. liver,kidney's. for the life of me i don't know why people would take them.
85% of the american people that take them, do so to have "beach bodies". just to look good is no reason to take steroids. maybe life saving would be a good reason.
so while i have no use for them, and i don't understand taking a chance with your life. i don't consider it cheating, mainley because just taking them does nothing. there is still a lot of work to get there.
one thing i'll never understand about the players called out. they were all good before the juice. so why.1)you have to work hard to get any result.
2)taking them and getting bigger,doesn't mean you'll hit a 90 mph fastball.
3) taking them won't make you throw 90.
4) taking won't help you field any better.
i watched a steroid show on the history channel.(i really need to get work). long term use of steroids can/will cause serious damage,to your arteries. liver,kidney's. for the life of me i don't know why people would take them.
85% of the american people that take them, do so to have "beach bodies". just to look good is no reason to take steroids. maybe life saving would be a good reason.
so while i have no use for them, and i don't understand taking a chance with your life. i don't consider it cheating, mainley because just taking them does nothing. there is still a lot of work to get there.
Good points 20dad.
Last summer I had this discussion with son when he had to go to STL to see the team surgeon. He had been suffering with the same issue since his draft season and becoming frustrated with losds of rehab and not feeling better. Although well taken care of, I am wondering if a lot of this has to do with lack of being taken care of properly years ago when players were injured. This especailly holds true for pitchers, so I would imagine there were LOTS of pitchers who used, that we don't know about. That doesn't make it right or wrong but just a perception of WHY it became so prevelent, injuries. How many players used to fight off injury and how many to break records?
Did Arod use before or after his deal with Texas? And didn't he say it was after an injury? I can just imagine how difficult it may be for a young first pick out of HS, to try to live up to expectatations as an organizations top prospect. Not making any excuses, but in my experience I saw how frustrated mine had become and at this point, steroids are NOT an option with strict penalties and the stigma that goes along with it. Plus, lot more are educated as to the health affects that may be suffered later on, I doubt half of them knew that what they were taking could kill them later on.
So I will honestly say, since back then it was overlooked and with no disclosure, will honestly say I have no clue what he would do. I do know that he would NEVER rat on another player, ever. That's why this thing got out of control, no one told on anyone, you just don't do that, even when you know it's happening.
Does a young player think he is cheating if only trying to get healthier. Is an older more experienced player not hitting the numbers he wants take something to get an edge over everyone else cheating?
Where do you draw the line in who cheated and who didn't. This is where my dilemma lies.
Last summer I had this discussion with son when he had to go to STL to see the team surgeon. He had been suffering with the same issue since his draft season and becoming frustrated with losds of rehab and not feeling better. Although well taken care of, I am wondering if a lot of this has to do with lack of being taken care of properly years ago when players were injured. This especailly holds true for pitchers, so I would imagine there were LOTS of pitchers who used, that we don't know about. That doesn't make it right or wrong but just a perception of WHY it became so prevelent, injuries. How many players used to fight off injury and how many to break records?
Did Arod use before or after his deal with Texas? And didn't he say it was after an injury? I can just imagine how difficult it may be for a young first pick out of HS, to try to live up to expectatations as an organizations top prospect. Not making any excuses, but in my experience I saw how frustrated mine had become and at this point, steroids are NOT an option with strict penalties and the stigma that goes along with it. Plus, lot more are educated as to the health affects that may be suffered later on, I doubt half of them knew that what they were taking could kill them later on.
So I will honestly say, since back then it was overlooked and with no disclosure, will honestly say I have no clue what he would do. I do know that he would NEVER rat on another player, ever. That's why this thing got out of control, no one told on anyone, you just don't do that, even when you know it's happening.
Does a young player think he is cheating if only trying to get healthier. Is an older more experienced player not hitting the numbers he wants take something to get an edge over everyone else cheating?
Where do you draw the line in who cheated and who didn't. This is where my dilemma lies.
quote:i don't know of anyone that has taken steroids and just got better.
At the risk of sounding flip, I mention a few names like Bonds, McWire, Clemens, Petitte, Sosa, Pudge Rodriguez, Caminiti, Canseco and Tejeda.
Cammy acknowledged roids were directly responsible for his MVP award. I could go on needlessly. I'll leave it at that.
I think players caught should be banned as a first offense.
Steroids were described in several articles as having the effect of going through puberty again.
It also mentioned the wrong things growing and the wrong things shrinking?
"If you use this cream, it'll get bigger. Then why aren't my hands getting bigger too?"
It also mentioned the wrong things growing and the wrong things shrinking?
"If you use this cream, it'll get bigger. Then why aren't my hands getting bigger too?"
quote:Posted February 11, 2009 07:11 PM Hide Post
quote:
i don't know of anyone that has taken steroids and just got better.
At the risk of sounding flip, I mention a few names like Bonds, McWire, Clemens, Petitte, Sosa, Pudge Rodriguez, Caminiti, Canseco and Tejeda.
Cammy acknowledged roids were directly responsible
dad04
just taking steroids will do nothing, you need to work very hard to get bigger and stronger. you can't take them and sit around watching tv, if it worked that way i might take them.
os
absolutely hilarious
quote:dad04
just taking steroids will do nothing, you need to work very hard to get bigger and stronger. you can't take them and sit around watching tv, if it worked that way i might take them.
Really? How much working very hard do beef cattle do to get bigger and stronger on steroids? They stand around in a field or feed lot and eat. They are shot with roids for a reason.
beef cattle,horse's. in my experience were given the steroid equipoise, to help with their activity level. this is also easily found through a vet. so it is was common in gym's.
when i was much younger.........well, i found things out.
i think i could pick up a beef cow. but just taking steroids don't make you any bigger or better.
when i was much younger.........well, i found things out.
i think i could pick up a beef cow. but just taking steroids don't make you any bigger or better.
You didn't say better. You said bigger-stronger. Roids will do bigger stronger without lifting a finger.
They may not make you better but they let your body recover faster so you are able to work longer and harder than someone who isn't.
How many swings can you take in a day with and without steroids? How much longer can you stay in the gym?
Then when players who are on it start see results what does that do for their confidence?
How many swings can you take in a day with and without steroids? How much longer can you stay in the gym?
Then when players who are on it start see results what does that do for their confidence?
dad04
i'll agree to disagree. but do a little research.
they won't do a thing for you with out hard work. not bigger,stronger,better, it just isn't that easy. nothing is, is it? how much stronger do you think you'll get hitting the remote button?
i feel i need to say ,i'm not an advocate of steroids in any way.
i'll agree to disagree. but do a little research.
they won't do a thing for you with out hard work. not bigger,stronger,better, it just isn't that easy. nothing is, is it? how much stronger do you think you'll get hitting the remote button?
i feel i need to say ,i'm not an advocate of steroids in any way.
20dad forgive me. Son in pro ball?
Was wondering.
How many of you feed your young teens cows and chickens on steroids?
How many of you feed your young teens cows and chickens on steroids?
20dad forgive me. Son in pro ball?
dad
why do you ask?
dad
why do you ask?
It's a yes or no q.
yes it is.............and yes i do. that really has nothing to do with my opinion.
Your opinion is consistent with vast majority of pro player family, however non-relative it is. That isn't a bad thing. I was just curious. That is why I asked. We might agree if I was in your shoes.
Another question...
Steroids illegal for what reason?
A. Dangerous health risk
B. Enhance performance
C. Both
If the answer is anything other than A, what happens when a safe drug (with odd side effects ie. all your hair falls out), is invented that enhances "athletic" performance? Should it be legalized? Will all baseball players be bald?
I know that might sound like a joke, but isn't almost anything possible.
I certainly don't want to come off condoning the use of any drugs.
Steroids were illegal and they enhanced performance. Just blaming the players seems stupid. Did hall of fame managers know what was going on? How about hall of fame owners and other executives, etc. Geez, everyone knew what was going on except them? I think there are a lot of people that should be sharing the blame.
It would be hard to find any steroid advocates these days, but what about 10 even 5 years ago?
I bet in the old days all those gladiators would have used steroids if they had been available. At least those gladiators who lived the longest. (also known as the gladiators who were the most successful) This is not condoning the use of steroids, just a comment regarding our history.
Everyone here (including me) is against steroids, but I think we sometimes make those who are found guilty into sinister figures. One more question... Would you prefer your neighbor was...
A. A Thief
B. A Child Molester
C. A Wife Beater
D. A Former Steroid User
Maybe we could ask Ahnold's neighbors.
Steroids illegal for what reason?
A. Dangerous health risk
B. Enhance performance
C. Both
If the answer is anything other than A, what happens when a safe drug (with odd side effects ie. all your hair falls out), is invented that enhances "athletic" performance? Should it be legalized? Will all baseball players be bald?
I know that might sound like a joke, but isn't almost anything possible.
I certainly don't want to come off condoning the use of any drugs.
Steroids were illegal and they enhanced performance. Just blaming the players seems stupid. Did hall of fame managers know what was going on? How about hall of fame owners and other executives, etc. Geez, everyone knew what was going on except them? I think there are a lot of people that should be sharing the blame.
It would be hard to find any steroid advocates these days, but what about 10 even 5 years ago?
I bet in the old days all those gladiators would have used steroids if they had been available. At least those gladiators who lived the longest. (also known as the gladiators who were the most successful) This is not condoning the use of steroids, just a comment regarding our history.
Everyone here (including me) is against steroids, but I think we sometimes make those who are found guilty into sinister figures. One more question... Would you prefer your neighbor was...
A. A Thief
B. A Child Molester
C. A Wife Beater
D. A Former Steroid User
Maybe we could ask Ahnold's neighbors.
really. that's kind of interesting. i thought i was all alone in my thinking. my wife is wrong. 
my opinions come from my own experience, from along time ago. as i said earlier 85% of steroid use is guy's wanting to beef up. having made a living with my back and that being the surroundings i was exposed to. it was common for guy's to use this stuff. and it does make you very .........edgy. maybe barry and roger did use.
my opinions come from my own experience, from along time ago. as i said earlier 85% of steroid use is guy's wanting to beef up. having made a living with my back and that being the surroundings i was exposed to. it was common for guy's to use this stuff. and it does make you very .........edgy. maybe barry and roger did use.
i know this is off track a little. the army wondered how the germans could march all night then fight all day. for a week at a time. speed. i was surprised how many drug's came from war. i may be mistaken but i think steroids got there start in germany as well.
the tings you learn. huh.
the tings you learn. huh.
PGstaff,
I am having problems with your post.
Yes, I have a very good friend who is impacted by HIV. It is quite real.
I worked with him from 1975 to 1993. In 1993, I left that firm. At that time, he finally confided that he was HIV positive, had been for 7 or so years, and was so concerned about the impact on his work situation he kept it quiet.
To suggest that the longer term effects of steroids are open to question and use HIV as an analogy leaves me both concerned and troubled..
To suggest that medical science concerns about the use of steroids could all be wrong leaves me speechless.
I am really surprised.
What if one young baseball player develops liver tumors because of the use of steroids? Isn't that one too many?
What if one young baseball player uses steroids and, rather than cancer, becomes depressed and commits suicide? Isn't that one too many?
I think you will agree it is. In fact, I know you will!!!
I am very sorry. Within the last two years we had posts about the high school player in Dallas, the young man in Northern CA. Both committed suicide. Both were baseball players. Both were admitted steroid users. Cause/effect, we won't decide here, but is any risk worthwhile?
I am not for blaming players. The silence of Bud and his $18,000,000 salary made on the backs of these players is pretty repugnant. MLB and its owners knew, made money and looked the other way.
MLB ownership...many are right there with Wall Street in my opinion. They are happy to keep quiet, they are content to let the players and union spin in the wind. Many in ownership had to know and didn't care because they were/are making record profits on the backs of these players.
But let's not in any way trivialize steroid use or HIV as a severe disease that impacts some of our friends, in terrible ways. While my friend is still alive, the medicines to suppress his condition have left his face and bone structure distorted, his skin thickened and leather like.... and his life very different.
HIV disease is real.
I have no doubt the same is true for steroids, whether it be suicide or cancer..or other issues.
I am having problems with your post.
Yes, I have a very good friend who is impacted by HIV. It is quite real.
I worked with him from 1975 to 1993. In 1993, I left that firm. At that time, he finally confided that he was HIV positive, had been for 7 or so years, and was so concerned about the impact on his work situation he kept it quiet.
To suggest that the longer term effects of steroids are open to question and use HIV as an analogy leaves me both concerned and troubled..
To suggest that medical science concerns about the use of steroids could all be wrong leaves me speechless.
I am really surprised.
What if one young baseball player develops liver tumors because of the use of steroids? Isn't that one too many?
What if one young baseball player uses steroids and, rather than cancer, becomes depressed and commits suicide? Isn't that one too many?
I think you will agree it is. In fact, I know you will!!!
I am very sorry. Within the last two years we had posts about the high school player in Dallas, the young man in Northern CA. Both committed suicide. Both were baseball players. Both were admitted steroid users. Cause/effect, we won't decide here, but is any risk worthwhile?
I am not for blaming players. The silence of Bud and his $18,000,000 salary made on the backs of these players is pretty repugnant. MLB and its owners knew, made money and looked the other way.
MLB ownership...many are right there with Wall Street in my opinion. They are happy to keep quiet, they are content to let the players and union spin in the wind. Many in ownership had to know and didn't care because they were/are making record profits on the backs of these players.
But let's not in any way trivialize steroid use or HIV as a severe disease that impacts some of our friends, in terrible ways. While my friend is still alive, the medicines to suppress his condition have left his face and bone structure distorted, his skin thickened and leather like.... and his life very different.
HIV disease is real.
I have no doubt the same is true for steroids, whether it be suicide or cancer..or other issues.
Seeing some grey areas pop up in this thread that are....strange.
If certain appropriate steroids are prescribed for a medical condition (to get healthier) that's a legal use of the drug. To self-medicate is not a legal use of the drug. If it were appropriate for the condition....a doctor would have prescribed it.
If controlled substances are used to enhance performance, that is illegal. So...it's illegal but not cheating? Okay.....
With or without steroids, a ballplayer has to work hard to be good, so the 'working hard' bit is simply stating the obvious. But when the performance is enhanced (hence PED), that would be the cheating part.
Yes, you have to be able to hit the 97 mph fb. But are you hitting it to the warning track where that nice OFer is waiting for it or into the sixth row? No, steroids don't make you field or pitch better (though perhaps pitch harder), but they make you recover and stay on top of your game longer when the straight guys are wearing down. They give an unnatural advantage.
Now think about the impact of those enhancements.
Why is Pete Rose banned from baseball? Because he bet on the game. Why is it against the rules of baseball for players and staff to bet on the games? Because it could impact the outcome of the game. (see Black Sox)
Steroids impact the outcome of games.
Let me repeat that: Steroids impact the outcome of games.
Players aren't as affected by the natural wear and tear of the season. Balls go over the fence that wouldn't "unassisted".
This is why it is cheating.
If certain appropriate steroids are prescribed for a medical condition (to get healthier) that's a legal use of the drug. To self-medicate is not a legal use of the drug. If it were appropriate for the condition....a doctor would have prescribed it.
If controlled substances are used to enhance performance, that is illegal. So...it's illegal but not cheating?
With or without steroids, a ballplayer has to work hard to be good, so the 'working hard' bit is simply stating the obvious. But when the performance is enhanced (hence PED), that would be the cheating part.
Yes, you have to be able to hit the 97 mph fb. But are you hitting it to the warning track where that nice OFer is waiting for it or into the sixth row? No, steroids don't make you field or pitch better (though perhaps pitch harder), but they make you recover and stay on top of your game longer when the straight guys are wearing down. They give an unnatural advantage.
Now think about the impact of those enhancements.
Why is Pete Rose banned from baseball? Because he bet on the game. Why is it against the rules of baseball for players and staff to bet on the games? Because it could impact the outcome of the game. (see Black Sox)
Steroids impact the outcome of games.
Let me repeat that: Steroids impact the outcome of games.
Players aren't as affected by the natural wear and tear of the season. Balls go over the fence that wouldn't "unassisted".
This is why it is cheating.
infielddad,
Reading that post again, I have to agree it was a bad comparison. Think I will go back and edit it. Especially the part regarding AIDS. My point, as stupid as it might have been, was that between the experts and the media things can get crazy. I certainly didn’t mean to trivialize anything as serious as AIDS. I also do not want to trivialize the use of steroids or the Bird Flu either.
Guess I just find it difficult that we know so much. We are ready to condemn people who use steroids without really looking at the problem and finding a solution. If there is one thing I am sure of, it is that as long as there is athletic competition there will be people trying to gain an advantage. Whether that includes loaded bats, spit balls, bending the rules, using illegal supplements, etc. I respect those who can excel without "cheating", especially those who can reach the top without any illegal drugs or supplements.
Here is another question… Steroids were illegal, yet there was no penalty in baseball. Does anyone know of a person who has received any penalty for using steroids. Even now, those being charged and possibly penalized are being charged with perjury, not because they were using steroids or HGH. What other illegal drug charge can people get off of by simply admitting they used the drug? In this case there are people getting off even though they “supplied” the illegal substance. All they have to do is tell the truth and sell out those who they supplied it to.
If politicians really care about all of this why don’t they start sending all steroid users to jail? And isn’t there something wrong when the dealers are being used to locate the users. I always thought it was the other way around. Of course, that wouldn’t be as sensational, would it? What about… Barry we will keep this quiet… all you have to do is give us the person who is supplying this ****. You know, like the rest of the drug war is fought. Get rid of the suppliers and there will be no users. At least, penalize both. I really believe if Barry’s supplier had sold him out, he would have never gone to jail. Maybe I’m wrong… It sure wouldn’t be the first time. It’s obvious they want the players, the bigger the name the more they want them. The only good thing to come out of all this is that finally some people have been forced to change the rules. It took this to force the change… not the health of human beings, not the so called false records or cheating. It took ruining the lives and reputations of a bunch of people who are among the most competitive people in our society. People who might be willing to risk everything including their health to be successful or win a championship.
So I will edit the stupid things I’ve posted earlier and allow people to jump on these opinions. I’m sure there is plenty to jump on. I’m sure somehow someone will think I’m condoning the use of steroids. Truth is you can look at every steroid topic I’ve posted on and find that I feel the same way as the majority on here, maybe even more so. But if a topic has to have every post cutting down the players who have been found… it gets tiring. If we want to look deeply into this problem, it’s time to look at everything instead of focusing the blame on the most newsworthy items.
Are these guys criminals or are they victims? The old, he’s the scum of the earth thing, just gets kind of old. I really hope that someday everything will be peachy, but is that realistic? And here is something else I can’t stand… that is a player that would sell out his team mate to the public. I really don’t expect everyone to understand that kind of thinking. Yet, if it really takes that to end this problem, it’s probably a very good thing. I just believe this could have been (and should have been) dealt with much earlier by those who will never suffer and probably even profit from all of this.
There’s going to be lots of books!
I'll go back and edit this one too, if needed. Pretty sure there's a good chance I said something stupid again.
Reading that post again, I have to agree it was a bad comparison. Think I will go back and edit it. Especially the part regarding AIDS. My point, as stupid as it might have been, was that between the experts and the media things can get crazy. I certainly didn’t mean to trivialize anything as serious as AIDS. I also do not want to trivialize the use of steroids or the Bird Flu either.
Guess I just find it difficult that we know so much. We are ready to condemn people who use steroids without really looking at the problem and finding a solution. If there is one thing I am sure of, it is that as long as there is athletic competition there will be people trying to gain an advantage. Whether that includes loaded bats, spit balls, bending the rules, using illegal supplements, etc. I respect those who can excel without "cheating", especially those who can reach the top without any illegal drugs or supplements.
Here is another question… Steroids were illegal, yet there was no penalty in baseball. Does anyone know of a person who has received any penalty for using steroids. Even now, those being charged and possibly penalized are being charged with perjury, not because they were using steroids or HGH. What other illegal drug charge can people get off of by simply admitting they used the drug? In this case there are people getting off even though they “supplied” the illegal substance. All they have to do is tell the truth and sell out those who they supplied it to.
If politicians really care about all of this why don’t they start sending all steroid users to jail? And isn’t there something wrong when the dealers are being used to locate the users. I always thought it was the other way around. Of course, that wouldn’t be as sensational, would it? What about… Barry we will keep this quiet… all you have to do is give us the person who is supplying this ****. You know, like the rest of the drug war is fought. Get rid of the suppliers and there will be no users. At least, penalize both. I really believe if Barry’s supplier had sold him out, he would have never gone to jail. Maybe I’m wrong… It sure wouldn’t be the first time. It’s obvious they want the players, the bigger the name the more they want them. The only good thing to come out of all this is that finally some people have been forced to change the rules. It took this to force the change… not the health of human beings, not the so called false records or cheating. It took ruining the lives and reputations of a bunch of people who are among the most competitive people in our society. People who might be willing to risk everything including their health to be successful or win a championship.
So I will edit the stupid things I’ve posted earlier and allow people to jump on these opinions. I’m sure there is plenty to jump on. I’m sure somehow someone will think I’m condoning the use of steroids. Truth is you can look at every steroid topic I’ve posted on and find that I feel the same way as the majority on here, maybe even more so. But if a topic has to have every post cutting down the players who have been found… it gets tiring. If we want to look deeply into this problem, it’s time to look at everything instead of focusing the blame on the most newsworthy items.
Are these guys criminals or are they victims? The old, he’s the scum of the earth thing, just gets kind of old. I really hope that someday everything will be peachy, but is that realistic? And here is something else I can’t stand… that is a player that would sell out his team mate to the public. I really don’t expect everyone to understand that kind of thinking. Yet, if it really takes that to end this problem, it’s probably a very good thing. I just believe this could have been (and should have been) dealt with much earlier by those who will never suffer and probably even profit from all of this.
There’s going to be lots of books!
I'll go back and edit this one too, if needed. Pretty sure there's a good chance I said something stupid again.
quote:But if a topic has to have every post cutting down the players who have been found… it gets tiring. If we want to look deeply into this problem, it’s time to look at everything instead of focusing the blame on the most newsworthy items.
PG, thank you very much for the clarification. I really appreciate this post. The thought above is especially poignant. It is one with which I have very strong alliance.
On a message board, it can be tongue twisting to communicate all the negatives about steroids and cheating and still try to communicate that what we are seeing on TV and in the media are many of the symptoms. I do not feel the core issues are being touched.
There was some reference to them in the Mitchell report. Bud promised to investigate. Little has been done.
Bonds, quite rightly, is vilified.
Those who may well have known everything Bonds was doing, and ratified it, have been running to the bank. As justbaseball posted elsewhere, that is a major part of the real story.
The other part is about the players who did not cheat and had their careers end, because they didn't.
Well, PG, they're not victims. As they have done something that contravenes the law (using a controlled substance for something other than its intended medical purpose and not prescribed....even by a shady doctor), technically they're criminals.
This could be what is called a victimless crime. Should they see jail time? Well, if their inflated salaries pay for and maintain the facility.....
It's a conundrum. The admitted MLB coke users back in the day didn't see the inside of a jail either, IIRC. But some schmuck on the street who used did. I don't want to get into a whole discussion of Celebrities Preferred Treatment, but that's what happens.
But were there not "victims"? Every straight MLB player whose career was shortened because his body did wear naturally, did succumb to injuries, and who didn't get the massive payday, because the bell curve was warped due to the users artificially inflated numbers? Every fan who paid ever-increasing ticket and logo merchandise prices to support their inflated, incentive-laden salaries? Any minor league player who never saw a day of MLB because of their artificailly sustained careers? The hs and college players who somehow think they can inject their way to athletic stardom, and do irreparable damage to their bodies ans psyches?
This could be what is called a victimless crime. Should they see jail time? Well, if their inflated salaries pay for and maintain the facility....
.It's a conundrum. The admitted MLB coke users back in the day didn't see the inside of a jail either, IIRC. But some schmuck on the street who used did. I don't want to get into a whole discussion of Celebrities Preferred Treatment, but that's what happens.
But were there not "victims"? Every straight MLB player whose career was shortened because his body did wear naturally, did succumb to injuries, and who didn't get the massive payday, because the bell curve was warped due to the users artificially inflated numbers? Every fan who paid ever-increasing ticket and logo merchandise prices to support their inflated, incentive-laden salaries? Any minor league player who never saw a day of MLB because of their artificailly sustained careers? The hs and college players who somehow think they can inject their way to athletic stardom, and do irreparable damage to their bodies ans psyches?
O
yes, i realize i sound like a hypocrite. but that is my opinion. as a matter of fact my son thinks i'm wacked too. he's very much against it's use as well.
when most people think of steroids and baseball they think of Barry, Roger and the big names. those guy's impacted the out come of games without steroids. that's why i'm surprised they did it.
since 2005 around 215 milb players have the failed drug test. 30 mlb players in the same time. most of us would be hard pressed to name a half dozen. it isn't the cure.
i'm not sure steroids help you recover quickly,i think hgh does. but i'm not the expert there.
it's just my opinion, but i can see both side's very clearly.
i think i've beaten the horse enough.
yes, i realize i sound like a hypocrite. but that is my opinion. as a matter of fact my son thinks i'm wacked too. he's very much against it's use as well.
when most people think of steroids and baseball they think of Barry, Roger and the big names. those guy's impacted the out come of games without steroids. that's why i'm surprised they did it.
since 2005 around 215 milb players have the failed drug test. 30 mlb players in the same time. most of us would be hard pressed to name a half dozen. it isn't the cure.
i'm not sure steroids help you recover quickly,i think hgh does. but i'm not the expert there.
it's just my opinion, but i can see both side's very clearly.
i think i've beaten the horse enough.
I very much agree with PGStaff. EVERYONE knew what was going on, but in the end a lot of folks got a lot of money to keep it going on. All involved should pay for their blatant disreguard for the law. Are they going to search the emails of the top executives, owners, trainers, players to see who was complicit? No way! Sad thing to me is that when the first guy was offered steroids, is why he didn't punch the offerer in the nose and throw his butt out of the clubhouse.
Baseball is a grueling game when it is played 162 times per season at full speed and not many can endure a whole season without injury and fatigue. Are there other options to help the players perform at the top of their game for the entire season? Shorter games (7 innings), a few week long breaks during the course of the year, fewer games? Problem is, all of those things cost money and that is at the root of this problem.
Baseball is a grueling game when it is played 162 times per season at full speed and not many can endure a whole season without injury and fatigue. Are there other options to help the players perform at the top of their game for the entire season? Shorter games (7 innings), a few week long breaks during the course of the year, fewer games? Problem is, all of those things cost money and that is at the root of this problem.
Maybe life is not fair.
How do you think the (former) administrative assistants at Lehman Brothers feel as the bosses parachute to paradise? Steriods are just another scam. Players basically scammed other players benefitting themselves and the bosses. When was a scam ever fair? The entire premise of a scam is based on unfairness. I'm not sure why that is hard to grasp. I think most players are/were clean. Clean players generally hate PEDS and loathe users.
How do you think the (former) administrative assistants at Lehman Brothers feel as the bosses parachute to paradise? Steriods are just another scam. Players basically scammed other players benefitting themselves and the bosses. When was a scam ever fair? The entire premise of a scam is based on unfairness. I'm not sure why that is hard to grasp. I think most players are/were clean. Clean players generally hate PEDS and loathe users.
Dad04,
After reading your post, I believe you are right and this steroid thing is just a reflection of todays society. It's all about ME and NOW, and to hell with the future and the consequences. The thing that makes it worse though, is that the majority of the people could care less until it affects them or their own family in a negative way.
After reading your post, I believe you are right and this steroid thing is just a reflection of todays society. It's all about ME and NOW, and to hell with the future and the consequences. The thing that makes it worse though, is that the majority of the people could care less until it affects them or their own family in a negative way.
I heard this comment this morning from Roy Oswalt on his viewpoint about facing these players/stars who have used PED's over the years and I have to side with him....110%.
From ESPN.com
Rodriguez has 553 home runs, 1,606 RBIs and is widely recognized at the best player in the game. But Oswalt says A-Rod is simply one of many whose numbers should be stricken from the record.
"A-Rod's numbers shouldn't count for anything," Oswalt said in a phone interview with MLB.com. "I feel like he cheated me out of the game."
Oswalt said he feels that way about a lot of players who have been proven steroid users. He still gives former teammate Roger Clemens the benefit of the doubt, calling the allegations against him "suspicion," but if Clemens is indeed proven to have used performance-enhancing drugs, then his numbers, and all seven Cy Young Awards, need to be erased, according to Oswalt.
Oswalt also said he is bothered by the blanket of suspicion that has covered all players from his era because of the actions of those who have tested positive. Oswalt broke into the big leagues in 2001, won 19 games in 2002 and 20 in both 2004 and '05. He says he did so without the help of PEDs, and that he resents anyone who chose to cheat.
"It does bother me," Oswalt said. "Especially for the guys that went out there and did it on talent. We're always going to have a cloud on us, and that's not fair at all.
"The ones that have come out and admitted it, and are proven guilty, [their numbers] should not count. I've been cheated out of the game," Oswalt continued. "This is my ninth year, and I've done nothing to enhance my performance, other than work my butt off to get guys out. These guys [who took PEDs] have all the talent in the world. All-Star talent. And they put times two on it.
"I'm going out there with the ability God gave me. They have that ability, too, and they're putting something on top of it."
Oswalt said he considers Henry Aaron to be the all-time home run leader, despite Barry Bonds' official place at the top of the record books in that category.
Rodriguez admitted in an ESPN interview on Monday that he took performance-enhancing drugs during his three years with the Rangers from 2001-03. That irks Oswalt even more, he said, because the Astros faced him a handful of times during that period when the Astros played the Rangers during Interleague Play.
As a Ranger, Rodriguez was 3-for-5 vs. Oswalt with two doubles, one home run, three RBIs and two walks. Last year, as a Yankee, Rodriguez was hitless in two at-bats against Oswalt.
"The few times we played them, when he got hits, it could have cost me a game," Oswalt said. "It could have cost me money in my contract. He cheated me out of the game and I take it personally, because I've never done [PEDs], haven't done it, and they're cheating me out of the game."
From ESPN.com
Rodriguez has 553 home runs, 1,606 RBIs and is widely recognized at the best player in the game. But Oswalt says A-Rod is simply one of many whose numbers should be stricken from the record.
"A-Rod's numbers shouldn't count for anything," Oswalt said in a phone interview with MLB.com. "I feel like he cheated me out of the game."
Oswalt said he feels that way about a lot of players who have been proven steroid users. He still gives former teammate Roger Clemens the benefit of the doubt, calling the allegations against him "suspicion," but if Clemens is indeed proven to have used performance-enhancing drugs, then his numbers, and all seven Cy Young Awards, need to be erased, according to Oswalt.
Oswalt also said he is bothered by the blanket of suspicion that has covered all players from his era because of the actions of those who have tested positive. Oswalt broke into the big leagues in 2001, won 19 games in 2002 and 20 in both 2004 and '05. He says he did so without the help of PEDs, and that he resents anyone who chose to cheat.
"It does bother me," Oswalt said. "Especially for the guys that went out there and did it on talent. We're always going to have a cloud on us, and that's not fair at all.
"The ones that have come out and admitted it, and are proven guilty, [their numbers] should not count. I've been cheated out of the game," Oswalt continued. "This is my ninth year, and I've done nothing to enhance my performance, other than work my butt off to get guys out. These guys [who took PEDs] have all the talent in the world. All-Star talent. And they put times two on it.
"I'm going out there with the ability God gave me. They have that ability, too, and they're putting something on top of it."
Oswalt said he considers Henry Aaron to be the all-time home run leader, despite Barry Bonds' official place at the top of the record books in that category.
Rodriguez admitted in an ESPN interview on Monday that he took performance-enhancing drugs during his three years with the Rangers from 2001-03. That irks Oswalt even more, he said, because the Astros faced him a handful of times during that period when the Astros played the Rangers during Interleague Play.
As a Ranger, Rodriguez was 3-for-5 vs. Oswalt with two doubles, one home run, three RBIs and two walks. Last year, as a Yankee, Rodriguez was hitless in two at-bats against Oswalt.
"The few times we played them, when he got hits, it could have cost me a game," Oswalt said. "It could have cost me money in my contract. He cheated me out of the game and I take it personally, because I've never done [PEDs], haven't done it, and they're cheating me out of the game."