Stride...too linear ???

It is almost imposiible not to sweep if you use heavy hip rotation.

quote:

Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
Reading on another thread where the "guru's" were suggesting sweeping into foot plant rather than taking a linear path. It has always been my understanding and experience the further you strayed from the fall line the more problems you introduce. Any thoughts ?

If sweeping out and around foot plant (aka a rotational lower body movement) is so bad then...

1. Why do you see rotational, sweeping lower body actions in durable guys like Greg Maddux and Nolan Ryan?

2. Why do you see linear lower body actions in trainwrecks like Mark Prior?

I don't think the nature of the lower body movement is the whole enchilada when it comes to understanding injuries. However, I do think the conventional wisdom -- which advocates up, down, and straight out into footplant (aka a linear stride) -- may be wrong.

If not harmful.

All the kids in our area were taught straight up and straight down and out. They were taught by current major league P coaches in the off season. It is hard to tell which is better. the guy who taught my son was the head P coach for the Jays and he was emphatic about no rotating hips. My son tried last year and it really messed him up. New college P coach who thankfully is gone trying to squeeze more MPH out of him. Also developed a pinching sensation i his shoulder until I converted him back.

quote:

Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
Reading on another thread where the "guru's" were suggesting sweeping into foot plant rather than taking a linear path. It has always been my understanding and experience the further you strayed from the fall line the more problems you introduce. Any thoughts ?

Here's a clip, that I think was put together by namyn luap, that illustrates the difference in the lower bodies of Mark Prior and Pedro Martinez.



Notice how Martinez's lower body is fairly rotational (sweeping out and around into foot plant) while Prior's is much more linear (up, down, and out).

While I don't think this totally explains their different health histories, I think it's pretty interesting.

Prior finishes slightly more closed in those clips.
My son's chiropractor worked with Prior for a few years. He like House didn't blame mechanics on Priors problems.

Does sweeping the plant foot accomplish something that the straight stride doesn't ? Could it simply be a function of lift height ? Seems like the examples YaYa touts all are trying to stick their knee in their ear(Ryan & Pedro).

quote:

Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
Does sweeping the plant foot accomplish something that the straight stride doesn't ? Could it simply be a function of lift height ? Seems like the examples YaYa touts all are trying to stick their knee in their ear(Ryan & Pedro).

It helps to stretch and engage the muscles of the core, which makes you much more efficient because you're throwing more with your entire body and less with your arm. That's the reason why a smaller guy like Lincecum can throw as hard as he does.

To be clear, a linear stride may help improve control but at the cost of efficiency (and usually velocity).

They are both effective ways to pitch. I agree with YAYA that you may lose some velo with linear but I have always gone with control over velo. Using linear doesn't mean you wont throw 90 mph and above. The heavy lower rotation does give a Little more leverage but it was hard for my son to switch to it. (OOPS Is that permissible that I mention my son )

quote:

It has always been my understanding and experience the further you strayed from the fall line the more problems you introduce. Any thoughts ?

Yes. The old school of thought must still be around...it was the new school of thought around 10 or so years ago. Staying linear also meant you needed to keep your hips closed until after landing. That was the beginning of mph limitations, sore arms, passive hip opening and dead backsides.

I put this clip together along with another. My intent was to illustrate the two different body postures when the hand was passing through the high zone vs hand position at solid foot plant. The clips also illustrate a linear lower body (Prior) vs a more traditional sweeping leg into foot plant (Martinez.)

quote:

It is almost imposiible not to sweep if you use heavy hip rotation.

You need to look at Bartolo Colon. Heavy hip opening…hips start closed, cork screw type stride leg action into foot plant….really not using a sweep at all. He sticks his stride foot out and then pulls it back in, then uses his pelvis to cork screw into foot plant.

One difference I see in Prior's and Pedro's mechanics in the clip is after the pause to show the hand in the 'high position' Pedro's hips rotate more fully and for a longer period of time than Prior's do. It looks like Pedro's hips are absorbing more of the stress in the release than Prior's are. This is linked to cap'n's point about Prior's hand passing thru the high zone late.

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quote:

Originally posted by cap_n:
Staying linear also meant you needed to keep your hips closed until after landing.

This isn't even physically possible if you're throwing hard.

You'd tear your knee up.

quote:

Originally posted by cap_n:
You need to look at Bartolo Colon. Heavy hip opening…hips start closed, cork screw type stride leg action into foot plant….really not using a sweep at all. He sticks his stride foot out and then pulls it back in, then uses his pelvis to cork screw into foot plant.

Maddux is the prototypical sweeper.

IMO, Pedro is garnering far more potential energy with his more athletic delivery. Notice his high knee kick compared to Prior? Notice how Prior lands on his heel.. unlike Pedro? To me, all of this points to lost potential energy on the part of Prior.

As for linear vs. sweeping, it's in the eye of the beholder. Both actions have to occur to reach foot plant. But the motion should be steadily more linear as it approaches foot plant, to maintain balance and flow.

quote:

Originally posted by John YaYa:
Maddux is the prototypical sweeper.

Take a look at Maddux early on and then again later in his career. Ryan too.

Lincecum is just a freak, hard to teach that action.

Santana and Pedro appear to me to be middle ground as far as sweeping vs linear stride.

Also written by YaYa; Why do you see rotational, sweeping lower body actions in durable guys like Greg Maddux and Nolan Ryan?

How then do you explain Koufax ?


BTW, stretch & engage core, how's that?

Many people in baseball DO blame his mechanics for his injuries. He absolutely WAS closed and he constantly had to throw across his body to make adjustments.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Prior finishes slightly more closed in those clips.
My son's chiropractor worked with Prior for a few years. He like House didn't blame mechanics on Priors problems.

quote:

Originally posted by John YaYa:

quote:

Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
Reading on another thread where the "guru's" were suggesting sweeping into foot plant rather than taking a linear path. It has always been my understanding and experience the further you strayed from the fall line the more problems you introduce. Any thoughts ?

Here's a clip, that I think was put together by namyn luap, that illustrates the difference in the lower bodies of Mark Prior and Pedro Martinez.



Notice how Martinez's lower body is fairly rotational (sweeping out and around into foot plant) while Prior's is much more linear (up, down, and out).

While I don't think this totally explains their different health histories, I think it's pretty interesting.

What I see the difference being in the two is that Pedro gets a negative hip move first (coils away from hitter).

Watching the video, I don't think the stride has anything to do with Priors injury problems and his probably allows most pitches to throw more strikes. Priors problem is that he has an inverted L ( his throwing elbow is above his shoulder with the ball below) as compared to Padro who Brings the ball up during his wind up. This is one of the leading factors in most shoulder injuries.

Coach Curt

I think that you are exactly correct. There are so many minor details that lead to injury as a pitcher, but the biggest no-no for me personally is the elbow getting up over the shoulder before the ball. That is an invite for disaster. Put you arm up the way Priors is just before he starts to come forward with the ball in an inverted L, and you can just feel the stress. With shoddy mechanics, and the # of innings he pitched on school, he was heading for an injury from the outset, in my opinion.

What I have always noticed is the similarities in both the pitching and hitting motion. In order to both throw and pitch hard, the core area of the hips must wind up against a stationary rear foot. This causes the back at the shoulder area to wind up slightly more than the rest of the trunk. From this point the body acts like a catapult with the lead leg acting as a counter weight to help drive the loaded force forward and then being planted to act as the force keeping the weight from falling into the ground. The lead leg and foot must come planted in a fairly open position to allow for proper hip rotation which precedes the arm motion into catapult forward motion. The arm is then catapulted forward forming a perpindicular line with his body trunk at release. the way the lead leg moves initially really doesn't matter whether it sweeps or it is more linear as long as good balance can be maintained before and after foot plant. Both batters and throwers will either be linear or sweep into a slighly open position. Sweeping into a slighly open position helps the hips rotate quicker and more degrees in my opinion because it allows the hip more unhampered movement which allows the leg to follow a more natural path leading to more usable power and less injuries.

In batters they don't like them to open up to much because you lose the ability to hit outside pitches. I compensate with just standing closer to the plate or begining slightyl closed.

Here is a great clip of Juan Cruz with a sweeping motion and opening up more allowing full hip rotation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...YvRY&feature=related