Strike Zone Question

Forget the rules for just a moment. Take your daily newspaper and open the sheets so that the front/back page are totally open. Take that as the width of the strike zone. Now, I'm taking into account the BLACK of the plate plus the width of a baseball. OK? That gives the width.
Now the height is a different issue. That's very subjective and I'll leave that to others to describe. Knees to letters? "Hollow of knees to belt"?

The depth of the strike zone is the plate. IMHO, if it clips any part of the strikezone I'm gonna call it. I don't care if a catcher takes it on a bounce if it's a 12-6 breaking ball it's a strike if it catches ANY part of the strike zone.

That's my 2 cents.

A pitch that bounces, by rule, can not be a strike.
The strike zone is different at different levels plus the size and ability of the players change. One rule set uses the knee, another the hollow, the top is difined slightly different but in real time we use the same guidelines for all the ages. Now how tightly we call it depends on the ability. Obviously you are going to hold a D1 pitcher to a higher standard than a 9/10 just learning. This is true of other rules as well.

To answer one part of the question, the strike zone is 3D, and not just a rectangle at the front of the plate.

And just for clarity, though perhaps obvious, a bounced pitch which the batter swings at can be a hit, a foul, or a strike.

I had a feeling that this was going to get nit-picked. What I was trying to say was that a ball that passes THROUGH any part of the strike zone but bounces to the catcher (think about that before replying) is a strike.

Coaches can only see high/low and not inside/outside. Worse, the lower the level the more that I've heard b*tching about a called ball they thought was a strike because of WHERE the catcher caught it and NOT where it passed around the strikezone (vs. a strike for passing THROUGH the strikezone).

I have no problem with commenting but please make sure you read what I've written carefully.

Lastly, describing the strikezone is like pornography in the sense that I know a strike when I see it (as long as I'm behind the dish) although I sometimes have a time describing it outside of citing the rulebook.

Oh, one more thing, we all have a customized strike zone because we're human (at least most of us are). I've heard excellent coaches say that you've seen his zone now work with it. That's an excellent comment that I wish more coaches would follow.

Bottom line: CONSISTENCY

quote:

To answer one part of the question, the strike zone is 3D, and not just a rectangle at the front of the plate.

And just for clarity, though perhaps obvious, a bounced pitch which the batter swings at can be a hit, a foul, or a strike.

Thank you, the 3D answer is the one I was looking at. I asked this of a major league pitcher, albeit not a long-serving one, and he said it was always judged from the front of the plate, which caused my confusion. I had always imagined it to be a 3D Pentagonal prism.

Technically, I guess a swung at bounced pitched ball could also be a hit by pitch, dead-ball strike (which is still a strike, as you said).

quote:

Originally posted by therefump:
What I was trying to say was that a ball that passes THROUGH any part of the strike zone but bounces to the catcher (think about that before replying) is a strike.

IMO, Unless the catcher is set up WAAAAY deep (outside the box deep) you shouldn't call this pitch a strike. It sets you up for a bad day. It is a "gross error"; one in which EVERYONE knows you blew it.

When have you ever seen a pitch that bounces in to the catchers glove called a strike by seasoned umpire?

I'm not an umpire, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night (no joke, business travel in DC area).

I believe it is a strike if any part of the ball passes through any part of the strike zone, which is three dimensional view of the plate (including black) between the X and the Y.

I'll leave X, Y and bouncing for the pro's. (I only stayed one night).

quote:

IMO, Unless the catcher is set up WAAAAY deep (outside the box deep) you shouldn't call this pitch a strike. It sets you up for a bad day. It is a "gross error"; one in which EVERYONE knows you blew it.

When have you ever seen a pitch that bounces in to the catchers glove called a strike by seasoned umpire?

Watch any good pitcher in the majors and occasionally you'll see a catcher catch one on the bounce that is a CALLED strike. C'mon. A 12-6 breaking ball? Jeez, even Jamie Moyer occasionally will throw one.

quote:

I'm not an umpire, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night (no joke, business travel in DC area).

Good one. I think I must've worked with you once.

Have seen lots of pitches called far a strike that hit the plate .Also I have seen some called strikes hit a batters back foot resulting in a HBP.
You will get more calls at the front of the plate. Some LHP have the ability to sweep across the left front corner against LH batters. The catcher ends up receiving the ball a few feet off the left side of the plate. A called strike.

quote:

Originally posted by NavyUmp:

IMO, Unless the catcher is set up WAAAAY deep (outside the box deep) you shouldn't call this pitch a strike. It sets you up for a bad day. It is a "gross error"; one in which EVERYONE knows you blew it.

When have you ever seen a pitch that bounces in to the catchers glove called a strike by seasoned umpire?

I Agree. Whenever I have a catcher setting up this deep, I wait 'til he throws the ball back to the pitcher, and stand in his spot. This almost always gets him to set up closer to the plate. I won't tell catchers how to catch. That is the coach's job. I have never had to do this at HS varsity level or higher.

And if a major league umpire ever calls a pitch in the dirt a strike (from Jamie Moyer or anyone else), he is going to get considerable abuse, and rightfully so.

Just wondering if you have two pitchers of obvious different abilities. One very good and the other seemingly new to pitching. Do you have different strike zones for them?

In HS baseball....My goal for every game is that I have one consistent zone for all the pitchers and batters for that game.....

IMHO, adapting your zone to the abilities of the pitcher is wrongly inserting yourself into the game. You set the best zone you can, and call the pitches where they are....

quote:

And if a major league umpire ever calls a pitch in the dirt a strike (from Jamie Moyer or anyone else), he is going to get considerable abuse, and rightfully so.

C'mon. You're not doing your job if you are more worried about the abuse than calling a STRIKE. Maybe you need a new side profession. I'm NOT talking about a ball bouncing off the plate and calling it a STRIKE.....however possible that may be, I'm talking about a ball that drops very quickly after "falling" through the strike zone and bounces into the catches mitt (yes, he could be setup too far back!)

I know it's hard to "read" this but that's taking things a bit far.

quote:

In HS baseball....My goal for every game is that I have one consistent zone for all the pitchers and batters for that game.....

IMHO, adapting your zone to the abilities of the pitcher is wrongly inserting yourself into the game. You set the best zone you can, and call the pitches where they are....

I agree wholeheartedly in theory. What about a sitch where it's 18-1 after 1 inning. Up here in the NE we had so much rain that HS were playing games 5 in a row and were out of pitchers. I hate it but I relaxed the zone after confering with the winning team. I also would note that it screwed up my strike zone for my night game for about 1 inning. I need consistency just like everyone else.

quote:

Originally posted by therefump:

quote:

And if a major league umpire ever calls a pitch in the dirt a strike (from Jamie Moyer or anyone else), he is going to get considerable abuse, and rightfully so.

C'mon. You're not doing your job if you are more worried about the abuse than calling a STRIKE. Maybe you need a new side profession. I'm NOT talking about a ball bouncing off the plate and calling it a STRIKE.....however possible that may be, I'm talking about a ball that drops very quickly after "falling" through the strike zone and bounces into the catches mitt (yes, he could be setup too far back!)

I know it's hard to "read" this but that's taking things a bit far.

I'm not talking about kiddie ball. HS varsity and above - you want a strike? Then catch the **** pitch (with some obvious exceptions). At the higher levels, when a catcher mishandles a pitch and doesn't get the call on a pitch that could have been a strike, he usually says "My Bad" to the pitcher. And if the coach has any comment, it usually is "You've got to catch that pitch" to the catcher.

therefump:
I would agree that if he is set up too far back then it is possible for a ball to bounced slightly and be a strike. However, if a catcher is where he is supposed to be it is impossible to go through the zone and hit the dirt.

Michael, You are probably right for high school and above, but I think I've seen lots of 9 year old 35 MPH gravity fed lob ball pitching to a 4' kid hit the dirt past the pitcher and still go through the strike zone. The only other exception I would think would be an epheus pitch - which if it's a strike, it's usually a back-up-third situation.

quote:

Originally posted by therefump:

quote:

And if a major league umpire ever calls a pitch in the dirt a strike (from Jamie Moyer or anyone else), he is going to get considerable abuse, and rightfully so.

C'mon. You're not doing your job if you are more worried about the abuse than calling a STRIKE. Maybe you need a new side profession. I'm NOT talking about a ball bouncing off the plate and calling it a STRIKE.....however possible that may be, I'm talking about a ball that drops very quickly after "falling" through the strike zone and bounces into the catches mitt (yes, he could be setup too far back!)

I know it's hard to "read" this but that's taking things a bit far.

IMO Umpiring is not about getting every ball/ strike call correct; it is about managing the game. No coach managing above 12U is going to expect to get a ball in the dirt called a strike (if that is even possible!). So why call it? It is game mismanagement. It will create problems in other areas of the game that would not otherwise be problems. You cannot be taken seriously calling that pitch a strike. Go to the ABUA website and post this and see the responses you get.

A ball that passes through the strike zone and hits the dirt behind the plate is a strike and I have seen this several times. The catcher takes it off the dirt and is set up properly.

navyump
Are you kidding me !!!

It is not about getting balls and strikes correct !!!
WHAT !!!! It all starts there

As a coach you teach kids, pitchers and hitters, the strike zone, even teach them to adapt to current home plate umps zone and then the home plate ump keeps moving the zone---widening or shrinking it depending on whether he had a fight with his wife/GF before coming to the park or he has a dinner date.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:


and then the home plate ump keeps moving the zone---widening or shrinking it depending on whether he had a fight with his wife/GF before coming to the park or he has a dinner date.

Since this will be my last post in response to you, I'll be brief.

Nearly every post I've seen you write on the umpire page is negative and attacking. Several border on personal. Sometimes I'm surprised the moderators allow you to continue in a thread.

You appear to be unhappy or to have never had a positive experience with an umpire in your life.

Sometime, try, just try to state your point without adding a needless insult.

Have a great summer.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
navyump
Are you kidding me !!!

It is not about getting balls and strikes correct !!!
WHAT !!!! It all starts there

As a coach you teach kids, pitchers and hitters, the strike zone, even teach them to adapt to current home plate umps zone and then the home plate ump keeps moving the zone---widening or shrinking it depending on whether he had a fight with his wife/GF before coming to the park or he has a dinner date.

Are you a TRAINED umpire? I doubt it. Outside of Pro ball with instant reply, getting calls correct is all about perception. I'll say it again, no seasoned umpire or coach at the varsity level (and most at the fresh./JV level) "Perceives" a ball in the dirt a strike. If you call it a strike you are perceived as a "Smitty". Good luck after that. Nuff said!

In an effort to stop the flogging of the dead horse I will say this and put it to bed so to speak. A strike is a strike is a strike whether the catcher catches it or not.....LL, HS Varsity, over 30, etc. I will take exception to tee-ball.

Dash....are you the partner who would throw his partner under the bus if you were BU and PU calls a strike that the catcher doesn't catch?

Let me say this folks---the umpring I have been seeing is terrible---I won't even sit and have a beer with them if I meet them in a restaurant

I have had them argue with one of our coaches over rules and ther coach was on the Federation Rules Panel--he wrote the rules---now who would you believe in that discussion

When you have an ump tell you that calling balls and strikes correctly is not important then you have a real problem with me

Most umps also think that once they put the uniform on they are a "god"--well they are not---they are simple part of the field and the game

In fact certain of them on here read what they want to read--I never even mentioned the ball in the dirt aspect---I questioned the "correct calls" are not important aspect---you also do not have to be a so-called "trained" umpire to know the game and how it should be called

Good day ladies and gents--back to the Division III playoffs

TR does seem uncapable to post anything about an umpire without gratutious insults. He must have some of the worse umpires in his area to make him so bitter. I will freely admit we make mistakes, some more than others but I can't believe he has no umpires that are worth it.

quote:

Originally posted by therefump:

Dash....are you the partner who would throw his partner under the bus if you were BU and PU calls a strike that the catcher doesn't catch?

If I am BU, my partner is calling balls and strikes. Whatever he calls is what it is.

In other words, I have no idea what you are trying to say.

I went through the posts twice tonight. There are some great observations and some that I think need to be commented on one last time. I'm not out to pummel anyone, just want to make some additional or re-enforcing comments. Everyone had some great comments that made me stop and think rather than just say "that's bullsh*t" like most of us umpires are wont to do. Here's a rehash....


Coach_Bayer: you opened up a true can of worms. This was an interesting discussion.

Michael S. Taylor: A pitch that bounces, by rule, can not be a strike.

I assume you meant that a pitch that bouces BEFORE the plate cannot be a called strike. Right?

Me (therefump): I had a feeling that this was going to get nit-picked. What I was trying to say was that a ball that passes THROUGH any part of the strike zone but bounces to the catcher (think about that before replying) is a strike.

I stand by what I said no matter what sh*t I get from ANYONE. A coach will watch from the parking lot if he starts on me about balls/strikes. A BU who objects might be doing the game himself or watching with the coach. I don't like partners who throw the other under the bus. I've had it happen to me.

NavyUmp: IMO, Unless the catcher is set up WAAAAY deep (outside the box deep) you shouldn't call this pitch a strike. It sets you up for a bad day. It is a "gross error"; one in which EVERYONE knows you blew it.

WRONG WRONG WRONG. Calling a strike is not an absolute. Further, if you're going to be swayed by criticism on calling strikes then maybe you should be looking for other activities to fill your time. See what circumstances I described again.

JMoff: I'm not an umpire, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night (no joke, business travel in DC area).

I swear I worked with you at some point. Ever been to SouthEastern PA?

BobbleheadDoll: Have seen lots of pitches called far a strike that hit the plate .Also I have seen some called strikes hit a batters back foot resulting in a HBP.
You will get more calls at the front of the plate.

Good observations overall.

dash_riprock: And if a major league umpire ever calls a pitch in the dirt a strike (from Jamie Moyer or anyone else), he is going to get considerable abuse, and rightfully so.

Your point? BTW, if he's a seasoned pro he's going to eject the idiot who gives him abuse about balls and strikes.

piaa_ump: IMHO, adapting your zone to the abilities of the pitcher is wrongly inserting yourself into the game. You set the best zone you can, and call the pitches where they are....

Excellent point. We must've been to similar seminars for PIAA

I thought you were finished (see your previous post).

Nah, I came home from a game and re-read the entire post and thought I'd comment again. Hope it didn't come across too harsh but if it did...have at me.

Glad you made your comment. I agree totally. Balls that bounce in front cannot be called strikes unless swumg at.

Therefump: I wasn't kidding, I'm not an umpire. I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express that day, although it didn't necessarily increase my ability to add value to this discussion.

The only times I ever umpired was as a high school student doing Little League games. I have also umpired club game scrimmages but mostly from behind the mound, a couple of times I geared up. I filled in a few times for my daughter's Little League in softball when the paid guy didn't show up and I've done her club ball scrimmages.

I'm just a former coach and parent now. When my kids are done playing, I have a feeling I might go to a clinic or two and take up the trade, but I'm not an umpire now.

I said in some other thread that all parents who jump on umpires should have to get behind the plate a couple of times a year just to get some perspective. It looks a lot easier than it actually is.

Personally, the hardest umpiring I ever did was minors LL softball. Umpire didn't show up, so it was either volunteer or no game.

Girls about 3'6" tall batting, pitchers that couldn't throw strikes, ball falling through the strike zone at a 60 degree angle, three out of four pitches hit your shins/feet/ankles, etc. I had to widen the zone, call every 3-0 pitch that didn't bounce a strike (note this is not a political statement about this thread), I had no idea what my own strike zone was... I started awarding strikes for good mechanics on the release (style points). Still had about 40 walks in a 2 hour, 3 inning game with a final score in the 20's for each team. I think less than 10 balls were put in play.

I was still in work clothes, they gave me a mask but nothing else. All those balls hitting my shins were hitting bone. Ball was only going about 20 mph, but it started to hurt after a while.

And the parents were all over me...

You guys don't get paid enough.

let us know when you want to get started...Im sure we can get you all the resources you need to give it a go.....!!

Thanks, I plan to.

One of the reasons to participate in this thread is to get some background so at least I'll know the rules part and I'm not trying to learn mechanics & rules at the same time.

I'm too old to learn two things at once :-)

Here's my 2 cents. Please don't penalize my pitcher because my catcher is a little inexperienced or not top quality. If the ball is in the zone CALL IT A STRIKE.

(I guess I don't have a copy of the rules book that says, "if the catcher doesn't handle the ball cleanly, without swaying in any way, call it a ball regardless of where the ball crossed the plate)

And another note; I get along very well with umps; most of ours do a very good job... and if I wasn't coaching so much right now I would ump.

Understood coach, but here is my 2 cents.

Please don't penalize your pitcher because you put in a catcher is a little inexperienced or not top quality. If the ball is in the zone I will CALL IT A STRIKE......yet if your catcher is swaying or rising up into my field of vision or "pulling pitches" into the center of the zone on every pitch or letting them hit me with regularity, it will affect my ability to call strikes.....a good catcher will get more called strikes by the level of his play........

I've said this before....Clearly a pitchers best friend is a solid catcher. It can be annoying to have a moving swaying catcher in front of you. I have had to remind some catchers to stay down if they want me to get a good look.

As catchers have gotten bigger, I have not. A good solid catcher, quiet and still, who gives me a nice frame (notice I said frame and not pull) will get you strikes.

Conversely a bad catcher can hurt your cause.....

quote:

Understood coach, Big Grin but here is my 2 cents.

Please don't penalize your pitcher because you put in a catcher is a little inexperienced or not top quality. If the ball is in the zone I will CALL IT A STRIKE......yet if your catcher is swaying or rising up into my field of vision or "pulling pitches" into the center of the zone on every pitch or letting them hit me with regularity, it will affect my ability to call strikes.....a good catcher will get more called strikes by the level of his play........

I've said this before....Clearly a pitchers best friend is a solid catcher. It can be annoying to have a moving swaying catcher in front of you. I have had to remind some catchers to stay down if they want me to get a good look.

As catchers have gotten bigger, I have not. A good solid catcher, quiet and still, who gives me a nice frame (notice I said frame and not pull) will get you strikes.

Conversely a bad catcher can hurt your cause.....

AMEN AMEN AMEN. I had a playoff game (CYO) on Saturday where the one catcher wouldn't set until the pitcher got set, framed pitches constantly, popped up constantly.....who do you think got the better strikezone?

PIAA_ump got this one exactly right.

For JMOFF. Get into it. From what I remember back about 28 yrs ago, it was overwhelming at first but once you get into it you'll do fine. Keep the open mind, expect and accept criticism, learn how to say little in an argument (let the coach vent), and most importantly, get those people skills honed.

Ummm, in deference to our umps the strike zone is whatever you say it is that particular day of the week....or month...or year.

I just wish you would make it easier for my pitchers to find and my hitters to understand before we reach the 3rd inning. LOL.

I tell my kids not to play umpire. The strike zone for my kids with no strikes, is crotch to bottom of the letters. With one strike, it's knees to letters where they think the umpire might call a strike and they can drive. With 2 strikes against, any ball they think they can hit, hit; go with the location. A strike is what ever the umpire says it is; even if he is wrong, he is right.

In my playing years, seems like a hundred years ago, I was a catcher.

One thing I learned in rural New Hampshire, was to figure out what kind of an umpire I was working with. In my younger years, I had guys who wouldn't focus and would litterally play in the dirt and pour it down my shirt while the pitch was on the way. I could pull a pitch that went to the backstop back into the zone for a strike. Obviously, these umpires were in a very low level rec league. I think most of them were reformed prision escapees.

By the time I got to high school, I'd learned that umpires:
1.) Know what a strike is, don't insult them by pulling the gloce into the zone
2.) Can't see over the top of you're big fat head. Stay down until you have to throw somebody out. It's OK to reach up and catch a high pitch without obscuring his vision (top of zone).
3.) Don't like to get hit with balls; if the ball hits the umpire, you should take such an event as a great personal failure. It should be emotionally disquieting. Sure, some foul balls will hit him (and you) but if a pitched ball hits an umpire, you should have to go to confession.
4.) Most umpires know/see the strike zone as well as you do. Sure, you have a better look, but they have their twist on it. If you can't get the pitch breaking into the zone on the inside corner a strike, MOVE.

At the high school level, I rarely had an umpire who couldn't effectively call balls and strikes. Of course lots of parents would be getting PO'd on both sides, yet from my view, the umpire would be doing a pretty good job.

My son is a HS pitcher. Whenever I was PO'd with the umpire, I'd ask the senior catcher what was going on. EVERY SINGLE TIME, he'd say, "He's got the zone correct" or "He's giving 2" on the outside, so I moved out", or after a day where I was completely convinced son was getting squeezed, he said, "Eventually we got a few calls out there".

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
A pitch that bounces, by rule, can not be a strike.
/QUOTE]

quote:

Originally posted by drfanman:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
A pitch that bounces, by rule, can not be a strike.
/QUOTE]

Where in OBR does it say that?

The NFHS rule book specifically states that the pitched ball must be in flight when it passes through the zone to be a called strike. To the best of my knowledge the OBR does not indicate "in flight".

From OBR Rule 2 Definitions:
A BALL is a pitch which does not enter the strike zone in flight and is not struck at by the batter.

Rule 2.00 (Ball) Comment: If the pitch touches the ground and bounces through the strike zone it
is a “ball.” If such a pitch touches the batter, he shall be awarded first base. If the batter swings at such a
pitch after two strikes, the ball cannot be caught, for the purposes of Rule 6.05 (c) and 6.09 (b). If the
batter hits such a pitch, the ensuing action shall be the same as if he hit the ball in flight.

quote:

To the best of my knowledge the OBR does not indicate "in flight".

I guess my answer wasn't complete enough. I meant to say that "in flight" isn't indicated in the definition of a strike. It is in dicated in the definition of a ball; as pointed out by 3FG.