Strikeouts

For the most part making an out is to be avoided. A players Walk to strikeout ratio tells you alot about his value and the type of hitter he is. How you make an out is not a big consideration, so a K is preferable to a DP. In the real world "productive outs" do make a difference particularly as they effect things that may be hard to measure such as a change in the realative confidence levels of pitchers and hitters.
If you want a realistic answer to the inquiry regarding strike outs you'd have to look at a time before the HR became so prevalant. In the Deadball era putting the ball in play was much more highly valued. Now players get paid to hit the loong ball and accecpt the Ks that come with attempting to go yard. Boggs was the best I've seen at avaoiding the strikeout although Joltin Joe's career K's are just a few greater then the # of strikeouts he hit.

Rob,
From memory I believe the longest streaks with no K's in AB's are by Joey Sewell in the 1920's when he had seasons where he struck out 3 and 4 times. I believe Nellie Fox of the 1950's and 60's also had a long AB streak with no K's. Have to leave for work soon but will find out the exact numbers as soon as I can.

I beleive it was Joe Sewell who went something like 437 at bats in 115 games without striking out.

I am not sure i agree with the whole SABR in using balls in play as pitching effectiveness. As a pitcher, you want to pitch to contact and make the hitter put the ball in play, never trying to strke someone out until you have 2 strikes on the hitter.

As a coach, you love players who do not strikeout. Obviously putting the ball in play leads to opportunities for the hitter.

I forgot to mention 3rdgenerationnation that in 1941, Joe DiMaggio struck out only 12 times despite hitting 30 HRs.

I looked at the career strikeout percentage leaders, and Joe Sewell is #1 at 1.6%. There is only one active player in the top 100 - Juan Pierre, #98 at 6.1%. Dimaggio is %58 and Jackie Robinson is #91.

It is clear looking at the top 100 that there are far more strikeouts in the modern game than in the first half of the 20th century.

I wonder now that the steroids era is over will we see fewer strikeouts and a higher premium on putting the ball in play?

How you pitch depends on what type of pitcher you are. If you are a strikeout pitcher you try to get strikeouts as long as that doesn't lead to excessive strikeouts (oops, excessive number of pitches). If you can't get people to swing and miss then you try to get them to hit your pitch.

Strikeouts are the ideal, but far easier said than done.

I believe, but haven't checked it, that power hitters tend to have a better BABIP than singles hitters who don't strike out often. Fly balls tend to be caught about 75% of the time. Home runs tend to be caught about 0% of the time.

I think that as you go up in levels, striking out as a hitter becomes less of a sin. I always tell my son never to strike out looking, and he rarely, rarely strikes out, which is a good thing at the high school level. Not striking out leads to more hits and ROE's, just by putting the ball in play.

However, when you get to the higher college levels and into professional baseball, I don't think strikeouts are as bad. You probably aren't going to be safe if you hit a chopper to shortstop in the hole, as you might be in high school. Guys can make the routine plays, so being comfortable late in the count and looking to drive the ball is probably better at the big league level.

If you're Ryan Howard or Jim Thome or someone like that, then they aren't that big of a deal because those guys are paid to drive the ball out of the ball park. I suggest for most hitters who are not true power hitters, then they are a big deal. Look at scouting reports of the recent drafts at mlb.com and you'll see it often mentioned about walks to strikeout ratio, where 1:1 is considered very good. Kevin Youkalis made a name for himself with on base percentage and he has since added power to his game. The Oakland Athletics are known to draft guys who have good eyes at the plate, can work the count, and yes, do not strike out.

Getting caught looking is unavoidable at the upper levels of the sport. When a guy throws hard and has a good changeup you are forced to guess sometimes. Guess wrong and you may not be able to get the bat off your shoulder. What makes it tough at the upper levels is they will pitch backwards i.e., throw breaking balls in fastball counts and vis versa.

I feel as we move into what is starting to look like a pitcher's cycle--HR's down, batting average down around 15 points for the leagues, that there will be an influx of guys who K less often. Many of the big sluggers who now are hitting .235 with 15-20 HRs instead of 35 a few years ago are slow and poor defensively. As there are more and more low scoring games--just look at the shutouts tonite and lately--the guys who have more to their game than just jacking HRs will become more prevelant and these guys tend to strike out less. To counter that though, there is a new wave of young power pitchers coming into their prime. They will run the guys who strike out 150 times but only hit 15-20 HRs out of the game.

I would think the lower your strikeout ratio the better, which means you are putting more balls in play. This should increase your chances of a ball getting through the infield for a hit.

This is very very very important at the level of ball I am at right now. My son is 9, and I am a coach on his league team(majors 9-12yo), 9yo All Star team(which won their districts this year), 9-10yo All Star team(that is 1-1 in Pool Play right now), and his 9U travel team. I tell them at the plate they have 1 JOB to do, and that is put the ball in play...

The defensive team must:
1) field the ball
2) make a good throw
3) 1b or any other base must catch the ball
4) they still have to get the call from the umpire.

I just harp and harp that a groundball productive out is so much better than a strikeout. 9yos dont get it right now and they all think they are going to bat 1.000 every weekend.

My son played the spring season without striking out. I didn't keep his batting average, but it wasn't all that great. He was on base every game, sometimes because of errors. It helps that he is fast. The ball must have looked like a grapefruit because he always made contact, but too often (IMHO) on the first pitch. He moved into the 3 hole because he was just always on base, moving runners, scoring, etc.

The rest of the story is that he wasn't being a patient hitter and did not work the count, so my view was he could have had more honest hits. He made the adjustment, and is batting smarter this summer. His batting average is over .400 against better pitching, and is back to hitting doubles as he always has. However, he has struck out twice.

My conclusion is that too few strikeouts in the younger set can indicate a lack of patience.

I never want my players afraid of striking out. I want them to look to mash the baseball not make contact. Striking out is part of the game. As they get older you can teach situational hitting. A two strike approach where your still looking to mash but expand your zone, etc. Its just my opinion but the best hitters learn at a young age to have no fear. No risk no reward.

Never be satisfied with just putting the ball in play. Your goal should be to mash it somewhere and then run like hel.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
I never want my players afraid of striking out. I want them to look to mash the baseball not make contact. Striking out is part of the game. As they get older you can teach situational hitting. A two strike approach where your still looking to mash but expand your zone, etc. Its just my opinion but the best hitters learn at a young age to have no fear. No risk no reward.

Never be satisfied with just putting the ball in play. Your goal should be to mash it somewhere and then run like hel.

I agree with this. Young hitters need to learn how to swing the bat.

My comments above were directed to the higher levels and there, I think a player needs to know who he is. A 5'10" guy swinging out of his shoes does nobody any good except for the occasions where the pitcher makes a mistake and ends up hitting their bats. Big guys who hit for power, I believe you want them getting their hacks in and you live with the strikeouts.

BTW, there is a difference in my mind between a true power hitter and a guy that can hit a homerun. A pull-power guy generally needs to yank the ball down the lines and get a lot of the sweet spot to get it out. A power hitter can hit them out any place in the ball park whereas a pull-power guy generally will fly out to the warning track in center field. It's important to know who you are and play accordingly.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
I never want my players afraid of striking out. I want them to look to mash the baseball not make contact. Striking out is part of the game. As they get older you can teach situational hitting. A two strike approach where your still looking to mash but expand your zone, etc. Its just my opinion but the best hitters learn at a young age to have no fear. No risk no reward.

Never be satisfied with just putting the ball in play. Your goal should be to mash it somewhere and then run like hel.

I can agree to an extent. Sure I beleive all players should not be afraid. However I feel you have to have self awareness of the type of player you are. If you are a catalyst, and a guy who must get on base and get things going, I beleive your job is to hit the ball hard somewhere and try and get on base. Just put the ball in play. In my opinion, your approach at the plate should never change. I think your approach should always be to put your best swing on the ball, and hit line drives somewhere. No risk no reward, TRUE. But poor approach, NO REWARD..

Don't expect anyone to agree, but...

Can't tell you how many times I've told hitters "great job" after striking out. Especially when our lead off hitter took strike three on a full count.

The lead off hitter who is willing to take the "iffy" strike three with a full count is playing the game to win.

It's simple... any pitch that is a 50-50 (ball or strike) on a lead off hitter whose job is to get on base should not be a strike three swinging or a weak pop up or ground ball. the hitter will be on base 50% of the time if he doesn't swing at that pitch. It takes a special player to do that, but it is putting the team first. No one will ever reach base 50% of the time swinging at 50-50 pitches.

It also takes talent to recognize the 50-50 pitch. Yes, sometimes the umpire will ring you up on that pitch. Some might call it a Cardinal sin to take strike three. However, this is one situation (leading off/full count) when the percentages make it a winning option. Swinging at border line pitches is doing the opponents a favor.

Some might say hitters need to stay aggressive and that is true. Chasing pitches is being over aggressive, especially in certain situations.

Just putting the ball in play might work at times, but that is not good enough.

I was having a discussion about this with my son just the other day as I was questioning an at bat in which he struck out in. He had a runner on first and took 3 straight which he felt were very low in the zone. With the 2 strike count and another pitch low, he felt that the only way to hit that pitch would have resulted in a Double Play ball. He chose instead to take the k and preserve the runner.

I still feel as though there remains the option of intentionally fouling pitches off looking for a mistake.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Don't expect anyone to agree, but...

Can't tell you how many times I've told hitters "great job" after striking out. Especially when our lead off hitter took strike three on a full count.

The lead off hitter who is willing to take the "iffy" strike three with a full count is playing the game to win.

It's simple... any pitch that is a 50-50 (ball or strike) on a lead off hitter whose job is to get on base should not be a strike three swinging or a weak pop up or ground ball. the hitter will be on base 50% of the time if he doesn't swing at that pitch. It takes a special player to do that, but it is putting the team first. No one will ever reach base 50% of the time swinging at 50-50 pitches.

It also takes talent to recognize the 50-50 pitch. Yes, sometimes the umpire will ring you up on that pitch. Some might call it a Cardinal sin to take strike three. However, this is one situation (leading off/full count) when the percentages make it a winning option. Swinging at border line pitches is doing the opponents a favor.

Some might say hitters need to stay aggressive and that is true. Chasing pitches is being over aggressive, especially in certain situations.

Just putting the ball in play might work at times, but that is not good enough.

Exactly PG. Well said. It does take a certain player to be able to decipher the difference. I think one player who did this really well was Frank Thomas. I think he had one of the best judgements of the strike zone of anyone I have ever seen.

As a coach I have always told my players " It's easy. If it's not a strike, dont swing "

This is also why I use the run & hit, not the hit & run. With a hit & run, the runner is relying on the batter to protect him and put the ball in play, forcing the hitter to swing at anything putting himself in a disadvantage, and basically wasting an at bat. You only get 3 outs in an inning, why waste them. With the run & hit, the runner is not relying on anyone he knows its a dead steal, and now my hitter does not have to chase a bad pitch, and only swings if it is something he likes.

This is also where I see the problem that coaches fall victim to and that is telling the hitter "Ok now 2 strikes, protect the zone now" well to me that does not make alot of sense. why would my hitting style change now because there is 2 strikes? If I do not like a certain pitch on an 0-0 count and dont swing, why would I swing at a pitch I dont like on a 1-2, 0-2, count? Just to protect the plate? Not my style. I never get mad at a player for striking out on a pitch he takes if he does not think its a strike. As a hitter I want him to put himself in the best position he feels he has for success without worrying if the coach is going to get mad that he does not swing.

Just my .02

I Agree with twotex that in the younger group of kids that not striking as a younger player can show a lack of discipline. The idea is not just to make contact but to make HARD contact and drive the ball. I had several parents on my younger teams that were just happy when their kid hit the first pitch they could reach back to the mound. This kind of approach will not work at all at the higher levels. A player that does not take walks, especially if he doesn't hit for power, because useless offensively unless he is hitting well above .300. I would rather have a guy who strikes out occasionally but also takes his share of walks.
Nowadays 90 or 100 strikeouts in a ML season is not considered excessive and I agree with this. However when guys fan 185, 195 , 210 and 220 times you reach a point of diminishing returns in my book.
A hitter should never be afraid to strike out as a combination of discipline AND aggressiveness makes a truly good and dangerous hitter.

Threebagger said is perfectly. I am very glad to see my son has found his discipline again. My son is the type of hitter who will learn about a pitcher from a strikeout, and dare him to try the same approach twice. I think he was having some form of 15 year old brain cramp this spring. It made me crazy to watch him swing at the first pitch almost every time.

BTW, to get my point across about discipline while hitting I pulled out The Science of Hitting by Ted Williams. Page 24, the first rule of hitting: Get a good ball to hit.

I also reminded him of what the coach on his first select team said (a former major leaguer): If you swing at the first pitch, the next place I see you better be second base.

I think there are occasions when the first pitch is the one to swing at, but the coach said statistically that is not the case.

twotex,
Up to about the age of 14, my older son hardly ever swung at the first pitch as I had tried to instill in him from the very beginning that he should be disciplined and get a good pitch to hit. Of course he batted leadoff on every team he played for, so this fit his approach. As he got to around 14, the pitchers got better and we soon realized there were times when the first pitch is the best pitch he would see. At first he fought me on this a little, but a week later, he hit a 3 run HR on the first pitch of an AB against a pitcher that we both knew liked to get the jump on the hitter and had the control to do it. After this he became more aggressive on the first pitch although he still took more first pitches than not.
As he got to college, his college coach commented when he recruited him that he wasn't used to seeing players with his plate discipline, as many college guys feel they must be uberaggressive to hit well against the better pitching. While he was redshirted his freshman year, in a late season scrimmage against the starters, he hit a single, triple, and HR against the starters going deep in each AB. In his end of year discussion with my son, his college coach told him he likes his patient approach as it contrasts with many of the other hitters in the lineup. Having said this however, he told him to be very aggressive on First pitches, as many college pitchers are just trying to get ahead of the hitter and after that to follow his disciplined approach especially if he gets ahead in the count. He told him that next year the only stat that should matter to him is On Base Percentage as he considers him a top of the order type hitter. My point is that an AB has room for a very aggressive but disciplined approach even within the same AB. You just have to have the skill and patience to do it.

I'm not a coach and my playing days have been over for 30 years. From my view, behind the catcher, the most disappointing thing I see in some batters is the failure to pay attention to the pitcher and the game when not batting.

Jimmy that is a great point. I have always said you can have four at bat experiences a game or 40. Learn from every at bat in the game not just your own. Watch what the pitcher is doing. Watch how he attacks hitters in certain counts. What tendencies does he have in certain counts? Does his arm angle change on certain pitches? Nothing upsets me more than seeing a kid not learning during the game and not working on the on deck circle or in the dugout.

After reading these very helpful posts, I had a discussion with my son about some of the points. Now we will see what he does with it.