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Submarine Pitchers

7Steps7Steps100+ posts
Does anybody have any information regarding the recruitment of a submarine pitcher? I've seen them on college rosters with peak velocities that fluctuate anywhere from 75-84 mph, so obviously lighting up the gun isn't a priority in scouting like it is in over the top pitchers. What else can they look for? I imagine that a particularely good showing at a camp/showcase would be the best bet...

Any thoughts/personal experiences?
"I'm better than I was yesterday, but not as good as I will be tommorrow."
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ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
Many of the top college teams in the country have submariners on staff or as my son likes to call them "knuckle-scrapers" Smile

I don't believe velocity is the issue. Coaches look for that weird arm angle that hitters are not used to seeing. Movement is the key with submariners imho. Darren O'Day was an All-American at Florida and is now succeeding for the Texas Rangers. I don't believe he throws extremely hard.
L Leftysidearmom100+ posts
My son is more sidearm than submarine but I imagine they look at the same things. He is a Freshman at a D1 and throws from 78-82.

Three bagger is right, excellent command of the strike zone and movement is key. Also, these pitchers induce a lot of ground balls so demonstrating not just the ability to hit his spots but also quick fielding is important. Son is used strictly in relief and mostly in specific situations (lefty on lefty, double play needed, etc).

It's also really cool to watch!
P Pedropere100+ posts
So, leftysidearmmom, how did your son wind up where he is? Did he attend showcases, or play on an elite team in tournaments? And was there much interest from other schools?

I know leftys don't need as much velocity to attract attention, but if you were to post your son's velocity saying he was a hs senior and asking for advice, you'd be told that he didn't throw hard enough and that divison I isn't in the cards. How did he do it?
L Leftysidearmom100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Pedropere:
So, leftysidearmmom, how did your son wind up where he is? Did he attend showcases, or play on an elite team in tournaments? And was there much interest from other schools?

I know leftys don't need as much velocity to attract attention, but if you were to post your son's velocity saying he was a hs senior and asking for advice, you'd be told that he didn't throw hard enough and that divison I isn't in the cards. How did he do it?


Funny you should say that because that is exactly what happened. We posted here and were told by some very well respected people on this site that he wasn't D1 material, even though they knew he was sidearm and lefty. But all his life, he's been told he wasn't tall enough, didn't throw hard enough, and wasn't good enough. The kid is persistent. In his Junior year of HS, his coach noticed that he was practically a 3/4 arm anyway naturally and suggested he make the drop. He studied players such as sidearmer Jose Vaquenados, a long time Red Sox player and last year made the MiLB International All Star team. If the big teams were using these types of pitchers with such success, it didn't add up that a D1 wouldn't also want one.

He had played on a showcase team for a few months in the fall of his Senior year but by then it was a little late for D1's and although it was a good team, they weren't an elite team and didn't get much exposure. He was never invited to any PG or similar events. He attended a couple of camps but he either had a bad day pitching or there weren't any D1 recruiters there other than that school's. That said, if you are interested in one particular school, that is probably the best way to get noticed by them. Understand though that it will take a leap for some recruiters that are used to picking the six foot tall guys that throw hard. You have to find a team that is looking for this kind of pitcher.

So how did he get on a D1 team? Hard work and a little bit of luck. He made sure he'd be an asset on the field and off. He studied hard and ended up with a 4.3 GPA. Got involved in community service to prove his character. All the while remaining focused on getting better at his niche as a reliever. He learned about the value of a "situational pitcher" and proved to his high school team he could play that role ending with the most appearances and an ERA of 1.27. The struggles to become respected on his high school team ended up creating an ability to overcome. This became very useful as sidearmers are often called upon to get a last out in a pressure-packed situation. Towards the end of his high school career I almost couldn't take it any more as every coach would wait to put him in when bases were loaded and the game was on the line. My poor heart! But he loved it and actually thrived on it.

Still no D1 offers came. After graduation, he was all set to attend another university and play clubball. All the deposits were in, we attended orientation and he'd met his roommate. He had offers from D3s but none were a good fit for him outside of baseball. It was a very difficult decision for him but he did heed the advice so often spoken here to make sure the school was a good fit first. He is one of those guys that has a true and deep love for everything baseball so this decision to not take offers to play was heartbreakingly difficult.

In February of his Senior year he had signed up for tryouts for the NC State Games...a long shot he was told. Being that kid that doesn't give up, he went and even though the other guys towered over him, he had a good day showing them some of his most nasty pitches. Still, he didn't make the cut. Fast forward to June and after all the graduation parties in which he explained to his family and friends why he wouldn't be playing college ball. He got a call from the state games coach. Someone had dropped out and they needed a pitcher...in two days. Would he be interested? That call changed his life.

At the games he pitched fairly well and per usual got a ground ball back to prove his fielding prowess. He was one of two players on the roster that weren't already signed. The phone didn't stop ringing for about a week. Seven days after his appearance in the games, he got the call he had been waiting for from one of his top 3 choices for academics, etc.

For others I'd say, don't give up! Go to camps that have a reputation for having many recruiters there or at the very least go to the camps at your top three schools. Contact the coaches. Leftysideson emailed and called the head coach. There was no doubt in their minds that he wanted to play there. Get on a showcase team with alot of visibility and do it before your Junior season. It seems the best showcases are at the beginning of the summer. Get good grades, Get good grades, Get Good grades. When you are the underdog, you need as many plusses in your pocket as possible. Demonstrate to a team why being a sidearm pitcher is a valuable asset. Look up to guys like Javier Lopez and Darren O'Day who just finished pitching sidearm in a World Series game! Learn to be tough in tough situations and play one pitch at a time. And yes, walk the walk.
Last edited by Leftysidearmom
CollegeParentNoMoreCollegeParentNoMore1,000+ posts
Many college coaches like to have at least one submariner on their roster. On my son's team the submariner had a pretty nasty curve and a change up. I think he could hit 80 with his fastball. He rarely threw it over the plate, it was always on/outside/inside the edge of the plate. He also had a good move to first.

He was cut from a west coast D1 and then went to a socal JC, I beleive he was spotted by a coach at a east coast college summer league after his summer coach recomended him.

http://www2.wsls.com/sports/20..._sinks_hi-ar-362440/

btw he was drafted last june.
Last edited by CollegeParentNoMore
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
Originally posted by Leftysidearmom:
quote:
Originally posted by Pedropere:
So, leftysidearmmom, how did your son wind up where he is? Did he attend showcases, or play on an elite team in tournaments? And was there much interest from other schools?

I know leftys don't need as much velocity to attract attention, but if you were to post your son's velocity saying he was a hs senior and asking for advice, you'd be told that he didn't throw hard enough and that divison I isn't in the cards. How did he do it?


Funny you should say that because that is exactly what happened. We posted here and were told by some very well respected people on this site that he wasn't D1 material, even though they knew he was sidearm and lefty. But all his life, he's been told he wasn't tall enough, didn't throw hard enough, and wasn't good enough. The kid is persistent. In his Junior year of HS, his coach noticed that he was practically a 3/4 arm anyway naturally and suggested he make the drop. He studied players such as sidearmer Jose Vaquenados, a long time Red Sox player and last year made the MiLB International All Star team. If the big teams were using these types of pitchers with such success, it didn't add up that a D1 wouldn't also want one.

He had played on a showcase team for a few months in the fall of his Senior year but by then it was a little late for D1's and although it was a good team, they weren't an elite team and didn't get much exposure. He was never invited to any PG or similar events. He attended a couple of camps but he either had a bad day pitching or there weren't any D1 recruiters there other than that school's. That said, if you are interested in one particular school, that is probably the best way to get noticed by them. Understand though that it will take a leap for some recruiters that are used to picking the six foot tall guys that throw hard. You have to find a team that is looking for this kind of pitcher.

So how did he get on a D1 team? Hard work and a little bit of luck. He made sure he'd be an asset on the field and off. He studied hard and ended up with a 4.3 GPA. Got involved in community service to prove his character. All the while remaining focused on getting better at his niche as a reliever. He learned about the value of a "situational pitcher" and proved to his high school team he could play that role ending with the most appearances and an ERA of 1.27. The struggles to become respected on his high school team ended up creating an ability to overcome. This became very useful as sidearmers are often called upon to get a last out in a pressure-packed situation. Towards the end of his high school career I almost couldn't take it any more as every coach would wait to put him in when bases were loaded and the game was on the line. My poor heart! But he loved it and actually thrived on it.

Still no D1 offers came. After graduation, he was all set to attend another university and play clubball. All the deposits were in, we attended orientation and he'd met his roommate. He had offers from D3s but none were a good fit for him outside of baseball. It was a very difficult decision for him but he did heed the advice so often spoken here to make sure the school was a good fit first. He is one of those guys that has a true and deep love for everything baseball so this decision to not take offers to play was heartbreakingly difficult.

In February of his Senior year he had signed up for tryouts for the NC State Games...a long shot he was told. Being that kid that doesn't give up, he went and even though the other guys towered over him, he had a good day showing them some of his most nasty pitches. Still, he didn't make the cut. Fast forward to June and after all the graduation parties in which he explained to his family and friends why he wouldn't be playing college ball. He got a call from the state games coach. Someone had dropped out and they needed a pitcher...in two days. Would he be interested? That call changed his life.

At the games he pitched fairly well and per usual got a ground ball back to prove his fielding prowess. He was one of two players on the roster that weren't already signed. The phone didn't stop ringing for about a week. Seven days after his appearance in the games, he got the call he had been waiting for from one of his top 3 choices for academics, etc.

For others I'd say, don't give up! Go to camps that have a reputation for having many recruiters there or at the very least go to the camps at your top three schools. Contact the coaches. Leftysideson emailed and called the head coach. There was no doubt in their minds that he wanted to play there. Get on a showcase team with alot of visibility and do it before your Junior season. It seems the best showcases are at the beginning of the summer. Get good grades, Get good grades, Get Good grades. When you are the underdog, you need as many plusses in your pocket as possible. Demonstrate to a team why being a sidearm pitcher is a valuable asset. Look up to guys like Javier Lopez and Darren O'Day who just finished pitching sidearm in a World Series game! Learn to be tough in tough situations and play one pitch at a time. And yes, walk the walk.

Wow - that was an all-time classic story for the hsbbweb. It is basically why we exist. Our community here is most helpful to those underdog players who can play but may not fit the ideal mold. I hope every parent who is fretting and stewing here now because their kids have not received an early offer gets a chance to read your family's story! Simply wonderful!!

PS - people need to realize that the hsbbweb is a blessing but it sometimes can work to people's detriment. People read that kids are signing or verballing a year or two early and it makes them feel inadequate somehow when their kids are not doing the same. The truth is that college success often comes to those kids who want it the most and are willing to pay the price and are willing to battle until someone tells them to hang them up. Develop a plan and stick with it as was described here. Be happy for the other kids who are signing but don't let that deter anyone from executing their own plan. The "Tortoise and the hare" and the "Ugly Duckling" are two stories that I see happening over and over in college baseball. The mind and spirit are the most overlooked tools imho.
Last edited by ClevelandDad
GJ Go Jacks!10+ posts
The closer for my son's team is a right handed submariner. He came to the program as a conventional right handed pitcher but after a tough freshman year of not getting too many people out he dropped down to increase his effectiveness. It took about 18 months for him to iron things out but in his junior year he lead the nation in era for most of the season and made a couple of all american teams. I think his fastball probably tops out at 82-84, but he can hit his spots and his offspeed stuff has a lot of movement. If he is put in a position where he does not have to go thru the lineup more than once he is deadly to both right handed and left handed hitters. He does give up hits but they are invariably soft ground balls back thru the middle. Someone earlier posted about being able to field the position if he is a submarine pithcer and that is absolutely true. I was amazed at how many one and two hoppers came right back to him. I think a lot of hitters change their approach when facing a submariner and just try to make contact and put the ball in play.

I don't know how many schools recruit pitchers who are already throwing submarine style, but I do think a lot of pitchers become that way in college to try to find an edge to get on the field. I would think having that edge already would be something they would find useful.
L Leftysidearmom100+ posts
What's funny is that it seems that every college team has a few of those "exception" stories.

If you want an easy way to get noticed, sorry, I don't believe there is one. The player has to have something special(like being a sidearmer) and has to have the drive to make it happen. It does make it less of an exception though when you know that most D1 schools have something unexpected happen during the summer that opens up a couple of spots. Not giving up and being there when the door opens a little crack can get him in.
L Leftysidearmom100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Go Jacks!:
The closer for my son's team is a right handed submariner. He came to the program as a conventional right handed pitcher but after a tough freshman year of not getting too many people out he dropped down to increase his effectiveness. It took about 18 months for him to iron things out but in his junior year he lead the nation in era for most of the season and made a couple of all american teams. I think his fastball probably tops out at 82-84, but he can hit his spots and his offspeed stuff has a lot of movement. If he is put in a position where he does not have to go thru the lineup more than once he is deadly to both right handed and left handed hitters. He does give up hits but they are invariably soft ground balls back thru the middle. Someone earlier posted about being able to field the position if he is a submarine pithcer and that is absolutely true. I was amazed at how many one and two hoppers came right back to him. I think a lot of hitters change their approach when facing a submariner and just try to make contact and put the ball in play.

I don't know how many schools recruit pitchers who are already throwing submarine style, but I do think a lot of pitchers become that way in college to try to find an edge to get on the field. I would think having that edge already would be something they would find useful.


This is exactly what we've found. He goes through the lineup only once, is tough on righties and lefties as he can place the ball (inside/outside) and has alot of movement. He induces alot of ground balls and can field them well. He needs a very strong 2nd baseman as well as a catcher that can read his sinking ball well. Some games he's brought in for just one or two batters but he doesn't mind. He knows his role and is dedicated to it. As a plus, throwing to at most 9 batters means he has less worry of injury and often plays every game.

I bet we see more and more colleges recruiting sidearm pitchers as they become more prevelant in the big leagues. Before Dennis Eckersley we didn't often see pitchers used strictly as closers and now we've got them in high school. I don't know about where you are but in NC, over the past two years we have been seeing more and more sidearm pitchers in high school(but no lefties so far!).
Last edited by Leftysidearmom
7Steps7Steps100+ posts
Thank you all very much for the comments, especially Leftysidearmom. That is a great story and I'm happy for your son for overcoming the odds.

So what I'm basically drawing is that submariners need: control, movement, fielding efficiency, tenacity on the mound, and a big heart. I definately have the heart and will continue to improve the others. Once again thank you!
L Leftysidearmom100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by 7Steps:
Thank you all very much for the comments, especially Leftysidearmom. That is a great story and I'm happy for your son for overcoming the odds.

So what I'm basically drawing is that submariners need: control, movement, fielding efficiency, tenacity on the mound, and a big heart. I definately have the heart and will continue to improve the others. Once again thank you!



And don't forget, good grades!
HC Hot Corner Dad10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Leftysidearmom:
My son is more sidearm than submarine but I imagine they look at the same things. He is a Freshman at a D1 and throws from 78-82.

Three bagger is right, excellent command of the strike zone and movement is key. Also, these pitchers induce a lot of ground balls so demonstrating not just the ability to hit his spots but also quick fielding is important. Son is used strictly in relief and mostly in specific situations (lefty on lefty, double play needed, etc).

It's also really cool to watch!


My son, a left-handed hitter, happened to play in the same conference as Leftysidearmom's son. You need to understand this is one of the leading baseball conferences in North Carolina and was loaded with D1 pitching prospects last year (several of whom threw upper 80s and low 90s). With that said, the one guy my son hated to face was Leftysidearmom's son. When he came in late in a game I could almost see my son cringe. My son feasted on the hard-throwing studs, but was just trying to survive against the lefty sidearmer.

I'm really happy he got his chance to play at a great school. He absolutely deserved it.
Last edited by Hot Corner Dad

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