Hmmmm: My son has had the same experience with two head coaches for NNHS. I'll bet I know play ball personally.
Kids should be allowed to get a break from their HS program. In our town, Legion and HS are so closely intermingled that it isn't getting away by playing Legion. Not all decisions at the HS are made based on the same criteria from school to school. Travel provides a different experience, usually without baggage or incumbancy.
We need to help teach the kids the love of the game along with the other life lessons. I feel that is probably better accomplished with diversity and not exclusivity. Just my 2 cents...
We need to help teach the kids the love of the game along with the other life lessons. I feel that is probably better accomplished with diversity and not exclusivity. Just my 2 cents...
quote:We need to help teach the kids the love of the game along with the other life lessons. I feel that is probably better accomplished with diversity and not exclusivity.
While I appreciate your opinion I don't believe that exclusivity or diversity establishes a love for the game. Can you extrapolate.
Experience playing with different players ..being teammates now with players you might have played against in the past. Broadening your horizons ..different experiences ...that type of thing ..if i read cplz s comment correctly.
There is an area concerning travel ball that has not been touched on yet on this site. Could the price of gas change the landscape of travel ball? Will 4 or 5 dollar per gallon change how many kids can still drive to east cobb or fla or wherever the teams keep going. Flying is going to become more restricted for some also as 4 major airlines are cutting back 20% of the planes which will eliminate many of the cheap fares for people. Could this present an opportunity for high school summer ball to set up some local tournaments at some local colleges say north central, uic ect, to get more exposure or will the travel teams just stay closer to home? Can you tell I just filled up my car? Is it just me or will thsi start changing some of the travel ball?
Having played both high school summer baseball and travel baseball in the not too distant past (I'm sure the landscape has changes some since the late 90s), I'll share my experience as a player then and as a coach now. To me there are very distinct benefits to both.
Please remember that what I say here is only my experience and I have no doubt that it does not hold true in most situations.
My experience playing travel ball in high school was great. I got to play with and against many players who I now get to watch play on TV. There is no doubt that made me a better player. One of the best ways to improve is to play against competition that is better than you. It was a big time reality check for me when I realized that no matter how good I thought I was, there were 5 people better than me on every team we played. This helped me to realize how hard I had to work to stay competitive with these players. With that being said, travel ball did not seem like 15 players playing for one goal. It seemed like 15 players playing for 15 goals. Additionally, the instruction was not the greatest and we rarely had any practices. I do realize that there are many travel coaches out there who are very qualified baseball coaches and that many organizations do practice all winter long. This is an opportunity I wish I had.
My high school experience was great. I played for two excellent coaches in high school and learned most of what I do now as a coach from them. I always felt that while my teammates in hs were not as good and the competition we played was not as good, we had 18 guys and one goal... win a state championship the following spring. There was a program in place, a philosophy in place, and the coaches worked toward developing each player in the summer.
As a player I just assumed that because I had excellent coaches, every high school had the same. As a coach I now see that is certainly not the case. It is extremely unfortunate that some kids will not get a quality high school baseball experience (please note that I am not talking about getting playing time here, that does not make an experience quality).
One other observation about travel ball. This has happened in a few towns around our area and I know it is creating hostility between parents and coaches. I have no doubt it is happening in high school much bigger than ours. When a kid or group of kids does not make the town's travel team at a younger age, they have the luxury of starting another travel team. (I am not talking about your bigger programs that draw from many schools or are truly select teams) Or they are not happy with the coach of the team they are playing for so they start another team. Whatever the case may be, now there are 2, 3, 4 "travel" teams feeding into one high school. That could make up to 45 players coming into a high school with "travel" experience. Of those 45, a maximum of 12 ever play varsity baseball. I'm sure you can automatically see the rift there. It then turns into the high school coach doesn't know what he's doing etc.
I encourage my players to play travel ball because it will only benefit the player's career. I have no problem with our team being a "developmental" team in the summer. Wins and losses are good, but to me, it's more about developing kids. For example, we have a pretty talented catcher who is playing for two other teams this summer. I will probably not be catching him too much because I know his other coaches will catch him every game and I don't want him catching 100+ games between spring and summer.
Just a few observations. Again, these do not hold true in all situations and I would like to warn people against seeing your situation and making blanket statements against this type of coach or that type of coach.
Please remember that what I say here is only my experience and I have no doubt that it does not hold true in most situations.
My experience playing travel ball in high school was great. I got to play with and against many players who I now get to watch play on TV. There is no doubt that made me a better player. One of the best ways to improve is to play against competition that is better than you. It was a big time reality check for me when I realized that no matter how good I thought I was, there were 5 people better than me on every team we played. This helped me to realize how hard I had to work to stay competitive with these players. With that being said, travel ball did not seem like 15 players playing for one goal. It seemed like 15 players playing for 15 goals. Additionally, the instruction was not the greatest and we rarely had any practices. I do realize that there are many travel coaches out there who are very qualified baseball coaches and that many organizations do practice all winter long. This is an opportunity I wish I had.
My high school experience was great. I played for two excellent coaches in high school and learned most of what I do now as a coach from them. I always felt that while my teammates in hs were not as good and the competition we played was not as good, we had 18 guys and one goal... win a state championship the following spring. There was a program in place, a philosophy in place, and the coaches worked toward developing each player in the summer.
As a player I just assumed that because I had excellent coaches, every high school had the same. As a coach I now see that is certainly not the case. It is extremely unfortunate that some kids will not get a quality high school baseball experience (please note that I am not talking about getting playing time here, that does not make an experience quality).
One other observation about travel ball. This has happened in a few towns around our area and I know it is creating hostility between parents and coaches. I have no doubt it is happening in high school much bigger than ours. When a kid or group of kids does not make the town's travel team at a younger age, they have the luxury of starting another travel team. (I am not talking about your bigger programs that draw from many schools or are truly select teams) Or they are not happy with the coach of the team they are playing for so they start another team. Whatever the case may be, now there are 2, 3, 4 "travel" teams feeding into one high school. That could make up to 45 players coming into a high school with "travel" experience. Of those 45, a maximum of 12 ever play varsity baseball. I'm sure you can automatically see the rift there. It then turns into the high school coach doesn't know what he's doing etc.
I encourage my players to play travel ball because it will only benefit the player's career. I have no problem with our team being a "developmental" team in the summer. Wins and losses are good, but to me, it's more about developing kids. For example, we have a pretty talented catcher who is playing for two other teams this summer. I will probably not be catching him too much because I know his other coaches will catch him every game and I don't want him catching 100+ games between spring and summer.
Just a few observations. Again, these do not hold true in all situations and I would like to warn people against seeing your situation and making blanket statements against this type of coach or that type of coach.
quote:Originally posted by Playball2:quote:We need to help teach the kids the love of the game along with the other life lessons. I feel that is probably better accomplished with diversity and not exclusivity.
While I appreciate your opinion I don't believe that exclusivity or diversity establishes a love for the game. Can you extrapolate.
I agree that neither exclusivity or diversity in and of itself establishes a love for the game, in situations where coaches are trying to be provincial, diversity may be exactly what is called for to maintain the high level of interest needed. In other words, if the player doesn't enjoy or have deep connection playing for his HS coach or team, he should be allowed time away while still practicing his love of the game. That should be paramount.
Hm...as said in Anchorman, gentlemen; "I believe diversity is an old, old wooden ship, that was used in the Civil War era..."
Having coached high school and college baesball for a number of years and now being a cross checker for a MLB organization here in the Midwest, I have to say that times have changed. Just by reading a few of the messages, I can tell who are the coach's and who are the parents. More and more parents are getting involved with how their kids are "marketed" to college coach's. Each year I would receive letters and video of kids throughout the country whom are interested in playing for the particuluar college I coached. That was not a problem, it was the parents who were becoming the problem. Parents must remember that not only are the coach's recruiting the player but the parent(s) as well. There has been numerous occassions in which I will stop recruiting a player because I hear their parents yelling from the stands, bad mouthing coach's moves and players, and going up to their kid while they are on deck or getting ready for the game. We as coach's do not go to your jobs and tell you what to do, or how to perform you jobs.
As far as travelball goes for players to get "exposure" is getting out of hand. If the player is good enough he will get noticed, and word about his ability will spread to college coach's. Parents have to realize that their kid(s) are not all division I players, or get drafted. The high school coach should be "open" to their players playing travel ball, but they should have them for their summer league. They need to work on not only the fundamentals of the game, but start building team chemistry as soon as possible. Like someone mentioned, wins and losses are not important over the summer, its getting their philosophy across to the players. Having talked to numerous coach's who run travelball teams, I find that MOST, not all, have no philosophy and only cared about wins. It seems like every team has a winning record, so who is losing these games? When recruiting a player I am going to go to the high school coach ALL of the time, because they are more involved with the player and have more knowledge of the game. Just a little about what I have been reading here. Not every situation is the same in the summer, but more and more I see too many parents trying to "coach" from the stands and bad mouth moves made by coach's. Just remember, the parent comes with the player when it comes to recruiting.
As far as travelball goes for players to get "exposure" is getting out of hand. If the player is good enough he will get noticed, and word about his ability will spread to college coach's. Parents have to realize that their kid(s) are not all division I players, or get drafted. The high school coach should be "open" to their players playing travel ball, but they should have them for their summer league. They need to work on not only the fundamentals of the game, but start building team chemistry as soon as possible. Like someone mentioned, wins and losses are not important over the summer, its getting their philosophy across to the players. Having talked to numerous coach's who run travelball teams, I find that MOST, not all, have no philosophy and only cared about wins. It seems like every team has a winning record, so who is losing these games? When recruiting a player I am going to go to the high school coach ALL of the time, because they are more involved with the player and have more knowledge of the game. Just a little about what I have been reading here. Not every situation is the same in the summer, but more and more I see too many parents trying to "coach" from the stands and bad mouth moves made by coach's. Just remember, the parent comes with the player when it comes to recruiting.
BC - you make a GREAT point when you talk about how many more kids come to high school believing they are "elite" players because they played on travel teams from the time they were 8 years old... that kind of stuff never used to happen. The travel circuit is getting so watered down with what I would consider B, C and D level teams.
When #1 son played, there were two travel teams to choose from in our local area. By the time #3 came along (a mere nine years later) there were easily 12 teams to choose from, and that's not an exaggeration. And many players went from team to team to team as their level of unhappiness went up, up, up.
In fact, I just heard grousing from one of the dads who started one of those teams at a summer league game last night - son didn't play (very first game of the summer season) so he's ready to have him quit the high school team and dust off the old travel team uniforms and get his "elite" team going AGAIN! It just never ends.
When #1 son played, there were two travel teams to choose from in our local area. By the time #3 came along (a mere nine years later) there were easily 12 teams to choose from, and that's not an exaggeration. And many players went from team to team to team as their level of unhappiness went up, up, up.
In fact, I just heard grousing from one of the dads who started one of those teams at a summer league game last night - son didn't play (very first game of the summer season) so he's ready to have him quit the high school team and dust off the old travel team uniforms and get his "elite" team going AGAIN! It just never ends.
94wolves, I hae always heard what you are saying about recruiting the parents and always beleived it in the past. I am not so sure anymore when I watch the process. So I am sure what you are saying if the parents are too involved you and most college or proscouts would leave say a 6'7" left hander throwing in the 90's? or a power hitting position player with 5 tools? Or nobody stretches the entry requirements for a player with a 18 act? I agree with what you are saying I just don't really beleive it anymore. How about the 2 arizona state palyers that got into a fight on the field before the super regional are the major league teams that drafted them going to give up on them now, didn't think that was much for the team chemistry idea. Once again I like what you are saying I just think many overlook some of the character issues you are descibing.
6'7" lefty throwing in the 90's is a dime a dozen as is a five tool player and character issues may or may not get overlooked. At the high school level a kid with five tools is a low percentage, taking into account the number of kids playing across the nation. Someone with those abilites are obviously going to get drafted. Team chemistry is a major factor at the college level and any level if you want to be successul. The ASU fight was staged among the two players, it was on ESPN the other night. I see where you are coming from, because I see coach's recruit players with character issues, poor grades, etc...As a coach, you have to vision if that player is a "fit" for your program and making sure that player understands what your philosophy is.
I don't know why I am compelled to post to this forum but I am.
I am a parent of a former collegiate baseball player. As a meddling parent, I would like to offer my differing opinion.
If it were solely for High School Baseball, my son wouldn't have made it. Had it not been for his (according to some opinions) "lowly" American Legion baseball coach, my son would not have played collegiate ball. In fact, he had an opportunity to play for one of Chicagoland's "premier" travel programs but instead chose to return to good 'ol American Legion ball because this oft criticized coach brought the fun back to the game and instilled confidence in him once again. That's all he really asked for.
His former travel ball coaches, from his younger days, instilled confidence of his abilities and his character in him regardless of his stature.
Luckily his first high school varsity coach nominated him for the NW suburban baseball tournament his Junior year because things were definately not right his senior year.
His 2nd varsity high school coach only yelled and made light of his and the teams deficiencies and made my son question his abilities. I've found my son doesn't perform well for a "yeller". Practices were unorganized and hitting/fielding stations were unheard of. Pre-game warm up of the throwing arm, which would seem to be a minimum requirement, was limited. Time was not efficiently used. It's sad to say, the younger travelling programs had a better work regimen than the high school varsity team had. At one point, he was told by the coach, who also was the former sophomore coach, "I didn't like you much sophomore year" despite my son performing exceptionally during his sophomore season. In a word, he was "de-moralized" and confused at what to do. His performance on the field lacked and despite my urging him to talk to the coach, he insisted it would only result in retributions from the coach (after all he had told him he hadn't liked him), so he continued his downward spiral. To me, there was no option other than to continue the season and make light of hopefully this being a very bad coach to player match up. To put it simply, this coach was not compatible with my son nor was my son compatible with the coach. This is a situation where it was a blessing for baseball opportunities outside of varsity high school.
The NW Suburban baseball tournament was highlighted by various college coaches and this and a couple of other showcases revealed college interest in my son. Knowing he needed to mature much more at the game led him to Elgin Community College. Thank God for the likes of Coach Angelo, Coach Jakubowski and Coach Kees. These men truly inspired my son to be a complete and mature player while making the game fun, yet competive, once again. As a NJCAA DII program, ECC hasn't captured that elusive national title yet, but with the highly inspirational Coach Angelo, it's only a matter of time.
My son matured at his game at ECC and went on to start at a DI program. He wasn't a great high school player but he was OK. Thanks to ECC he developed and escalated his game to offer him an opportunity to play DI ball while getting a great education. It is my belief that had my son played only high school baseball, he would have never went beyond high school and he wouldn't have earned most of his way through college due to his abilities.
I am not knocking High School coaches. I am very appreciative of high school coaches, espcecially Coach Jakubowski. It's just not a simple formula that, as a nerdy engineer I am would say, you can just "plug and chug" and come up with the magical answer. There is no one right or wrong, it is "to each their own".
I sometimes think "if only" as for my involvement in the whole situation but then again I'm happy I let my son find his own way without my interference. He handled it on his own, made his own choices and I think it made him a better all around player and person. He found the coaches that inspired him and the ones who didn't but regardless, he found his own way. So thank goodness for all coaches as these young folk figure out their plight in life!!! As good a coach as you may be, perhaps you aren't the right coach for everyone.
Sorry for the long ramble.....
I am a parent of a former collegiate baseball player. As a meddling parent, I would like to offer my differing opinion.
If it were solely for High School Baseball, my son wouldn't have made it. Had it not been for his (according to some opinions) "lowly" American Legion baseball coach, my son would not have played collegiate ball. In fact, he had an opportunity to play for one of Chicagoland's "premier" travel programs but instead chose to return to good 'ol American Legion ball because this oft criticized coach brought the fun back to the game and instilled confidence in him once again. That's all he really asked for.
His former travel ball coaches, from his younger days, instilled confidence of his abilities and his character in him regardless of his stature.
Luckily his first high school varsity coach nominated him for the NW suburban baseball tournament his Junior year because things were definately not right his senior year.
His 2nd varsity high school coach only yelled and made light of his and the teams deficiencies and made my son question his abilities. I've found my son doesn't perform well for a "yeller". Practices were unorganized and hitting/fielding stations were unheard of. Pre-game warm up of the throwing arm, which would seem to be a minimum requirement, was limited. Time was not efficiently used. It's sad to say, the younger travelling programs had a better work regimen than the high school varsity team had. At one point, he was told by the coach, who also was the former sophomore coach, "I didn't like you much sophomore year" despite my son performing exceptionally during his sophomore season. In a word, he was "de-moralized" and confused at what to do. His performance on the field lacked and despite my urging him to talk to the coach, he insisted it would only result in retributions from the coach (after all he had told him he hadn't liked him), so he continued his downward spiral. To me, there was no option other than to continue the season and make light of hopefully this being a very bad coach to player match up. To put it simply, this coach was not compatible with my son nor was my son compatible with the coach. This is a situation where it was a blessing for baseball opportunities outside of varsity high school.
The NW Suburban baseball tournament was highlighted by various college coaches and this and a couple of other showcases revealed college interest in my son. Knowing he needed to mature much more at the game led him to Elgin Community College. Thank God for the likes of Coach Angelo, Coach Jakubowski and Coach Kees. These men truly inspired my son to be a complete and mature player while making the game fun, yet competive, once again. As a NJCAA DII program, ECC hasn't captured that elusive national title yet, but with the highly inspirational Coach Angelo, it's only a matter of time.
My son matured at his game at ECC and went on to start at a DI program. He wasn't a great high school player but he was OK. Thanks to ECC he developed and escalated his game to offer him an opportunity to play DI ball while getting a great education. It is my belief that had my son played only high school baseball, he would have never went beyond high school and he wouldn't have earned most of his way through college due to his abilities.
I am not knocking High School coaches. I am very appreciative of high school coaches, espcecially Coach Jakubowski. It's just not a simple formula that, as a nerdy engineer I am would say, you can just "plug and chug" and come up with the magical answer. There is no one right or wrong, it is "to each their own".
I sometimes think "if only" as for my involvement in the whole situation but then again I'm happy I let my son find his own way without my interference. He handled it on his own, made his own choices and I think it made him a better all around player and person. He found the coaches that inspired him and the ones who didn't but regardless, he found his own way. So thank goodness for all coaches as these young folk figure out their plight in life!!! As good a coach as you may be, perhaps you aren't the right coach for everyone.
Sorry for the long ramble.....
quote:Originally posted by 94Wolves:
As far as travelball goes for players to get "exposure" is getting out of hand. If the player is good enough he will get noticed, and word about his ability will spread to college coach's.
That simply is not true. I know a kid who was his D1 universities opening day starter this year, but as a junior in HS (which is when most players are scouted for the fall signing period their senior year), with an ERA under 1.00 and touching 90 mph, he couldn't break into the starting rotation. Part of the problem might have been that the slot in the rotation he might have filled, was used by a player who's father sat in the dugout with the coaches. His parents did complain to the AD about parents in the dugout and that got the kid blackballed so the coach didn't send him to the Stevenson showcase. In other words, going into his senior year, no one heard of this kid because his HS coach wouldn't play him. Yet he was the only 07 player on that team that was eventually offered a number of D1 scholarships. So your characterization that, "if they are good enough, they will be found", based on no exposure through showcases or travel, simply doesn't hold water. This kid got his scholarship offers after attending a couple of showcases early in his senior year, and with the help of his travel coach (SPARKY).
94Wolves, your characterization of the situations were not unbiased. They very much seemed pro coach/anti parent, which would be expected considering your coaching background. However, they are not as broadly correct as you have painted them, IMHO.
quote:Originally posted by 94Wolves:
More and more parents are getting involved with how their kids are "marketed" to college coach's. Each year I would receive letters and video of kids throughout the country whom are interested in playing for the particuluar college I coached. That was not a problem, it was the parents who were becoming the problem. Parents must remember that not only are the coach's recruiting the player but the parent(s) as well. There has been numerous occassions in which I will stop recruiting a player because I hear their parents yelling from the stands, bad mouthing coach's moves and players, and going up to their kid while they are on deck or getting ready for the game. We as coach's do not go to your jobs and tell you what to do, or how to perform you jobs.
They need to work on not only the fundamentals of the game, but start building team chemistry as soon as possible. Like someone mentioned, wins and losses are not important over the summer, its getting their philosophy across to the players. Having talked to numerous coach's who run travelball teams, I find that MOST, not all, have no philosophy and only cared about wins. It seems like every team has a winning record, so who is losing these games? When recruiting a player I am going to go to the high school coach ALL of the time, because they are more involved with the player and have more knowledge of the game. Just a little about what I have been reading here. Not every situation is the same in the summer, but more and more I see too many parents trying to "coach" from the stands and bad mouth moves made by coach's. Just remember, the parent comes with the player when it comes to recruiting.
This posting was very widely and unfairly one-sided.
First, not all parents who are involved are yelling from the stands and telling the coaches what to do. In any aspect of your kid's life, a parents job is to guide them. It would be very foolish for a parent to step aside and let them go one-on-one with a scout or recruiter. No one has the best interests of a kid in mind more than a parent. That goes for baseball as well as anything else.
To say that a travel coach is less likely to spend time on fundementals than a HS Coach is a ridiculous statement. The travel Coaches my son has had have spent an infinite more amount of time on teaching the game than ANY of their HS Coaches. The same goes for chemistry. Travel Teams my kids have played for had less jealousy, more support of each other and better comaraderie than any HS Team they have played on. I love HS Baseball and I think it is tragic that in the near future it is going to become less and less important in the picture of big-time baseball prospects. Not all (and in my opinion not many) HS Coaches are as dedicated and as passionate as some of our posters such as Coach B of Traid and Edwardsville and Coach Stringer of Lane Tech also Coach Belo at Palatine who not only is dedicated to his own players, but I have heard of him helping many who compete agaisnt him.
If you are fortunate enough to have such a coach at your HS, yes you may step back a bit and let it happen....but you are more likely to be in a spot where you better guide him , because nobody else may be.
Like I said, NOT EVERY situation is the same, or what I was talking about. I was stating my opinion, what most college coach's look for, trying to help parents a little. BIGMW said it perfect, he son went to a JUCO and developed into a DI player because of the coach's, his kid made the choice. NOT EVERY KID is going to get drafted or go DI out of high school. And like I stated, the player and coach have to see if they are going to fit into the program. I have seen players so "no" to me because they didn't see themselves there. Throwing 90 and an ERA under 1.00 and didn't play? Should have transfered then, and hey, hats off to Sparky for helping out...I am not ANTI-PARENT AT ALL, trying to let people see what we looked/looking for....everyone is different
Wow, seems like I touched a nerve here. I did not say ALL parents do this, and all coach's are different, please read more carefully. Its great to hear that the coach's you mentioned are doing this, that is what they are suppose to do and WANT/LOVE doing. But what I have been reading is that most parents are "ripping" on coach's for what takes place over the summer, and now support for some. Someone posted that coach's are going to tournaments on weekends to keep players from travelball, whats wrong with that? It shows dedication and a passion to make their HS team better. Shouldn't one of the goals of the team be to reach the state finals? That runs into the summer travel season, as parents are you going to tell your kid don't go because you have a tournament that weekend for travelball???
This has to be one of the best threads I have read in a long time.
One thing that I keep thinking about when I read all these posts is something that a friend of mine told me a long time ago. He said there is a "bottom 10%" in every profession. Unfortunately, those are the ones we tend to remember the most. There are bad travel coaches, high school coaches, college coaches, scouts, parents, etc.
My college baseball experience was a really negative one but I do not assume that ALL coaches are like that. Maybe it was a little me & a little of them. They were not angels, believe me.
My older son's experience in the non-collge route has been VERY positive but that does not mean that everyone who goes that way has had the same experience. He has seen many of his team mates released after playing just one summer! I am sure they are not happy.
However, one thing I would add to this whole baseball experience. It just takes ONE person to see your kid and believe that he has the talent to play. If you don't go out to get some exposure & that probably means more than high school, fewer people are going to see your kid. It is somewhat of a numbers game. Yes, I realize that you can't do everything.
One final comment. The local scout that drafted my kid brought a big shot to see him in the spring (high school). He didn't even get in the game - all he did was throw a bullpen. However, if my kid hadn't been in Jupiter, FL playing in a non-high school event at the start of his senior year, would they have been there in the spring? I don't think anyone can really say. My opinion - probably not with the same degree of interest.
One thing that I keep thinking about when I read all these posts is something that a friend of mine told me a long time ago. He said there is a "bottom 10%" in every profession. Unfortunately, those are the ones we tend to remember the most. There are bad travel coaches, high school coaches, college coaches, scouts, parents, etc.
My college baseball experience was a really negative one but I do not assume that ALL coaches are like that. Maybe it was a little me & a little of them. They were not angels, believe me.
My older son's experience in the non-collge route has been VERY positive but that does not mean that everyone who goes that way has had the same experience. He has seen many of his team mates released after playing just one summer! I am sure they are not happy.
However, one thing I would add to this whole baseball experience. It just takes ONE person to see your kid and believe that he has the talent to play. If you don't go out to get some exposure & that probably means more than high school, fewer people are going to see your kid. It is somewhat of a numbers game. Yes, I realize that you can't do everything.
One final comment. The local scout that drafted my kid brought a big shot to see him in the spring (high school). He didn't even get in the game - all he did was throw a bullpen. However, if my kid hadn't been in Jupiter, FL playing in a non-high school event at the start of his senior year, would they have been there in the spring? I don't think anyone can really say. My opinion - probably not with the same degree of interest.
Wolves
What college did you coach at ?
What college did you coach at ?
quote:How about the 2 arizona state palyers that got into a fight on the field before the super regional are the major league teams that drafted them going to give up on them now, didn't think that was much for the team chemistry idea.
Come to find out, that fight was staged for team chemistry, how is that for irony?
quote:Originally posted by 94Wolves:
When recruiting a player I am going to go to the high school coach ALL of the time, because they are more involved with the player
To expand on this thought a little. There is so much more that goes in to playing college baseball than what you see on the field. Playing college baseball has to be the most demanding college sport. College presidents don't want a football playoff because of missed class time, yet they don't seem to have a problem when baseball players are missing class Tuesday through Thursday. There were times in college when I went an entire month without making it to any class after noon.
If the high school coach teaches at the school, they should have a good idea if a kid can handle the demands of baseball AND school. Many travel coaches will only see how a player is on the field and may not know if they could hack it at a DI or DII academically. This is in no way a knock on them, it is just the difference in the two jobs.
[quote]Posts: 485 | Location: illinois | Registered: November 29, 2005[/quot
Another baseball experience-Son attended large highschool with several players equally qualified to play first string. It was difficult to get noticed or recognized. We believe without the summer travel baseball tournaments would not of been recruited for a D1 team.
Another baseball experience-Son attended large highschool with several players equally qualified to play first string. It was difficult to get noticed or recognized. We believe without the summer travel baseball tournaments would not of been recruited for a D1 team.
As a varsity head coach for the past ten years and coaching at the high school or college level for the past fifteen I can count on no fingers the number of times a travel coach has come to me to talk about utilizing a pitcher of mine. I actively talk to the players that play travel ball and I am very accommodating as to their schedules. Summer HS baseball can't compete with the competition that these kids see on the weekends with their travel teams for the most part. We do utilize the summer to see EVERYONE that we have kept play. We play daily DH's M - Th with an occassional day off to rest since most kids are being pulled left and right by all of their sport's coaches over the summer.
I don't have a problem with travel coaches that have the kids best interests in mind and know how to teach the game. I have a problem when a pitcher comes to me on Monday after having thrown 10+ innings in one day because his team kept winning. This obviously doesn't have the kids best interests in mind. To all the truly great travel coaches, keep up the good work. I appreciate your time and effort in helping out with our players.
The issue I have with travel is the fact that you have 8 year olds playing 60 games per summer and start their practices in November. Most of these kids get burned out and lose the passion for the game at an early age. I have seen some of the younger travel games and most are coached by parents that have limited coaching or baseball experience. Some are coached by excellent baseball minds, but most are not. Travel ball is not necessarily needed to create a great ball player especially at 8 years old. Solid fundamentals and knowledge of the game as necessary as well as lots of passion and hustle. Many of the younger players that I see at these games look as if they forced to be out there. Walking to their positions etc.
I have also seen first hand players and parents that think just because they have played and or coached travel ball that their son is superior to other players. I have had many in house players go on to star on my team while Johnny Travel ball with his three uniforms, travel bag, and trip to Cooperstown was cut because he just doesn't know how to play the game. Just because a father starts a travel team to keep all of his kid's friends together doesn't make this team competitive of even any good. Just because they rent a cage for two hours a week doens't mean that they are makeing their players any better. You can't just throw money around and expect results.
As a HS coach I encourage my kids to always work to make themselves better. I always challenge them to work harder and smarter. They are encouraged to play other sports and to compete on the weekends with their travel teams. I encourage them to play at a college that suits their ability and needs.
We as coaches have to understand that without the kids, where are we? If we as HS coaches pull on the kids and if the travel coaches do the same, and the parents, and the baseketball coaches, and football coaches, what do we get? We get a kid that wants out.
Just my opinion.
I don't have a problem with travel coaches that have the kids best interests in mind and know how to teach the game. I have a problem when a pitcher comes to me on Monday after having thrown 10+ innings in one day because his team kept winning. This obviously doesn't have the kids best interests in mind. To all the truly great travel coaches, keep up the good work. I appreciate your time and effort in helping out with our players.
The issue I have with travel is the fact that you have 8 year olds playing 60 games per summer and start their practices in November. Most of these kids get burned out and lose the passion for the game at an early age. I have seen some of the younger travel games and most are coached by parents that have limited coaching or baseball experience. Some are coached by excellent baseball minds, but most are not. Travel ball is not necessarily needed to create a great ball player especially at 8 years old. Solid fundamentals and knowledge of the game as necessary as well as lots of passion and hustle. Many of the younger players that I see at these games look as if they forced to be out there. Walking to their positions etc.
I have also seen first hand players and parents that think just because they have played and or coached travel ball that their son is superior to other players. I have had many in house players go on to star on my team while Johnny Travel ball with his three uniforms, travel bag, and trip to Cooperstown was cut because he just doesn't know how to play the game. Just because a father starts a travel team to keep all of his kid's friends together doesn't make this team competitive of even any good. Just because they rent a cage for two hours a week doens't mean that they are makeing their players any better. You can't just throw money around and expect results.
As a HS coach I encourage my kids to always work to make themselves better. I always challenge them to work harder and smarter. They are encouraged to play other sports and to compete on the weekends with their travel teams. I encourage them to play at a college that suits their ability and needs.
We as coaches have to understand that without the kids, where are we? If we as HS coaches pull on the kids and if the travel coaches do the same, and the parents, and the baseketball coaches, and football coaches, what do we get? We get a kid that wants out.
Just my opinion.
quote:Originally posted by DC33:
As a varsity head coach for the past ten years and coaching at the high school or college level for the past fifteen I can count on no fingers the number of times a travel coach has come to me to talk about utilizing a pitcher of mine. I actively talk to the players that play travel ball and I am very accommodating as to their schedules. Summer HS baseball can't compete with the competition that these kids see on the weekends with their travel teams for the most part. We do utilize the summer to see EVERYONE that we have kept play. We play daily DH's M - Th with an occassional day off to rest since most kids are being pulled left and right by all of their sport's coaches over the summer.
I don't have a problem with travel coaches that have the kids best interests in mind and know how to teach the game. I have a problem when a pitcher comes to me on Monday after having thrown 10+ innings in one day because his team kept winning. This obviously doesn't have the kids best interests in mind. To all the truly great travel coaches, keep up the good work. I appreciate your time and effort in helping out with our players.
The issue I have with travel is the fact that you have 8 year olds playing 60 games per summer and start their practices in November. Most of these kids get burned out and lose the passion for the game at an early age. I have seen some of the younger travel games and most are coached by parents that have limited coaching or baseball experience. Some are coached by excellent baseball minds, but most are not. Travel ball is not necessarily needed to create a great ball player especially at 8 years old. Solid fundamentals and knowledge of the game as necessary as well as lots of passion and hustle. Many of the younger players that I see at these games look as if they forced to be out there. Walking to their positions etc.
I have also seen first hand players and parents that think just because they have played and or coached travel ball that their son is superior to other players. I have had many in house players go on to star on my team while Johnny Travel ball with his three uniforms, travel bag, and trip to Cooperstown was cut because he just doesn't know how to play the game. Just because a father starts a travel team to keep all of his kid's friends together doesn't make this team competitive of even any good. Just because they rent a cage for two hours a week doens't mean that they are makeing their players any better. You can't just throw money around and expect results.
As a HS coach I encourage my kids to always work to make themselves better. I always challenge them to work harder and smarter. They are encouraged to play other sports and to compete on the weekends with their travel teams. I encourage them to play at a college that suits their ability and needs.
We as coaches have to understand that without the kids, where are we? If we as HS coaches pull on the kids and if the travel coaches do the same, and the parents, and the baseketball coaches, and football coaches, what do we get? We get a kid that wants out.
Just my opinion.
Very well said, DC33...I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said, even if I am a 15U travel coach. It's apparent that my initial post has caused everyone to step back and consider both sides of this issue and, most importantly, how our actions impact these fine young athletes. If I could condense this whole discussion down to one word, it would have to be COOPERATION. Without that, there will forever be this wedge between high school and travel coaches over the summer months. I am doing my part, as is DC33 and a number of other high school coaches on this board. Getting the other travel and high school coaches to do the same is the next step.
As a parent of a kid who recently went through the process of deciding what to do this summer I have a couple of thoughts.
1. Wouldn't it be nice if there was something between summer high school ball and the more intense travel league schedules? My son just finished his junior year--he had a good year, made all conference--but when summer rolled around he said he didn't want to play for his travel team any more because it was too much of a commitment--travel every weekend, etc. the local legion team asked him to play, but it was pretty much the same schedule wise. he likes baseball, but also wants to have a life. ( the thought of not having to spend another night at the Super8 in Quincy also brings me some happiness as well.) but what about it, shouldn't there be good teams that stay close to home yet play serious summer ball?
1. Wouldn't it be nice if there was something between summer high school ball and the more intense travel league schedules? My son just finished his junior year--he had a good year, made all conference--but when summer rolled around he said he didn't want to play for his travel team any more because it was too much of a commitment--travel every weekend, etc. the local legion team asked him to play, but it was pretty much the same schedule wise. he likes baseball, but also wants to have a life. ( the thought of not having to spend another night at the Super8 in Quincy also brings me some happiness as well.) but what about it, shouldn't there be good teams that stay close to home yet play serious summer ball?
Wow--haven't been to this site in a long, long time-but see that things haven't changed..
all i know is after reading all of the comments it is amazing on a few peoples comments how many times the word 'I" WAS USED.... ENOUGH SAID...
all i know is after reading all of the comments it is amazing on a few peoples comments how many times the word 'I" WAS USED.... ENOUGH SAID...
Im going to go out on a limb here...i dont believe 94wolves is who he says he is . kind of ridiculous comments from someone who says he was high school/college coach and now scout...highly doubtful.
Woodly, "I" am not sure what you mean by this. I think the use of I is appropriate when describing a situation. If you are thinking that there are some coaches, players, and parents alike that think in terms of "I" you would be correct. Not "all" or "most" but there are "some" out there. Just using the term however doesn't make someone an "I" or "Me" person. What has kept you away from our fine board for so long?
quote:Im going to go out on a limb here...i dont believe 94wolves is who he says he is .
You've gone to far out on the limb sulli. Remember it is not the fall the kills you, it's the quick stop.
quote:Originally posted by DC33:
Woodly, "I" am not sure what you mean by this. I think the use of I is appropriate when describing a situation. If you are thinking that there are some coaches, players, and parents alike that think in terms of "I" you would be correct. Not "all" or "most" but there are "some" out there. Just using the term however doesn't make someone an "I" or "Me" person. What has kept you away from our fine board for so long?
Some individuals egos get in the way of seeing the clear picture of what this is suppose to be all about-- GIVING THE KIDS an opportunity that most posters on this website never had-- A chance to improve their game, an opporunity to get seen by the decision makers, and most of all----LET THE KIDS HAVE FUN........IT IS NOT A JOB!!!! If they want to play 3 sports, let them play 3 sports--if they want to play travel ball---let them play travel ball and if they want to play hs summer ball- let them play summer ball---
THE KIDS SHOULD HAVE THE FINAL choice
It is their life--- Guidance is great- but pressure does no one any good... and all parties involved as far as adults should accept what that player decides to do with his LIFE!
The daily grind is coming in their college years--all programs can help the player get to the peak of his/her game--but ultimately it is the player who MAKES the final choice of how far they advance in the game---Not adults...
I have stayed away from the site due to all the fighting between COACHES...it is nice reading but do not want to be drawn into the controversy anymore
quote:A chance to improve their game, an opporunity to get seen by the decision makers, and most of all----LET THE KIDS HAVE FUN.
I think you encapsulated all of the assumptions and criticisms of this thread that lead to the frustration of HS coach.
Tell me what happens we they don't improve? Then what? What happens when none of the decision makers call? Then what? What happens when the experience is no longer fun? Then what?
Believe me Woodly this is not as uncommon as you may think?
BC Rockets...you are probably right however, our organization has strict academic requirements to play on our teams. Even though there are no grades, classes in summer..we hold our players to a high standard on and off the field.
We have in fact cut a left handed pitcher (7 years ago) who going into his second year in High School was sitting at 83. Turns out we were right, he did not graduate High School.
We have in fact cut a left handed pitcher (7 years ago) who going into his second year in High School was sitting at 83. Turns out we were right, he did not graduate High School.
TNHN11, I am not sure how to read your response.
Playball, BC said most summer coaches would not know how a player would respond academically in a D1 or D11 program and I said you might be right however, our organization has strict acedemic requirements and we hold our players to a very high standard during their school year and when they are with us.
Playball...I also agree with you about 94....
Playball
As far as i know im still alive --woke up today just like always and said my prayers for some of you HS Coaches .
As far as i know im still alive --woke up today just like always and said my prayers for some of you HS Coaches .
Sulli, appreciate the Karma, add a 6'3 LHP with great command in your prayers. Thanks
O'Fallon wins National High School Baseball title
Panthers shut out Louisville's Male High 6-0
BY NORM SANDERS
News-Democrat
In what he says is becoming more than a statewide trend, O'Fallon High baseball coach Jason Portz and his staff are keeping his Panthers together on teams throughout the summer.
The Panthers' varsity team, one of three O'Fallon clubs competing in the Southwest Baseball League, capped off a 6-0 run Sunday by winning the National High School Baseball Tournament in Louisville, Ky.
The 40-team tournament featured some of the top teams in the Midwest and teams from as far south as Alabama.
"There were a lot of quality kids from programs that are doing the same things with their kids in the summer that we're doing" said Portz, whose team is 11-3 this summer. "Their high-school coaches are coaching their kids in the summer, just like we're doing.
"This gives our kids a chance to play against kids their own age and measure themselves against top talent."
The 40-team tournament included 10 pools of four teams each from Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Ohio and other states, with the top 16 teams advancing to a single-elimination bracketed tourney.
O'Fallon blasted Louisville (Ky.) Male High 13-1 in the championship game Sunday.
"There was a storm and they were talking about calling the tournament -- and we would have lost the tournament on fewest runs allowed criteria," said Portz, whose team was leading 2-1 in the third inning.
But the rains finally stopped and the field was playable, so action continued. O'Fallon's bats were anything but soggy after that, pounding out 11 runs in the next four innings to claim the championship.
Kyle Stanton was 2-for-4 with two RBIs, Nick Johnson added a double, triple and four RBIs, while Sonnie Rollins had two doubles and four RBIs.
Pitcher Dan Summerlin allowed three hits and one run. The Panthers won the tourney despite playing without star shortstop Keith Wolf, who was at a prospects showcase at Virginia Tech.
"We had quality pitching all week," Portz said. "In a tournament like that where you play six games, it's all about having guys go out there and throw strikes and limit their pitch counts as much as possible."
Portz said he and his staff enjoy being able to continue working on fundamentals throughout the summer, while also getting a head start and finding new starters to fill holes from graduation.
"It's great. I couldn't imagine doing anything else with our kids right now," Portz said. "It's what the trend is throughout the state and what they do in Chicago with their kids. The Chicago Baseball Coaches Association puts on a summer state series and a summer state tournament.
"It's the way they run their programs predominantly in the southern half of the country."
O'Fallon knocked off 2008 Kentucky state champion Pleasure Ridge Park 11-7 in the semifinals. Junior Seth Wild got the pitching win as the Panthers broke a 3-3 tie with four runs in the fourth.
A two-run homer by Kyle Stanton keyed the fourth-inning uprising, while catcher Nick Tindall added a three-run double in the sixth and drove in five runs. Second baseman Rob Berger was 3-for-4 with an RBI.
The tightest contest was a 4-3 quarterfinal win over Perry Meridian High from Indianapolis. O'Fallon trailed 3-2 heading into the bottom of the ninth, then battled back to win it on a two-out infield single by Austin McCarter.
Jon Levin, Miles Quintal, Sonnie Rollins and Brent Watts also picked up pitching wins during the tourney.
Quintal helped shut down Alabama state champion Hoover High 8-3 in the tourney opener. Hoover gained national popularity when its football team was featured on MTV's popular "Two-A-Days" reality show.
Portz's entire coaching staff -- including Joe Bauer, Brad Dickerson, Jim Eden, Nick Seibert, Scott Seipp and Kellen Kettwich --take shifts helping during the summer.
"It's laid back, a lot of teaching," Portz said. "Wins and losses don't mean a whole lot. It's just a matter of going out and teaching and playing fundamental baseball.
"It really cuts down on our learning curve and whenever we're getting into our spring season, we're getting off on the right foot."
Among the other area high school coaches who also have teams in the Southwest League are Mark Vogel (Waterloo), Fred Blumberg (Freeburg), Joel Hawkins (Highland), Andy Skaer (Gibault), Jason Smith (Marissa), Don Eddy (Mascoutah), Drew Schneider (Red Bud) and Mike Arbuthnot (Roxana).
Panthers shut out Louisville's Male High 6-0
BY NORM SANDERS
News-Democrat
In what he says is becoming more than a statewide trend, O'Fallon High baseball coach Jason Portz and his staff are keeping his Panthers together on teams throughout the summer.
The Panthers' varsity team, one of three O'Fallon clubs competing in the Southwest Baseball League, capped off a 6-0 run Sunday by winning the National High School Baseball Tournament in Louisville, Ky.
The 40-team tournament featured some of the top teams in the Midwest and teams from as far south as Alabama.
"There were a lot of quality kids from programs that are doing the same things with their kids in the summer that we're doing" said Portz, whose team is 11-3 this summer. "Their high-school coaches are coaching their kids in the summer, just like we're doing.
"This gives our kids a chance to play against kids their own age and measure themselves against top talent."
The 40-team tournament included 10 pools of four teams each from Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Ohio and other states, with the top 16 teams advancing to a single-elimination bracketed tourney.
O'Fallon blasted Louisville (Ky.) Male High 13-1 in the championship game Sunday.
"There was a storm and they were talking about calling the tournament -- and we would have lost the tournament on fewest runs allowed criteria," said Portz, whose team was leading 2-1 in the third inning.
But the rains finally stopped and the field was playable, so action continued. O'Fallon's bats were anything but soggy after that, pounding out 11 runs in the next four innings to claim the championship.
Kyle Stanton was 2-for-4 with two RBIs, Nick Johnson added a double, triple and four RBIs, while Sonnie Rollins had two doubles and four RBIs.
Pitcher Dan Summerlin allowed three hits and one run. The Panthers won the tourney despite playing without star shortstop Keith Wolf, who was at a prospects showcase at Virginia Tech.
"We had quality pitching all week," Portz said. "In a tournament like that where you play six games, it's all about having guys go out there and throw strikes and limit their pitch counts as much as possible."
Portz said he and his staff enjoy being able to continue working on fundamentals throughout the summer, while also getting a head start and finding new starters to fill holes from graduation.
"It's great. I couldn't imagine doing anything else with our kids right now," Portz said. "It's what the trend is throughout the state and what they do in Chicago with their kids. The Chicago Baseball Coaches Association puts on a summer state series and a summer state tournament.
"It's the way they run their programs predominantly in the southern half of the country."
O'Fallon knocked off 2008 Kentucky state champion Pleasure Ridge Park 11-7 in the semifinals. Junior Seth Wild got the pitching win as the Panthers broke a 3-3 tie with four runs in the fourth.
A two-run homer by Kyle Stanton keyed the fourth-inning uprising, while catcher Nick Tindall added a three-run double in the sixth and drove in five runs. Second baseman Rob Berger was 3-for-4 with an RBI.
The tightest contest was a 4-3 quarterfinal win over Perry Meridian High from Indianapolis. O'Fallon trailed 3-2 heading into the bottom of the ninth, then battled back to win it on a two-out infield single by Austin McCarter.
Jon Levin, Miles Quintal, Sonnie Rollins and Brent Watts also picked up pitching wins during the tourney.
Quintal helped shut down Alabama state champion Hoover High 8-3 in the tourney opener. Hoover gained national popularity when its football team was featured on MTV's popular "Two-A-Days" reality show.
Portz's entire coaching staff -- including Joe Bauer, Brad Dickerson, Jim Eden, Nick Seibert, Scott Seipp and Kellen Kettwich --take shifts helping during the summer.
"It's laid back, a lot of teaching," Portz said. "Wins and losses don't mean a whole lot. It's just a matter of going out and teaching and playing fundamental baseball.
"It really cuts down on our learning curve and whenever we're getting into our spring season, we're getting off on the right foot."
Among the other area high school coaches who also have teams in the Southwest League are Mark Vogel (Waterloo), Fred Blumberg (Freeburg), Joel Hawkins (Highland), Andy Skaer (Gibault), Jason Smith (Marissa), Don Eddy (Mascoutah), Drew Schneider (Red Bud) and Mike Arbuthnot (Roxana).
Congrats to O'Fallen. What a great experience for those kids. We took our Lockport team down there back in 2004 and faced some quality competition and had a great experience.
Looks like summer high school ball does provide some good competition. And imagine that.... the kids actually get coached up!
Looks like summer high school ball does provide some good competition. And imagine that.... the kids actually get coached up!