SUMMER COACH PROBLEM

Do you ask them how many innings they threw? I would think that most would be honest about that. I kept informal track of our pitchers this year and it was pretty easy to just recall from memory who was in what game.

Are you suggesting that they tend to lie on the low side about how many innings they threw? I'd think they would tend to inflate the number to make themselves seem more valuable, if anything.

As asummer coach and not necessarily seeing every kid on our roster play HS ball in the spring it is quite difficult to keep tabs on their total activity

As for innings pitched some keep the number down and others elevate the number

If the high school coach was legit he should have kept stats on players (ever wonder how those college SIDs get those stats), ask for them.

Why would anyone not be honest about how much work they put in on the mound? Why would a HS coach not be honest with you? Are you suggesting that kids lie as well as HS coaches?

If pitchers are coming to you and have been overworked, then YOU are not doing YOUR homework.

Some kids will say what they have to in order to get more innings. There are HS coaches who won't talk to summer coaches.

Good point I didn't think about that.

However, not sure why this would be a problem.

Didn't the OP state in another topic that it's time to stop babying pitcher's arms and time to push them to the limit? Also stated was that "HS kids today certainly can pitch more innings than they do", and reminded about what ML pitchers used to do (300 innings).

Why would the OP be concerned about whether they were overworked if he stated the above?

TPM

Your venom is now dripping down your chin

You are beginning to really show your covers--may be that it is term for youn to nsend one of your infamous PM's/emails

Trhit
it's a valid observation. In back to back posts you are concerned that pitchers are being babied and then in another concerned about overuse.

They are babied in that they are not trained or ready to go a full game---they are overused because HS coaches do not give them proper rest between starts and they abuse the arms -- I saw one pitcher who started a playoff game and after two innings rain began---three hour rain delay and the same pitcher returned to the mound.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
TPM

Your venom is now dripping down your chin

You are beginning to really show your covers--may be that it is term for youn to nsend one of your infamous PM's/emails

TR,
As observed by someone else, you are very inconsistant in what you have posted. First we baby them, now you are concerned about over use. Perhaps you see this as venom, I just see it as confusing. Which is it? I am going to demand from you what you demand from others, explain yourself, why not answer the questions asked of you (not just by me but others).

Stop with the freakin pm stuff. I will say what I have to right here, you seem to like to tell others how inexperienced they are, often, yet I don't see much helpful advice, often, but rather lots of negative posts, often, about players, parents, etc. You bully certain people who post here, yet it's not ok to question what you post?

TR,

Why start with the premise that anyone would lie?

Why make blanket statements about coaches and pitchers? Most HS coaches take care of players and arms.

You're kinda bouncing all over the place here.

Read closely what I post
I have differentiated between babying and overuse

You can be babied and still be overused===overuse has to do with going the distance and not be stressed because you are conditioned to it

Still not making yourself clear, you did say that HS players can still pitch more innings than they do. More innings than age appropriate is overuse, not just putting back a starter after a rain delay.
Why would you all of a sudden be concerned that a HS player or coach would lie about innings, if you feel that HS players should pitch more innings?

How can one be babied and still overused?

I find it very interesting not one coach has responded to your original question.

I think the summer coach's responsibility is to be responsible given the available information.

If people lie to you and injuries result, personally I would regard that as tragic, but not my responsibility.

Generally, though, I try to know exactly what went on in the spring with our players. There aren't that many and most are nearby anyway so I can see their outings reported in newspaper line scores at least. The few out-of-towners, I just check in during the spring to see how things are going.

TPM

Read all my posts--then post

CPLZ


It can happen with your summer/fall team as well--we had a pitcher this fall who unknownst to either myself or my staff was pitching in another league as well--he came in one Sunday and pitched a complete game and pitched well--after the game we found out he had pitched the day before--what made it worse his father allowed it !!!

I don't see CPLZ in this discussion. Am I missing something???

quote:

Originally posted by Baseballdad1228:
I don't see CPLZ in this discussion. Am I missing something???

I don't see him either.
TR, perhaps you need to read a bit more carefully, and not tell others they haven't!

so what your saying is pitchers should be trained to go longer in games but still should be mindful to get appropriate rest between appearances?

I don't disagree with that.

quote:

Originally posted by cball:
so what your saying is pitchers should be trained to go longer in games but still should be mindful to get appropriate rest between appearances?

I don't disagree with that.

Is that what he meant? That isn't something new, is it? Of course they should be trained to go longer in games and still get appropriate rest between starts. Who needs you to explain that to us?

TPM,
I have been reading your post for several years. Let me just say "Amen Sister"

quote:

Originally posted by MSgrits:
TPM,
I have been reading your post for several years. Let me just say "Amen Sister"

Thanks, and I can almost 100% assure you that you and I aren't the only ones who feel this way, sisters and brothers included!

If you were a travel team coach, or had ever dealt with HS coaches (other than the one who coached your son), you would know the answer to your questions. There are a lot of bad coaches out there. And bad coaches lie. They will abuse arms, but don't want to admit it. Some keep good stats. Some keep bogus stats. Some keep no stats at all. Some willingly share information. Some don't. Kids also lie. Not all of them, and not yours of course, but they do lie. That's why TRhit addressed his post to travel coaches, not overinvolved mommas that never even coached a t-ball game, but still call their kid's HS/college/minor league coaches 3 times a day to share their expertise.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
If the high school coach was legit he should have kept stats on players (ever wonder how those college SIDs get those stats), ask for them.

Why would anyone not be honest about how much work they put in on the mound? Why would a HS coach not be honest with you? Are you suggesting that kids lie as well as HS coaches?

If pitchers are coming to you and have been overworked, then YOU are not doing YOUR homework.

MTH

At least you get where I am coming from

Thanx

quote:

Originally posted by MTH:
If you were a travel team coach, or had ever dealt with HS coaches (other than the one who coached your son), you would know the answer to your questions.

No kidding, I could have told him that and I am just a momma. Are you saying something is wrong with being one? Do you think that just being a mom means you don't know much? That's the problem here I guess, you guys think because you are a man, woman's opinions or input means nothing.

It doesn't really take an experienced coach, who claims so much experience to figure it out, does it?

I am saying that love em or hate em, people like TRhit, Coach May, Midlo, etc. are uniquely qualified to ask and answer questions related to travel ball and HS coaches. You, on the other hand, are uniquely UNqualified, not by gender, but because you have not done it. You've never coached a team. You have not dealt with hundreds of HS coaches, college coaches, and players. Yet you still feel the need to interject yourself into the matter because of your issues with TRhit.

Now, if you have coached travel teams, high school teams, or even youth teams I will humbly withdraw my statement. But, just so we are absolutely clear, my definition of coaching means being in the trenches, not "coaching" from the other side of the fence, or via cell phone.

I am not saying that women cannot understand baseball. They can even develop an understanding of the fundamentals. After watching him for years my wife can sometimes see things that my son is doing wrong. But she cannot correct them because she is not a coach.

Your opinion is not worthless because you're a woman. It's worthless (ON THIS SUBJECT) because you are not, never have been, and never will be a COACH.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by MTH:
If you were a travel team coach, or had ever dealt with HS coaches (other than the one who coached your son), you would know the answer to your questions.

No kidding, I could have told him that and I am just a momma. Are you saying something is wrong with being one? Do you think that just being a mom means you don't know much? That's the problem here I guess, you guys think because you are a man, woman's opinions or input means nothing.

It doesn't really take an experienced coach, who claims so much experience to figure it out, does it?

MTH,

Along with many great ones, I've seen a lot of absolutely horrible travel coaches through the years and can tell you that I would value TPM's opinion, without ever coaching a team, long before theirs. The fact that you actually feel the need to distinguish what women can and cannot correct tells me something about where you come from.

TPM has a son who has pitched in high school, in the ACC and now in professional baseball. He has had some incredible highs and dealt with difficulty and injury. She's been around baseball and obviously has tuned in very well. Just her experiences with her son qualify her to discuss pitchers and innings pitched, even if she never coached a travel team.

I could not care less if TPM and TRHit don't like each other. I respect them both and enjoy their contributions on all subjects.

Lastly, there is no one on this forum who has the right to say that anyone's opinion, for any reason, is worthless.

I don't think that coaching has anything to do with this, any person, coach or not, if they take the time, can find out how many innings a pitcher put in, good example is a suggestion by Midlo, follow your players. Now if you are signing them up right before summer season begins, then you got a lot of work to catch up on, don't you? Recruit more local players instead of trolling the internet, this way you can keep tabs on them, or get to know them personally, if you are so worried about them lying. Sorry, but good players/pitchers that are truely interested in their bb future, don't lie.

Also what are your objectives for your program, if you specifically have showcases or tournaments for exposure and the win is secondary, HS starters can be relievers and relievers starters, just like they do in the college summer leagues, or you have enough pitchers on staff as to NOT overuse despite whatever they told you they did. All teh coaches need ot see if the pitcher's stuff, the win is not so important, right? I do beleive that OP has stated that on many occassions.

You really don't have to be a coach to figure all of that out do you?

I'll say to you what the OP says to everyone, be careful of conclusions you draw, this is cyberspace, you truely don't know anyone, be careful of the conclusions that you draw, especially based on a person's gender.

Thanks, I appreciate that baseballdad.

I'll lay off when the OP learns to lay off as well, especially with moms.

There are a lot of moms here that won't post because of exactly what MTH and others have alluded too, that's bad news.

BTW, as a pitchers parent, I am gonna make sure that summer coach I pay my son lots of money for isn't gonna abuse my pitcher, it works both ways. There are also a lot of "bad" summer coaches out there as well, don't lump just HS coaches in that group.

TPM

As the OP I don't see where I got into gender in any discussion---many women understand the game very well, my wife being one of them---

And yes having been or being a coach has a lot to do with ones viewpoint and I do not believe you have ever coached, at least not at the HS or travel level and certainly limits your perspective or anyones perspective for that matter.

You really haven't had much experience with HS coaches have you? Some of them won't even take the time to call scores in to the local paper. If you live in an area with only two or three HS teams you might be able to keep track of players. BUt if you draw from metropolitan areas, or several states, there is no way to do it unless you can get accurate information from coaches and players. Some kids, like some parents, will do whatever it takes to get on the elite teams. If you had coached travel teams, you would know this. Instead you choose to speculate based on what you think you know.

So, smart players who want a future in baseball don't lie? I guess that smart, underage kids don't walk across campus with a beer in their hands, risking arrest for illegal possession either do they? Oh wait, yes they do. Kids (not all and not yours of course), do dumb things, no matter how smart they are.

I do not know TRhit. Don't know what kind of coach he is or anything else. But unless you are totally off your rocker you must admit that he has tremendous experience in this area, and a track record helping a lot of players play college ball. You (AND I) cannot touch that. He asked a legitimate question. Your response added nothing other than to throw gas on the fire, which was your intent all along.

Look, there are areas where you can and do provide good information to the people who frequent this site, but this ain't one of them.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
I don't think that coaching has anything to do with this, any person, coach or not, if they take the time, can find out how many innings a pitcher put in, good example is a suggestion by Midlo, follow your players. Now if you are signing them up right before summer season begins, then you got a lot of work to catch up on, don't you? Recruit more local players instead of trolling the internet, this way you can keep tabs on them, or get to know them personally, if you are so worried about them lying. Sorry, but good players/pitchers that are truely interested in their bb future, don't lie.

Also what are your objectives for your program, if you specifically have showcases or tournaments for exposure and the win is secondary, HS starters can be relievers and relievers starters, just like they do in the college summer leagues, or you have enough pitchers on staff as to NOT overuse despite whatever they told you they did. All teh coaches need ot see if the pitcher's stuff, the win is not so important, right? I do beleive that OP has stated that on many occassions.

You really don't have to be a coach to figure all of that out do you?

I'll say to you what the OP says to everyone, be careful of conclusions you draw, this is cyberspace, you truely don't know anyone, be careful of the conclusions that you draw, especially based on a person's gender.

Reluctant to jump into this debate for a variety of reasons...but I could not disagree with the 2nd part of this statement more.

quote:

Look, there are areas where you can and do provide good information to the people who frequent this site, but this ain't one of them .

How do you know what I know and what I don't?

Once again, in another topic, we hear about how players are being babied, not throwing enough innings, then how they don't throw enough. I asked for clarification, that was it, and I and anyone else has the right to do that.

Yes kids do stupid stuff, they are kids, what does that have to do with this? Why would a kid have to lie to get on an elite team? I am going to assume an elite team has the upper hand, and they are gonna make sure that if they are going to showcase players to coaches they claim they know, why would a coach not check out each player? Man I remember what son had to do to get on an elite team, personal references from teachers and coaches, or you didn't play, he had to make sure that who he was going to showcase to the coaches he knew where what they were looking for in their program. Isn't that how these elite teams do it?

BTW, since the OP beleives that a players parent may not be qualified for baseball advice, I don't beleive that because someone makes money from the game of baseball, that necessarily makes them an expert, do you?

Guess what? Travel coaches do dumb things too. There also are a few who are are nothing more than check collectors who line their pockets with the dollars of well-intentioned parents who want the best for their child. However, in some cases, these unknowing parents find out too late that that their money would be better used for warmth if they had lit it on fire.

There are travel coaches who bring too many kids to tournaments because the bigger the roster, the bigger the bank account. Seen that, haven't you? Lots of kids on benches and lots of unhappy families. Coaches will tell players and their parents that the D-1 scholarship is around the corner, at the end of the ride he will take them on. Too often, that ride ends with lots of excuses and profound disappointment.

Being a travel coach in of itself does not make you a smarter baseball person, nor does it give you insight others cannot acquire. Sorry, but the job description doesn't call for things like extraordinary intelligence, telepathy or psychic powers to do it well. Certainly, these traits would be helpful...

I know TRHit. My older son played in a tournament he hosted a few years back. He runs a tremendous program with College Select and is altruistic in his desire to help players. His baseball knowledge is extraordinary. There are other tremendously talented and highly thought of travel coaches on the HSBBW - Coach May and Midlodad come to mind - with the experience, integrity and their hearts always in the right place.

It's not always the case, just like lumping every young man into a doing dumb things category. Just being a travel coach doesn't give you a the combination to some special baseball vault of knowledge. You have to be good at it, like anything else, to set yourself apart.

Starting with the premise that players lie, that players risk arrest by drinking beer, or simply that they do dumb things is juvenile and irrelevant. Just ask the player about his situation. If he lies and you are a travel coach worth the salt in your body, won't you know it pretty quickly? I don't know where some of you live but the high school coaches around here take care of arms and share information with all who ask. I guess it's good to pay astronomical property taxes to live in a place where its easy to acquire baseball information if needed.

I encourage everyone with any level of experience to continue to contribute on any topic. What everyone says is important.

Shame that some here feel the need to bash HS coaches and players.

Good points made above that may be viewpoint from a parent, nothing more aggravating then signing your player up for the summer as a regular for the team and then the coach begins to bring in other players for weekends while yours sits. Anyone ever encounter that problem?
Plus how the heck can you keep track of a pitcher's innings when you got them coming and going, or they just play weekends for you. Of course they are going to play multiple teams, doesn't that make sense.

I don't think one has had to coach a team to know that this exists and happens, frequently. it works both ways, summer coaches want honesty, but many of them don't feel they have to be. JMO.

Wait, it's a "shame" that people bash high school coaches but it's okay to bash travel coaches that you don't like? Not much hypocrisy or illogic there. But wait, you didn't flat out bash a specific coach, you just implied and insinuated.

Personally, I think it's okay to point out coaches that abuse/use/misuse players no matter what level. There are good ones and bad ones everywhere.

I don't disagree with your comments about parents being upset when travel teams bring in "ringers" for tournaments. I'd be ****ed too.

There is certainly arm abuse in travel ball, but based on our limited experience I think it is moreso at the lower and younger levels than the upper level teams. Frankly, I saw more arm abuse in HS ball. There are several coaches around here that would not hesitate to throw a kid 130-150, sometimes as high as 170 pitches. And these are guys that have been doing it for years. How much cooperation would you expect those guys to give you? Now is that "bashing?" Call if what you will.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
Shame that some here feel the need to bash HS coaches and players.

Good points made above that may be viewpoint from a parent, nothing more aggravating then signing your player up for the summer as a regular for the team and then the coach begins to bring in other players for weekends while yours sits. Anyone ever encounter that problem?
Plus how the heck can you keep track of a pitcher's innings when you got them coming and going, or they just play weekends for you. Of course they are going to play multiple teams, doesn't that make sense.

I don't think one has had to coach a team to know that this exists and happens, frequently. it works both ways, summer coaches want honesty, but many of them don't feel they have to be. JMO.

MTH,
The coach is just getting back what has been dished out over the years.

FWIW, I and others have NEVER done anything to deserve it and even when asked by moderators or the website owner to stop, it still continued, and still does. It makes me upset to see people remove their informative posts because a certain coach likes to target.

It's old, REAL old, it just doesn't work here anymore.

It works both ways. Be more tolerant and compassionate of all, that includes everyone, not just those you feel you have to impress, and you might be better received. I don't care if you are from the north, south, east, west.

I am done now, I think I made my point.

TPM

Do you really think that ANYONE comes on here looking to impress ???